Do you believe in Spiritual gifts?

WordGaurdian · Jun 10, 2011

Ok. nice one. So "Forever" means END OF AGE.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

My concept of everlasting is kind of living with God FOREVER.
So umm. Houstan, we have a problem. If we only live until the end of our ...age. then woops. Forever, does not really mean eternal. WE ALL GONNA DIE!

Just a joke. No serious Zone. forever means end of age? I don't see it.

I agree that love, hope and faith lasts forever. Why? Cause the Bible says so. However I think it is more like for eternity...and not just for an age.

But I guess we both tire of this thread by now. Up to now you couldn't give any scripture as to what you are saying to be true.
and I fear I'm going to neglect the people that I could've helped with their questions if I keep on trying to explain this to you. You obviously have strong faith in the matter and made it a life's mission to believe. So let's just agree to disagree on this matter. At least we both believe in Christ. So one day in Heaven when we are both in heaven God can reveal to us that which we missed in life.

Blessings to you.

zone · Jun 10, 2011

WordGaurdian said:

So have you found a scripture yet? Indicating that the spiritual gifts seize?
Merely curious...

Something else I would like to ask you concerning the question you asked me. If I say Yes. it would be merely be a person writing and there would be no proof of me that I actually did hear God's voice. And from what I have learned so far from you, you won't just take someone at their word. Nor do I expect you to. I wouldn't either. But for the sake of friendliness the answer is yes. But on that basis I wish to ask you something...

Why do you think Jesus is called the High Priest of our faith?
Why do you think the curtain in the temple was torn.
What was the purpose of the High Priest?
If God wanted us to talk to Him via someone else, why make Jesus the High Priest?
What would be the purpose of the Holy Spirit if we couldn't listen to Him?

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

How can He teach us if we do not hear Him? Or listen to Him? How did the disciples of Jesus?
If the Holy Ghost is not in our lives today...how would it even be possible to learn the things that Jesus taught?

What does it mean to be born again, if you cannot enhance spiritually? John 3. How can you enter the Kingdom of God? How can you enhance spiritually if you cannot listen to God. For growth comes through obedience.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Nor shall they enter into His Kingdom...
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

How do you know the will of the Father for you in this very minute or hour or even day?
How would you know it, if He doesn't say it to you? Of course we need to love one another.
But let's take a practical example.

Say you are about to buy a house or a car? How do you know it is the Father's will without listening?
More so and even more important. Say you are busy counselling someone or talking to that person about Jesus, how do you know that the words coming out of your mouth is the Father's will that you must say those exact words if you didn't listen to hear what He wanted you to say?
How do you know you have given the advice God would have given to that person. In fact how would you know about things in their lives without the revelation of God showing you the things that they are to shy or ashamed to talk about. How would you aid them? And more importantly, how without listening would you be able to be at peace knowing that the advice you gave might not have been what God intended for those people to hear. For if you listened and spoke the words that God told you to speak, there is no fear. There is no doubt. And sometimes even a miracle follows. And that person would immediately sense the fruit of God's spirit. Why because the Holy Spirit worked. And because Jesus said that we should test on the fruit, He would always deposit His fruit. So immediately that person would feel joy, peace or any one of the fruit of the spirit automatically. But if you do not listen, but speak out of your own understanding, you might even give somebody good advice, no doubt. But would it have been the advice God would have given?

And more importantly without it, could you really spiritually grow? Is spiritual growth based on knowledge of the Bible (which is also important) or is it more based on a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Now think on this. If you cannot have a two-way conversation with any person on earth, we as humans would struggle to keep a relationship with that person. How do you expect to have one with God from a human's side without communication in both directions.

But then again. Maybe you know all this already and I merely wrote it for someone else on this site who does not hear His voice. Just remember, and this I would say to everybody including myself. You cannot fake a relationship. You either have it, or you don't. If I claim I have a girlfriend, but never listen and talk to her. (forgive the comparison) then how can I claim I have a girlfriend.

If I create a fanclub and talk about her all the time, make t-shirts,etc but I never listen to her. How do I even know how she is feeling about something. Or what is her opinion. The same with God. How can you claim to be one of His, go to church all the time. But never listen to Him in your daily life. (don't get me wrong Going to Church to learn more about God is good) But if you don't listen to Him when you are busy in your life. While you are doing things, discussing it with Him. Two-way discussion. How on earth and Heaven for that matter, are you going to know what His opinion is about what you are doing?

Example: Sometimes God tells me to go a certain person and talk to him about a specific thing. Sometimes I have not even met the guy. Then I go talk to him about it, and I can literally see how God touch that person's life. When me and my wife were still in the friends phase, she was deaf. So God said, ok you can go and invite her this afternoon to you house and then you can heal her deafness. I did so. And yes, so did God. He took away her deafness and gave us one of our most precious moments of running outside into the rain so that she could hear the wind in the trees and the birds and the wind and the droplets of water. If I didn't listen to God, she would have remained deaf. I say this so God can get the honour for this and that people can start a relationship with Him and start listening to Him. How else do you think it must be done? Jesus said that He has done nothing if the Father has not shown it to Him. He did that so we could have an example. We should listen to God. For it is not us that can perform miracles. But God.

I apologise if I come over a bit strong, Zone. But I really feel some people need to know this, even if not you.

May you have joy today!

Something to consider.

Peace be with you

here are some books you would enjoy:

they describe how to live SUPERNATURAL LIVES...how to receive IMPARTATIONS AND STUFF.
how to hone your Apostle skills etc.

the ususal suspects involved.

go for it.

Global Awakening Store : Beautiful One 2010 COMBO (DVD & MP3)

WordGaurdian · Jun 11, 2011

zone said:

Thank you so much for the information. to be honest, I don't really believe in buying the Gospel unless it is to buy a bible. But thanks all the same.

I believe that freely you have received, freely you must give...

But a thoughtful idea though...(don't really know any of those people though, being a south african and so on.
But I can see why you won't believe them, selling the knowledge they have...Don't blame you.

I don't even know if I want to know what they say.

vahn · Jun 11, 2011

Zone, would you agree that Satan attacks Christians unequally and that each and every one of us are called to do great things for Christ?

No part in the body is more important, even though the truth may be that some of us are afflicted more than others.

Jullianna · Jun 11, 2011

Good thread, AnandaHya. Particularly like the tree illustration first shown.

I've been walking with the Lord for over 20 years now and have seen the power, edification and healing that results when those in the body who recognize their gifts use them in submissive service to the Lord time and time again.

zone · Jun 11, 2011

vahn said:

i totally agree.

~

what in the world does that have to do with the occult invasion into the church via the charismatic movement and the rewriting of Christian history to justify this NEW THING?

this had a starting point in recent decades, and is most defininitely headed to an end point.

it has EVERYTHING to do with deception, and lying signs and wonders. what is seen in (mainstreaming into) Christian circles today is just a "sanitized" version of an old, old thing. it has a PURPOSE.

IF you want to consider it, to peel back the veil a little, just look into this man (for example):

David du Plessis (1905-87)

not popular, but continuing anyways,
zone

~
Boiling frog

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The boiling frog story is a widespread anecdote describing a frog slowly being boiled alive. The premise is that if a frog is placed in boiling water, it will jump out, but if it is placed in cold water that is slowly heated, it will not perceive the danger and will be cooked to death. The story is often used as a metaphor for the inability of people to react to significant changes that occur gradually.[1] According to contemporary biologists the premise of the story is not literally true; a frog submerged and gradually heated will jump out.[2][3] However, some 19th century research experiments suggested that the underlying premise is true, provided the frog is brainless or the heating is gradual enough.[4][5]

zone · Jun 11, 2011

WordGaurdian said:

it has nothing to do with them selling anything ($).

it has everything to do with WHAT they are selling.

(p.s: they have knowledge alright....partake of it and see what happens to you....if it hasn't already)

zone · Jun 11, 2011

WordGaurdian said:

Jeremiah 15:14
I will make you serve your enemies in a land that you do not know, for in my anger a fire is kindled that shall burn forever.”

did God's anger burn FOREVER against them in this case?

or were they Graciously restored?

tell me: when every enemy including death is swallowed up in victory, every tear is wiped away and the former things are forgotten, what will you need faith and hope for?

if you just admitted you are not an Apostle, you might see the truth: but since you want to be one, you'll continue to wrestle with those scriptures.

2 Peter 3
Final Words
14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

zone · Jun 11, 2011

zone said:

zone · Jun 11, 2011

The Prophetic Movement in Our Time

Truth Matters Newsletters – May 2011 – Vol. 16 Issue 5 – The Prophetic Movement in Our Time by Robert S. Liichow

Discernment Ministries International

The Prophetic Movement in Our Time

By Robert S. Liichow

“Christ cannot return until His ascension gift ministries have brought the Church into full manhood.”
Prophet Bill Hamon

D.M.I. has received several e-mails expressing concern over the so-called “Prophetic Movement,” and we have been urged to write again about what is going on in this popular and growing segment of the charismatic renewal.

Throughout the post-apostolic history of the Church there have always been people who have claimed to be “prophets” speaking a newly revealed divine word from God. Without exception, every one of these individuals has been rejected by the orthodox Church. Certainly, these deluded individuals have had their followers but by in large these folks remained at the fringes of Christianity and their impact was slight.

It was not until the 1940’s that the concept of God restoring the office and ministry of the prophet became popularized and this mainly through the ministry of William Branham. Branham boldly declared himself “God’s prophet.” The validation for his claim was the alleged sign gifts; the word of Knowledge, the word of wisdom (1) (see 1 Cor. 12:8) and divine healing. Due to his apparent ability to reveal past and present events (including embarrassing sins) of peoples lives coupled with the various testimonies of divine healing proved to the less astute that God was indeed with Branham. In their minds, God was confirming Branham’s word with signs following (see Mark 16:20).

In 1947 a Pentecostal minister named George Hawtin, the head of what was then called “The Sharon Work” in North Battleford, Saskatchewan and several students and faculty attended a Branham meeting they even received an impartation from Branham through laying on of hands. Hawtin and his followers went back to their school marveling at what they had seen and experienced. At the same time a book written by Franklin Hall, a Pentecostal teacher and healer was being widely circulated among Pentecostal believers entitled “Atomic Power with God through Prayer and Fasting.” (2) Hall claimed that God was not only restoring all the sign gifts back to the Church (nothing new in that claim) but that He was going to cause a group of super-saints to arise, believers who would be physically immortal!

These super-saints, aka manifest sons of God (3) (see Rom. 8:19) literally will take dominion over the entire world and then present it, a Christianized planet to the returning Jesus.

The Branham encounter and Hall’s writings had a profound effect on George Hawtin and in the summer of 1948 the Sharon Brethren held a revival meeting which attracted that generation’s hungry sign-seekers (read Jesus’ opinion of such in Matt. 12:39) Hawtin and ministers interpreted the advent of Branham, Hall’s revelations, and the subsequent revival meeting at Sharon as being proof that what was happening to the Church was nothing less than the beginning of the outpouring of God’s “Latter Rain.”

Please understand that sign-gift people throughout Church history have interpreted the Pentecost of Acts 2 as being the “former rain” of God’s which would vastly overshadow anything done in the time of the former rain (see Hosea 6:3; Joel 2:23).

Almost every group of restorationists have claimed that their group was the recipient of the “latter rain.” The heretic Montanus (4) in approximately 170 AD was one of the first sign-gift restorers to make such claims. Edward Irving in England, thought he and his group were oing to restore the Church. In America, Alexander Dowie claimed to be Elijah, the Restorer in his “holy” city of Zion, IL. He had planned to build Zion’s all over the world, but after his declaration of being Elijah he was stricken with a stroke, and his plans to establish the Kingdom of God on earth never materialized. The people at Azusa widely claimed to be receiving the latter rain. David Wesley Myland wrote the first Pentecostal treatise on this belief entitled “The Latter Rain and Pentecostal Power.” (5) Now almost exactly 40 years later a new generation of sign-gift folks were laying claim to being those chosen to receive the latter rain of God’s Spirit! These extremists made such a strong claim regarding the latter rain, that their fledgling movement became known as “The New Order of the Latter Rain”.

Discernment Ministries International

zone · Jun 11, 2011

Restoration of the Church Is Key

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the time of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:19-21.

Ever since Montanus various people have risen up claiming that God is restoring some facet of “lost” truth through them. This is particularly true for Latter Rain disciples. Jesus must remain in the heavens until God has restored all things lost to the Church. One thing all the restorationists agree about is that the Church has been a failure. The Body of Christ seems to have trouble holding onto things the Spirit of God reveals to it. Ultimately such beliefs cast aspersions upon the Head of the Body, which is Christ Jesus.

Bill Hamon, who can probably be rightly considered the father of the modern prophetic movement has written prolifically on the theme of this alleged end-time restoration of the ministry of the prophet and apostle. Naturally, he himself is a restored prophet, who has recently received the mantle of apostle.

According to Hamon, there are nine distinct eras in which God has successively restored “lost” truths to the Church.

Not only is the Acts 3:19 text used as proof of the need for restoration, the Prophetic Movement teachers also cite Hebrews 6:1-2 to further bolster their argument:

<snip> see link

Therefore, leaving the principles of the doctrine of Chrison unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Hebrews 6:1-2

Hamon and the other Latter teachers interpret this text to be dispensational in the following manner:

<snip> see link

When the first six doctrines are restored, then the seventh one, ultimate perfection, can be restored. Doctrine number five, the resurrection of the dead, and number six, eternal judgment, will produce a Church restoration movement before the general resurrection and the great white throne eternal judgment. (9)

Hamon continues to write in his book that it is the Prophetic & Apostolic Movements which will be the key to bringing about the restoration of doctrines 5 & 6 which then ultimately bring to pass number 7, ultimate perfection.

Under the larger aegis of “restoration,” the Latter Rain Movement of the late 1940’s and early 1950’s had other specific doctrinal beliefs, which have become part of the Charismatic movement in general.

Discernment Ministries International

zone · Jun 11, 2011

** Some of the major distinctions, which separate them from the orthodox Church, are:
Restorationism -This further development of restoration theology viewed God as progressively restoring truths to the church since the Reformation.

Fivefold Ministry- The teaching that God is restoring apostles and prophets to the church to function with the three other gifted offices: evangelists, pastors, and teachers (Eph. 4:11). Apostles and prophets provide direction with new revelation that will play a major role in paving the way for Christ’s second coming. Remember that Jesus cannot return until the prophets & apostles are fully functioning. Hamon goes so far as to make dispensations oout of these to in the following manner.

Laying on of the Hands- A ritual by which the restored apostles and prophets are “anointed” to impart the Holy Spirit and other spiritual blessings and gifts to yielded vessels.

Prophecy- Views the practice of “personal prophecy” as being restored to the church. Prophecy would no longer be restricted to general words of exhortation, but would include personal detailed revelations for guidance and instruction. Prophecy is also given to entire congregations for direction. All “Spirit-filled” Christians can prophesy, but not all are called to be prophets.

Recovery of True Worship - The belief that God’s manifested presence is dependent upon a certain order of worship involving singing in tongues, clapping, shouting, singing prophecies, and a new order of praise dancing. It is common in most charismatic services to have long praise and worship services, which will include corporate singing in tongues, corporate dancing, as well as dance “ministry.” Waving banners, pageantry, ritualized dance are all seen as a restored truths.

Immortalization of the Saints - The belief that those believers moving in the truth of Latter-Rain restoration, not necessarily all in the church, will attain an immortal state before Jesus returns. This message has been toned way down and it is not currently being taught openly, but it is discussed in private pastor level meetings.

Unity of the Faith- The doctrine that the church, usually perceived to be a band of overcomers in neo-Pentecostal ranks, will attain unity in the faith before Christ returns. The main hindrance to this unity is doctrine. Bible doctrine divides believers, thus all that divides must be set aside and people must unite around the truths (doctrines) being currently revealed by the restored prophets and apostles.

Deliverance - Latter Rain disciples emphasized a strong belief in the power of demons to inhabit Christians. Christians could be demon possessed and various “deliverance” churches and ministries sprang up to cast demons out of believers.

By 1950 these basic tenets of the New Order of the Latter Rain (NOLR) had become dogma to many sign-seekers. However, all was not happiness and joy within the Pentecostal arena. Branham was teaching that all denominations (including Pentecostal ones) were the great whore of Babylon and that true believers must come out from among them in order to be saved.

The Sharon brotherhood was busy telling people that they were the only ones authorized to impart gifts (various other ministries began to claim this ability too). These concepts decimated the Assembly of God denomination. Many A/G pastors left their denomination and became independent congregations and placed themselves under the authority of the new prophetic presbytery of the Sharon brotherhood.

This problem was so severe that the A/G leadership in 1950 held a conference and the leadership produced a statement that denounced the doctrines of the NOLR as heretical. Some pastors returned to the A/G and it seemed that much of the initial energy of the NOLR was diminished. NOLR teachers were more or less shunted to the sideline of the sign-gift believers…yet they did not stop teaching and writing books.

Even though the A/G’s stand for doctrinal truth was commendable, the damage had already been done. The “genie” of restored prophets, and later on apostles, had been let out of the proverbial bottle and there was no way to get him to go back in. Hundreds of independent latter rain congregations were being formed apart from any denominational oversight and from these churches the errors of the NOLR were propagated and expanded.

In 1952, after reading Hall’s book on how to gain “Atomic Power” from God Hamon dedicated himself to fasting. After a long fast, a prophet came to his church and spoke a word over him, a word that changed the direction of his life. What as the result of this prophetic encounter? “For some thirty years later, Bill would be raised up as a pioneer and a worldwide leader in restoring the offie and ministry of the prophet into Christ’s Church with full recognition and authority.” (11) Here is one of Hamon’ more famous revelations:

That company of prophets is being raised up in the 1980’s. God revealed to me that there are 10,000 prophets on the North American continent along being prepared to be released within the Church. (12)
In the 6,000 years of recorded biblical history there are less than 30 individuals named as genuine prophets of the Lord! Yet, Hamon says “God” revealed to him that there are 10,000 prophets in America alone.

Hamon’s revelation is more in line with the Bible where it says:

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1

A plethora of false prophets invaded the early church and now 2,000 years later, we are again being inundated with these deluded people.

Hamon is the individual who is behind the very lucrative concept of holding “School of the Prophets” seminars where people can come for a very high fee and have the prophetic gift imparted to them or released by Hamon or the other prophets participating in the meeting. Remember Hamon is the product of an independent latter rain church that is why he firmly believes he has the ability to bestow spiritual gifts and/or release them in the sign-seekers life.

When the prophet lays hands on and prophesies gifts and callings to a person, his words have the Christ-gifted creative ability to impart, birth, and activate that ministry into the member. (13)

Discernment Ministries International

loveschild · Jun 11, 2011

unclefester said:

People act like it's a big deal for a Christian to have a demon in them or attached to them. I don't know why.
Ever known a Christian who had hate in their heart? Ever known a Christian who hasn't forgiven someone? I have. There are many on this site.
To hate or not forgive opens a door way form hell and allows demons to come into people, yep even Christian people. Happens all the time.
Whens the last time you had hate? Have you forgiven every person of everything? Have you?
Ever been jealous of anyone? Seen that guy driving down the street in his new shinny car and wished it was you and not him. How come he has that and not me Lord? Or did you say wow God that is so cool that guy is so blessed to have that new shinny car.
People make holes in their hedge of protection bu what they do. It is not God taking the protection away from them. It is the people giving place to Satan bu not obeying the commands of God not to hate, not to forgive and being jealous and more that makes holes in the hedge of protection letting Satan enter.
Possession is another matter.
A Christian having demons in them or on them is happening all the time.
They die from lack of knowledge.
Can't teach people who think they know it all already though, can we?

Red33 · Jun 11, 2011

Zone,

Aside from the gifts of the Spirit, what part does Satan have in the present evil world we live in and against the church today? Is he actively seeking whom he can devour (1Pt 5:8)? Is he presently active blinding the minds of those that believe not (2Cor 4:4)? Is he tempting believers (1Cor 7:5, 1Thes 3:5)? Is he presently trying to beguile believers from the simplicity that is in Christ (2Cor 11:3)? As the prince and power of the air (Eph 2:2) in this present evil world (Gal 1:4), does this point to him being confined in any way or does he have the ability to transform himself as an angel of light (2Cor 11:14)?

Practically speaking, are all believers who discern and are aware of his devices (2Cor 2:11) and the lies that he perpetrates (Jn 8:44), some how self deceived and disillusioned because he is presently in confinement locked away for a future release according to (Rev 20:2)? If he is locked and bound up and has been since the ascension of Christ, why is their so much deception and why is the church divided in many areas of the faith? Of the (6) billion+ people that live on this planet, are they all free from being oppressed of the devil?

If Satan has been bound, explain the following scripture and how these things could have happened in relationship to the church after the death, burial, resurrection and ascension of Christ:

Acts 5:3 But Peter said , Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

1Cor 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.

1Thes 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

1Tim 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme .

Jm 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you

silverwind · Jun 11, 2011

Satan is not bound.
Satan is very much hard at work because he knows he has but a short time. He will be bound upon the return of the Lord. How can anyone believe otherwise, when Scripture is pretty clear? It blows me away.............

Dude653 · Jun 11, 2011

uhhhh.... Can someone tell me what boiling a frog has to do wit gifts of the spirit??

dmdave17 · Jun 11, 2011

False apostles were predicted in Scripture. Jesus, himself, acknowledged that there would be false claims. "Jesus answered: 'Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.'" (Matthew 2:4-5) And in Revelation, the writer quoted God, "I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false." (Revelation 2:2, emphasis added)

As Christians, we must continuously be on our guard against those who claim to be apostles. In today's environment, it can be very easy to be led astray.

NoahsMom · Jun 11, 2011

How can anyone believe otherwise, when Scripture is pretty clear? It blows me away.............

10-4 sister...................

WordGaurdian · Jun 11, 2011

Very interesting History Lesson. I didn't know about half of that.

Look I don't know about Bill Hamon's idea whether it be true or false. I personally don't think that the Second Coming of Christ has anything to do with us being restored to the former church... There is no scriptural proof of that. I do know of the scripture that says only after we spread the gospel over all the world will the end come. But does not say anything about the church how it must look like. Well I'm speaking under correction here of course on this part since I generally don't worry to much about that part. You see I am a here and now kind of guy. If I get raptured...or die and go to heaven now, tommorow or over 40 years or even 1000 years (if I live that long) it really doesn't matter as long as I do the will of God and obey His commandments now until forever...whoops eternity. Forgot it has a different meaning for you.

Look why did the disciples obtain the gifts in the first place...
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:18 they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

These gifts were given to spread the gospel and edify and aid the church. Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit is the Helper and the one that will remind us of what has been taught. If anything these gifts are MORE important now then it was then, when Jesus was still fresh in everyone's mind. For the gifts are not just for the believers but also the unbelievers. Let me give you an example. We went on a mission up in Mosambique. It is just north of South Africa. When we worked their among the people, we talked to them about Christ. While we were there adding to our testimony God increased food, healed sick and lame people. Now what testiment does that person have of God. Not only did he hear about God, but also got healed by Him. Which you can imagine (i mean the one guy walked 11 kilometers to us the next day after he got healed the previous night where he couldn't get out of bed) these people talked amongst themselves. What is more believable...think about it. A God that we proclaim heals, but ... uh sorry ...not anymore. OR Our God heals and the sick gets healed around you and even yourself.

You know why people don't want to admit that the gifts are still there, it is because it means they could have asked and received in their own lives countless times before, but has been believing that they can't.

And again, there is still NO SCRIPTURAL PROOF that any gifts that was mentioned in the BIBLE has CEASED to exist.

As to the people you mentioned with the DVD's and MP3's for sale ... If people ask money for anything of God, I DON'T listen to it. It's a principle with me. Your welcome to listen to it, but I don't.

I do however believe in the BIBLE.
I am not interested in moneymaking schemes of people. The Lord knows enough harm has come from that.

The disciples did not get the gifts to have a spree of power to show how great they are and then end in nothingness. That would be ridiculous. We are the servant. God is the master. God is to be glorified, we are to work for His glorification.

Look, right throughout the Bible did God do a lot of great miracles. From beginning till the end of the Bible. Why would He suddenly change His mind and now for the next couple of thousand years...woops sorry - God doesn't proof His existence, and anywhere where there was some kind of healing...well that is just the devil in disguise?

Hey does that even make logical sense? A loving God showing everybody how great and loving He is for a generation and then just dissappear. And every time there is a gift being used for healing in honour of God, it is done by God's enemy the devil.

That backed up by NO scriptural evidence. But there is scriptural evidence saying the gifts will no longer be needed if we go to heaven and therefore it will be taken away with only LOVE HOPE AND FAITH that will remain because then we would no longer need to get healed, etc.

The last time I checked I wasn't in heaven yet. Nor was there the second coming of Christ (except if I missed it on what was it the 11th or something...

).

WordGaurdian · Jun 11, 2011

dmdave17 said:

I couln't agree more. But I want to point out something...

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2Pe 2:1 But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction

The Bible specifically warn us of this. I totally agree. Test the spirits and here is the KEY part, whether they are of God. Because there are many false prophets. With this God didn't say there is no more prophets. Because why would you need to test a prophet to see whether he is of God, if there are no more prophets. Would it not be easier then to say that there is no more prophets in the world. After us, there will be no more apostles.

Let's take a look at this next verse.

Act 13:6 And when they had gone through the whole island unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Bar-Jesus;

Woops. Here is a false prophet in their time. Does that mean no suddenly all the prophets and apostles and so forth and all the gifts were now nullified?

Of course not. That would be ridiculous. However, that said. Be careful, because there are still false teachers out there and still false apostles and still false people. Be careful, not because I say it, but because the scripture says so. It also says that we must do the following:

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Why were the gifts given. To aid us in our task on earth BEFORE we go the HEAVEN. I don't think I need to tell anyone the task. But think about it. Did God EVER send someone somewhere and not provided for him the tools for the task which he was commanded to do in the Bible. I've never found it.

If all the gifts which Paul speaks about in Corinthians and Ephesians were given to:
1Co 12:7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit to profit withal.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Are we now at such a stage of perfection in christianity that we no longer need edification. To we no longer need to work in the ministry. Do we no longer need to be perfected. Would the manifistation of healing be useless, cause there is no one sick or is there still sick people that can profit from God's healing?

Yes, I agree. We must not be led astray by false teachings, doctrines that are false, nor false prophets or false apostles. I totally agree. But God would not say test them, if there was no need for testing.

There are true prophets, apostles, etc and there are false prophets, apostles, etc.
How would we know the difference.

Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

This has always been the message. It is scripture.
So yes, test the apostles. I agree. Test everyone for that matter. Test me. Please. But test me on that which the Bible says. Test me on my fruit of my spirit. For there is not one scripture stating that any gift has fallen away or has come to an end. But yes, I agree Test all that claim to be apostles. Look and ask God to aid you to understand the difference between a True Apostle and A false one, so that you may abide also in this that you have tested every spirit.

Blessings and peace be with you.

Do you believe in Spiritual gifts?

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