Do you believe there is going to be a pre-tribulation rapture?

[Deep_MindQuest]

the whole 7 years id wraith as already pointed out so post tribers do call God a lier they do it all the time everyone can see that as there exposed repeatedly but they ignore that hard core fact and will then just say, no its not, no its not etc then try switching to another subject or verse when they should be repenting admitting there guilt asking God and others for ther apology for being caught in lies and deceptions. but it makes you wonder cause the unsaved would never repent never admit there bad post trib manmade theology was exposed and certainly they would never pray, all they would do is ignore there obvious guilt ignore there exposed Bible twisting and continue spreading twisted versions to try and decieve people that are new to studying the Word and wouldnt know any better, thats why its the same 3 or 4 people doing this evil on just about every thread every post it dont take a genious to see who they are and what there real motives are.
of course though it could be that the unsaved are blinded by the god of this world like it says in in the Bible! it always exposes satans workers .
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
this is a strong possability even probability as to why some dont understand the real Bible even when its right in front of there face!
of course this looks more like its just being done on purpose just to try and cause confusion and chaos but thats ok the Word shines true on the pretrib rapture and post trib will always be wrong and verses of the second coming will always be misused to attempt to make it look like a rapture when its clearly not. these things are just how lack of knowledge works its the same way they twist truth around on others and accuse others right after there exposed themselves. what really matters is they have no substance and have failed miserably and the Bible exposes them time and time again quite easily!!

 

[Deep_MindQuest]

Proof that we are
Saved from the Wrath to come
Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

Ro 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God.

Ro 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath.

Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Ro 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

Ro 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Ro 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Ro 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

What we "clearly" see here is that the wrath of God is ONLY for the unsaved. There is nothing in scripture to indicate that the wrath of God will be poured out upon Christians during the Tribulation. In fact we see the opposite. Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Yes we are saved by the blood of Jesus from the wrath to come.
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

This day of wrath is the Tribulation period of the book of Revelation.
Re 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.
Re 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Now there are all kinds of debate as to where this wrath begins in Revelation. The fact is that it begins right at the start of the Tribulation in Re. 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

So how do we know that the wrath begins at the start of the Tribulation? We know this for one single simple fact. First begins the judgment of the Seals as they are opened. Then out of the 7th Seal come the 7 Trumpet judgments. Then out of the 7th trumpet comes the 7 Vials.

We can clearly see here that there is no separation of judgments. In other words they are all different aspects and degrees of the one judgment known as the Tribulation.

An example of God's judgment is found in the story of the parting of the red sea. First you have the 10 plagues that progressively get worse, then God pours out His final judgment wrath in the form of of the Red Sea crashing down upon Pharaoh.

In Revelation we have the Seals and Trumpet judgments followed by the intense out pouring of the Vials which are incredibly intense.
Re 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

So why isn't God just going to protect us through the Tribulation like he did with Israel and the Red Sea?
Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The fact is that since the out of the Seals come the Trumpets, and out of theTrumpets come the Bowls, this shows that they are ALL interconnected. This means they all are part of the Tribulation and therefore all are part of the Wrath of God. In scripture the Seals will kill off over a "forth of all the earth" with war and hunger and wild beasts. If that is not the Wrath of God upon the earth, then what is it? God's blessings?

So in closing I would like to say that we "wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

 

[watchmen]

the whole 7 years id wraith

This is more false pretrib teaching not biblical at all.

Pretrib ''Theologians'' teach that Jesus comes before the tribulation, secretly in the clouds, to snatch the church from the earth, and take us to Heaven. So that we will miss the tribulation period, spending it in Heaven, celebrating the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. While the unbelievers are left behind to suffer the wrath of God here on earth.

Sounds real nice, only problem is, the Bible never teaches that Jesus comes before the tribulation. It doesn't say there will be a secret return of Christ at all. It never teaches us that we go to Heaven after the resurrection and/ or ''rapture'' of the just. The Bible does not say that we will miss the tribulation period, it does not say that the Tribulation is the wrath of God, nor does it say when or where the Marriage Supper of the Lamb takes place. You will not find any aspect of the pretrib teaching in scripture.



The entirety of the pretrib doctrine is unbiblical propaganda.

 

[Deep_MindQuest]

I know the difference between the 2nd coming and the rapture. The 2nd coming is when Christ returns, and the rapture is when the saints that survive the Tribulation are translated into their immortal bodies. The Bible tells us that the rapture happens at the 2nd coming. It is you that call God a liar.

the rapture is when church age saints before the trib are called up to meet Jesus in the air the people saved after the rapture are tribulation saints you sure have made massive mistakes and twists in Gods word when you cant discern church age saints from tribulation saints and cant even tell ot from nt and cant tell law periods from Grace. this must be why you cant discern anything about the rapture because if for you theres no diffrence in what it was like before Jesus came and after he came then you must not think anything changed at all hence he accomplished nothing on the cross and came for no reason, what a twisted belief im glad Christians generally know better then to think like that because it certainly doesnt leave you with much to believe in. when he said IT IS FINISHED HE MENT IT IS FINISHED. for saved people anyway, if anyone has a relationship with Jesus they would know theres a big diffrence in saved people and how God deals with them compared to how hes going to deal with the unsaved people. but you just mix them up without rightly deviding and without any discernment and hence try to make the Word say anything you want to mix it up to say. well the whole 7 years is Gods wrath as proven and saved people wont be going thru Gods wrath!!
i can see why you call God a lier so often though without rightly deviding you dont devide anything and just read it anyway you were taught and want . things change when you actually study stuff like the rapture i hope you reach that point one day

 

[Deep_MindQuest]

This is more false pretrib teaching not biblical at all.

Pretrib ''Theologians'' teach that Jesus comes before the tribulation, secretly in the clouds, to snatch the church from the earth, and take us to Heaven. So that we will miss the tribulation period, spending it in Heaven, celebrating the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. While the unbelievers are left behind to suffer the wrath of God here on earth.

Sounds real nice, only problem is, the Bible never teaches that Jesus comes before the tribulation. It doesn't say there will be a secret return of Christ at all. It never teaches us that we go to Heaven after the resurrection and/ or ''rapture'' of the just. The Bible does not say that we will miss the tribulation period, it does not say that the Tribulation is the wrath of God, nor does it say when or where the Marriage Supper of the Lamb takes place. You will not find any aspect of the pretrib teaching in scripture.



The entirety of the pretrib doctrine is unbiblical propaganda.

you have no idea what your talking about thats abvious, if you knew about the fact Jesus is fixing to marry the church his bride you wouldnt have saved christans trying to go thru terrible tribulation Jesus wont beat his bride then marry her the ideas ignorent and a sure sign of not knowing him to think hes that way

 

[watchmen]

the rapture is when church age saints before the trib are called up to meet Jesus in the air the people saved after the rapture are tribulation saints

More unbiblical pretrib propaganda. When are you going to lay aside your man made doctrine and start believing God?

 

[Jezreel]

More unbiblical pretrib propaganda. When are you going to lay aside your man made doctrine and start believing God?

The majority of people do not care whatsover. Even with all the horrible things that are going on in our country they feel that because the Lord is coming to wisk them away, they don't have to be involved with speaking up and don't know that they will be very accountable. It is easier to hear a teaching that makes things easy for them. Unless a person is severly hungry enough to know God, it is just easier to believe what they are told and even mock God. It is like that really posting on "outside the camp". I did not write it. Only one person I guess is mature enough to call it "meat"? and understood it!! I didn't consider it to be that hard for others to grasp. It may be sad but true but maybe many of us are such babes that it is too hard to grasp the seriousness of what is going on. Jesus said, "Woe unto them that give suck in those days". Not only it is a terrible outcome for the innocent babies who are at the breast but milk fed babies inthe Lord are not going to make it either. Only those who are in to the meat of the word are going to make it.

 

[Deep_MindQuest]

You will certainly get an argument from all the post-tribbers on this. They see the tribulation as a purging and cleansing of the church! Don't they read their Bibles? If people could only grasp the difference between Israel and the church, and God's plan and destiny for each, they would have no trouble seeing that the church does not go through the tribulation.

How can people who have the Holy Spirit come to two diametrically opposing views? How is that possible? The Holy Spirit leads us into truth. How can one person receive the truth and the other receive "error"? Does that mean that one of them is listening a different spirit?

This is a serious question.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Bible says that Jesus Christ Himself purged us of our sins:

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Hebrews 9: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

From what else do they think we need to be "purged," after Jesus Himself purged our sins? Not to be irreverent, but Jesus doesn't do halfway-competant jobs. He did His task perfectly! What he accomplished at the cross, was once-for-all. We who are saved, are perfected forever!

Hebrews 10: 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Hebrews 10: 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

It is my thought that those who have a church-must-go-through-the-Trib-to-be-purged are really doing injury and insult to the perfect salvation Jesus accomplished at the cross. Yes, it is true that we sin in our mortal existence here on this side of eternity. But as far as Heaven is concerned, we are as perfect in the sight of God as Jesus Christ Himself, because God's own righteousness has been imputed, or reckoned, to our account, meaning, His righteousness is counted as our righteousness.

Romans 4: 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Also, we are already "cleansed":
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we are cleansed from ALL unrighteousness, then why do they think we have to go thru the Trib to be "cleansed?"

There just seems to be a trace of human pride in these points of view, that we are going to get shown to be worthy by our suffering under the terrible depredations of Satan and the Antichrist and False Prophet. In any event, these points of view seem to make the salvation wrought by God through faith in Jesus Christ just needing that "extra" touch to make us "just right", in effect (whether they realize it or not) saying that what Christ did for us WAS NOT ENOUGH!

We are saved by grace through faith alone! Some people cannot bear that thought. By their viewpoint, it has to be faith plus something, anything, something that we as humans have to add, but not faith alone!

Jesus didn't need our puny help to pay the blood price to purchase His bride, and He won't need any of our puny help to retrieve His Bride. The Partial Rapture, Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath, and Post-Trib all have fundamental Scriptural problems, but even when careful Scriptural analysis shows the Pre-Trib view is the correct one, the defenders of the other Rapture viewpoints won't admit they are wrong. Instead, many of those defenders get uncharitable toward Pre-Trib Rapture proponents, using ridicule, straw-man arguments and non-sequiturs instead of sound judgment and careful reasoning from the Scriptures.

The more I study eschatology, the more I see the Pre-Trib Rapture for the Church, and the Tribulation for Israel. May the rest of God's born-again children get it right: Pre-Trib Rapture only!

 

[watchmen]

You will certainly get an argument from all the post-tribbers on this. They see the tribulation as a purging and cleansing of the church! Don't they read their Bibles? !

It is you that seems to not have read their bible. More likely as Jezreel said, you just don't care what it says. If it doesn't line up with your false man made doctrine you will ignore it.

 

[watchmen]

How can people who have the Holy Spirit come to two diametrically opposing views? How is that possible? The Holy Spirit leads us into truth. How can one person receive the truth and the other receive "error"? Does that mean that one of them is listening a different spirit?

I agree with this statement and warn you to repent from listening to the spirit of error, and begin to hear what God is really saying.

 

[watchmen]

The more I study eschatology, the more I see the Pre-Trib Rapture for the Church, and the Tribulation for Israel.

This is because your mind was made up before you began your study and have left no room for God to correct your false assumptions.

 

[AnRev]

You will certainly get an argument from all the post-tribbers on this. … they would have no trouble seeing that the church does not go through the tribulation.

Not so, read this: “After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands…..Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” Rev 7:9 thru 14

All Christians will go through the tribulation. As you can see the number of them is so great that no one can number them. (billions) The problem you have is that you believe in the seven year tribulation that has been taught for decades. That is as FALSE as FALSE can be.

How can people who have the Holy Spirit come to two diametrically opposing views? How is that possible? The Holy Spirit leads us into truth. How can one person receive the truth and the other receive "error"? Does that mean that one of them is listening a different spirit?

Remember that Satan delayed Daniel from receiving his message for 21 days. If Satan can delay Gabriel for 21 days, then delaying a person from seeing the truth is no issue and he can delay them their whole life through.

The Bible says that Jesus Christ Himself purged us of our sins:…purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

You don’t know what sin is my friend.

It is my thought that those who have a church-must-go-through-the-Trib-to-be-purged are really doing injury and insult to the perfect salvation Jesus accomplished at the cross.

Change of view?

…Also, we are already "cleansed"…..If we are cleansed from ALL unrighteousness, then why do they think we have to go thru the Trib to be "cleansed?"

No one thinks we “have” to go through the tribulation to be cleansed.

There just seems to be a trace of human pride in these points of view, that we are going to get shown to be worthy by our suffering under the terrible depredations of Satan and the Antichrist and False Prophet. In any event, these points of view seem to make the salvation wrought by God through faith in Jesus Christ just needing that "extra" touch to make us "just right", in effect (whether they realize it or not) saying that what Christ did for us WAS NOT ENOUGH!

Yes, your pride and others like you.

but even when careful Scriptural analysis shows the Pre-Trib view is the correct one, the defenders of the other Rapture viewpoints won't admit they are wrong. …The more I study eschatology, the more I see the Pre-Trib Rapture for the Church, and the Tribulation for Israel. May the rest of God's born-again children get it right: Pre-Trib Rapture only!

Try studying the bible instead.

“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.” Dan 9:26

“Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.” Dan 9:27

This is used by many to teach about the false seven year tribulation. If you read and understand what you read then you can see that the subject here is the Messiah. Since Jesus is the Messiah we know that Daniel is talking about him.

Jesus was cut off during the seventieth week, half way. He preached for just over three years before dying on the cross. He was cut off by the “people of the prince who is to come,” (Satan) We know it is Satan because Jesus said: “You are of your father the devil.” John 8:44 Hence you have the people of Satan put Jesus on the cross, not Satan himself.

The rest of the week will be finished after the tribulation. “And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.” Rev 13:5

For your information, we are going through the tribulation even now as I speak. The tribulation started back when Jesus left. The Antichrist was here then as well and the apostle John talked about it, so it is NOT going to show up in the future. The Man of Sin is Satan, not to be confused with the Antichrist which is a spirit that teaches false things.

The billions of people who have come through the great tribulation are the believers in Christ and they, like you are now, were faced with the same Antichrist and Man of Sin we are faced with today. You’re also mixing the wrath of God with the tribulation. So, which side did you say you were on?

 

[Deep_MindQuest]

Not so, read this: “After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands…..Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” Rev 7:9 thru 14

All Christians will go through the tribulation. As you can see the number of them is so great that no one can number them. (billions) The problem you have is that you believe in the seven year tribulation that has been taught for decades. That is as FALSE as FALSE can be.

A MISTAKEN IDENTIFICATION
Brother Rosenthal identifies, "they which came out of great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14) as the church. The "church" is in heaven BEFORE the first seal is opened. These are in fact the "tribulation saints":

"Fourth, in Revelation 6 John immediately recognizes the martyrs as those who "were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held" (v. 9). In Revelation 7 it is clear that John does not recognize who this great multitude is. To the question directly proposed to John, "Who are these?" (v. 13), he gives this response: "Sir, thou knowest" (v. 14), a clear admission that he did not recognize them.

If this great multitudewhich suddenly appears in heaven, which no man can number, and which has universal representationare not martyrs, who are they"

This great multitude, innumerable, universal, and suddenly appearing in heaven with white robes (purified) and palm branches (triumphant), is the raptured church" (pp. 184-185).

HERESY! Brother Rosenthal teaches that the multitude seen in Rev. 7:9-14 is "the raptured church"! The reader should kindly take note that these "which came out of great tribulation" are seen AFTER the sixth seal (Rev. 6:17) and BEFORE the seventh seal (Rev. 8:1)! Brother Rosenthal uses this as an argument in his book for the PRE WRATH RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH. However we have already seen "the church" in heaven BEFORE the first seal is opened. Let us go on now and establish that these over a hundred million in heaven are in fact the church.

Can we find any other references to this multitude "which came out of great tribulation" (Rev. 7:9-14) so that we can identify them? Thank God, we can!

144,000
First of all we notice that the 144,000 male, virgin (Rev. 14:4), Jewish servants of God (Rev. 7:1-8) were also singing "a new song before the throne" in heaven (Rev. 14:3). They were singing a new song which no other man could learn! They were seen in heaven before the seven vials containing the seven last plagues were poured out upon the earth (Rev. 15-16). Therefore the MULTITUDE singing "a new song" BEFORE the opening of the FIRST SEAL cannot be the same as the 144,000 singing "a new song" (which only the 144,000 could learn) in heaven AFTER the opening of the SIXTH SEAL!

TRIBULATION SAINTS
Secondly, we again see the tribulation saints, and there is no doubt that they are they which went through part of the great tribulation. Read the following account:

Rev. 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

These "that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name" are the same as "they which came out of great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14). They both are said to have come out AFTER the opening of the SIXTH SEAL! They CANNOT be the church, which was raptured BEFORE THE FIRST SEAL!


Remember that Satan delayed Daniel from receiving his message for 21 days. If Satan can delay Gabriel for 21 days, then delaying a person from seeing the truth is no issue and he can delay them their whole life through.



You don’t know what sin is my friend.

sin is something already taken care of at the cross you need to learn about Jesus and how he took care of that issue and quit trying to pay for it yourself by going thru great tribulation all you have to do is actually read up on the Bible


Change of view?

No one thinks we “have” to go through the tribulation to be cleansed.



Yes, your pride and others like you.

you dont have to go thru the tribulation if your a saved christian its those that think they will accomplish something by going thru it that are full of pride

Try studying the bible instead.

“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.” Dan 9:26

“Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.” Dan 9:27

This is used by many to teach about the false seven year tribulation. If you read and understand what you read then you can see that the subject here is the Messiah. Since Jesus is the Messiah we know that Daniel is talking about him.

Jesus was cut off during the seventieth week, half way. He preached for just over three years before dying on the cross. He was cut off by the “people of the prince who is to come,” (Satan) We know it is Satan because Jesus said: “You are of your father the devil.” John 8:44 Hence you have the people of Satan put Jesus on the cross, not Satan himself.

its talking about antichrist not messiah thats the horrible flaw in post trib that will have people calling the antichrist God study up see the terrible flaw setting people up to wotship the antichrist your teaching in that.

http://jesus-is-the-way.com/Endtimes927.html Why Daniel 9:27 is Essential to Understanding Prophecy

All this discussion may sound "nitpicking" to the extreme, but it renders Daniel 9:27 ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL to END-times prophecy.

Given the truth of what we have said so far, the next conclusion that MUST be drawn is this-

The "Prince that shall come" is INDEED the antichrist and can be NO OTHER personage
The rest of the week will be finished after the tribulation. “And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.” Rev 13:5

For your information, we are going through the tribulation even now as I speak. The tribulation started back when Jesus left. The Antichrist was here then as well and the apostle John talked about it, so it is NOT going to show up in the future. The Man of Sin is Satan, not to be confused with the Antichrist which is a spirit that teaches false things.

The billions of people who have come through the great tribulation are the believers in Christ and they, like you are now, were faced with the same Antichrist and Man of Sin we are faced with today. You’re also mixing the wrath of God with the tribulation. So, which side did you say you were on?

we go thru regular trials and tribulations we wont go thru The tribulation thats the 7 years dont confuse them you need to use discernment instead of mixing scripture and subjects anyway you want to. you need to rightly devide the Word not just mix it to your human made views thats not deviding at all.


Christians Experience Tribulations not the Great Tribulation

Confusion between tribulation and the Great Tribulation: The post-Tribulation rapture will argue that the Bible says that Christians will go through tribulation; therefore, it would follow that they would go through the seven-year period known as the Great Tribulation. It is true that the Bible tells all Christians that they will go through trials and tribulations in their life:

“In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” (NKJ: John 16:33)

“And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope.” (NKJ: Romans 5:3-4)

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.” (NKJ: II Corinthians 1:3-4)

“Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my boasting on your behalf. I am filled with comfort. I am exceedingly joyful in all our tribulation.” (NKJ: II Corinthians 7:4)

“For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.” (NKJ: I Thessalonians 3:4)

But this tribulation is from the world not from God; whereas, the terrible events occurring during the seven-year Great Tribulation period are directly from God. In addition, in regards to the tribulation Christians will face from the world, we are to find joy and are to grow spiritually, “My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.” (NKJ: James 1:2-4) This is not true during the seven-year Great Tribulation in which God’s wrath will be poured out onto the world because of their sin and rebellion against God:

“For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.” (NKJ: Matthew 24:21)

“Alas! For that day is great, so that none is like it; and it is the time of Jacob’s trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.” (NKJ: Jeremiah 30:7)

“At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, every one who is found written in the book.” (NKJ: Daniel 12:1)

There is a distinct difference between the tribulation we face in our every-day walk, and the seven-year period referred to as the Great Tribulation.

 

[AnRev]

Deep_MindQuest, No my friend, I am not misguided. What you fail to understand is the last week given to Daniel and who Jesus brought on that which makes desolate because when he left the ruler of this world came. That ruler is SATAN and the Tribulation started.

what is so great about the tribulation is not the mass damage of it, it is the duration of it. Every person endures famine, disease, earthquakes, droughts, and so forth in some way or another. Wise one, tell me where it says there is a seven year tribulaiton if you're so educated. You can't, because it isn't there.

Show me wise one, where is it?

 

[AnRev]

And now call Jesus a liar again since you seem to be good at it. Show the world how you say that what Jesus said IS NOT TRUE!!

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days." Mat 24:29

Yes oh wise one, it says AFTER the tribulation of THOSE DAYS. Keep calling Jesus a liar.

 

[Deep_MindQuest]

post trib call Jesus i liar that was already clearly pointed out a few times all you have to do is stop pretending you didnt see it, unless as the Bible says satan has blinded the unsaved people of the world which could be why you dont see the obvious , mathew 24 was already proven to not be the rapture several times so just open your eyes and quit pretending your so in the dark on whats been studied and proven for all with eyes to see. and quit calling God and his Word a lier its wrong of you to just call him a lier so much christians wouldnt do that!

 

[Deep_MindQuest]

Question: "What is the Tribulation? How do we know the Tribulation will last seven years?"



Answer: The Tribulation is a future 7-year period of time when God will finish His punishment of national Israel and at the same time judge the unbelieving world. The Church, made up of all who have trusted in the person and work of the Lord Jesus to save them from being punished for sin, will Not be present during this time on earth. The Church will be removed from the earth in an event known as the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). The Church is saved from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 5:9). Throughout Scripture, the Tribulation is referred to by other names such as:



1) The Day of the Lord (Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, 9; Joel 1:15, 2:1, 11, 31, 3:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2)

2) trouble or tribulation (Deuteronomy 4:30; Zephaniah 1:1)

3) Great Tribulation which refers to the most intense second half of the 7-year period (Matthew 24:21)

4) time or day of trouble (Daniel 12:1; Zephaniah 1:15)

5) time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7)



An understanding of Daniel 9:24-27 is necessary in order to understand the purpose and time of the Tribulation. This passage in Daniel speaks of 70 weeks that have been declared against "your people." Daniel's "people" are the Jews, the nation of Israel, and what Daniel 9:24 speaks of is a period of time that God has given to: "to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy place." God declares that "70 weeks" will fulfill all these things. It is important to understand that when "70 weeks" is mentioned, it is NOT speaking of a week as we know it (7 days). The Hebrew word (heptad) translated as week in Daniel 9:24-27 literally means "7" and 70 weeks literally means 70 sevens (70 times 7). This time period of which God speaks is actually 70 sevens of years, or 490 years. This is confirmed by another part of this passage in Daniel. In verses 25 and 26, Daniel is told that the Messiah will be cut off "7 weeks and 62 weeks" (69 weeks total) beginning with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. In other words, 69 sevens of years (483 years) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, the Messiah will be cutoff. Biblical historians confirm that 483 years passed from the time of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time when Jesus was crucified. Most Christian scholars, regardless of their view of eschatology (future things/events), have the above understanding of Daniel's 70 weeks.



With 483 years having passed from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the cutting off of the Messiah, this leaves 1 seven (7 years) to be fulfilled in terms of Daniel 9:24: "to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy place." This final 7-year period is known as the Tribulation period--it is a time when God finishes judging Israel for their sin.



Daniel 9:27 gives a few highlights of the 7-year Tribulation period. Daniel 9:27 says, "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." The person of whom this verse speaks is the person Jesus calls the "abomination that makes desolate" (Matthew 24:15) and is called the beast in Revelation 13. Daniel 9:27 says that the beast will make a covenant for 1 week (7 years), but in the middle of this week (3 1/2 years into the Tribulation), he will break the covenant, putting a stop to sacrifice and grain offering. Revelation 13 explains that the beast will place an image of himself in the temple and require the world to worship him. Revelation 13:5 says that this will go on for 42 months, which is 3 1/2 years. Since Daniel 9:27 says that this will happen in the middle of the week, and Revelation 13:5 says that the beast will do this for a period of 42 months, it is easy to see that the total length of time is 84 months or 7 years. Also see Daniel 7:25 where the "time, times, and half a time" (time=1 year; times=2 years; half a time=1/2 year; total of 3 1/2 years) also refer to Great Tribulation, the last half of the 7-year Tribulation period when the "abomination that causes desolation" (the beast) will be in power.



For further references about the Tribulation, see Revelation 11:2-3 which speak of 1,260 days and 42 months and Daniel 12:11-12 which speaks of 1,290 days and 1,335 days, all of which have a reference to the midpoint of the Tribulation. The additional days in Daniel 12 may include the time at the end for the judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46) and time for the setting up of Christ's millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6).

 

[Deep_MindQuest]

How Do We Know Daniel's Seventieth Week Is Also the Seven-Year Tribulation Time Period?
by Dr. Renald Showers

We've been talking about a seven-year period of time between the Rapture of the Church from the world and the glorious Second Coming of Christ immediately after the Great Tribulation. What's the basis for this idea of this seven-year period of time between those two events? The foundational passage for that seven-year period of time is in the Old Testament, specifically in Daniel 9:27.

Just to give a little background so we understand, when you begin with verse 24 of Daniel 9, Daniel is receiving some incredible revelation from God through the Angel Gabriel. In that revelation God was mapping out ahead of time His long-range extended program for Israel in the future.

He says in verse 24 that "seventy weeks [literally "seventy sevens"] are determined for your people [Daniel's people; that would be Israel] and for your holy city"—that would be the city of Jerusalem.

What he's saying here is this: God had determined seventy periods of time for Israel in the future, but each one of those seventy periods of time would consist of seven years. That's the idea of seventy sevens.

Why seven-year periods? Well, when you go through the Old Testament you find that God had set up a unique calendar system for Israel that was based upon seven-year cycles. For six years they were to till the ground and grow their crops. But then every seventh year was to be a sabbatical year in which they would allow the land to rest and restore its energy. Then for six more years they would till the ground and then the next seventh year would be a sabbatical year and they would let it rest.

So God had designed Israel's calendar system in seven-year cycles and that's what He's doing in this prophecy. Seventy cycles of time, each one of those cycles consists of seven years. So seventy times seven, means that 490 years were involved altogether.

When you read that prophecy from verse 24 up through verse 26, we find that the first 69 of those cycles was fulfilled when Jesus presented Himself to Israel officially as its Prince, its coming King. The New Testament would indicate that Jesus did that when He made His triumphal entry into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday.

Then when you examine that prophecy in depth you find that there is a gap of time between the end of the 69th cycle of seven years and the beginning of the 70th, or last cycle of seven-years. You and I right now are living in that gap of time.

That tells us, therefore, that the last cycle of seven-years has not yet begun. We could call that the 70th week, or the 70th seven. And that last cycle of seven years is what many Bible scholars have come to call the Tribulation period because there will be forms of tribulation here in the world throughout that seven years.

 

[AnRev]

Deep_MindQuest Everything you say is what has been taught for many years now, it is old news and very inaccurate. I know you will disagree with me because you have faith in what you have learned, but perhaps others would like to see the truth.

Let's start with Dan 9:25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times."

The word "until" has been used here. Jesus was here 30 years before he began his ministry. Therefore, 69 weeks had to pass by until he started his ministry or else the prophecy is invalid. The 69 weeks ended and Jesus started his work. This started the seventieth week.

Now look at 9:26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined."

Jesus was cut cut off by the people of the prince who is to come. Now let's see who that prince is. I will quote some of my work, consider the following:

Quote: Daniel talks about the desolate in Dan 9:26. “And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.”This tells us before the end happens that the city will be destroyed and made desolate by the people of the prince who is to come.

“And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." Dan 9:27 Since we know that the people will destroy the city, we also know that the prince is going to come as well. He is most likely the one who makes desolate by trying to destroy the kingdom of God that the Messiah was sent to restore. “Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.” Dan 9:25

The desolate is anything that is against God. To make something desolate is to bring an end to Godly things. But who is the prince of things to come and who brings on the desolate?

In order to confirm who the prince of the people is, who’s people will destroy the city and make things desolate, we need something to confirm that this is what will happen and see if we can find their leader. Since we know that Jesus has already come we need to look there and see if he said anything that can confirm this, which he did.

“I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.” John 14:30 This tell us that a ruler of some sort is coming to rule the world while Jesus reduces his communication with us and the apostles. This confirms what Daniel also said about a prince who is to come as well. So what did the people of this prince do that can be confirmed as well?

They put Jesus on the cross and in doing so Jesus identified who the ruler that is to come will be. “You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.” John 8:44 This tells us that the ones who were after Jesus, the people of the prince to come, are the children of Satan. This confirms the prophecy that Daniel talked about because the people put Jesus on the cross and not Satan himself.

So how do we know the prince is Satan? We find that in the book of Revelation. “He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;” Rev 20:2 This tells us that Satan is the devil, so when Jesus said “You are of your father the devil,” he was talking about Satan. Therefore, we now know that the prince who was to come is none other than Satan. Plus, we now have a connection between Daniel, Jesus, and the book of Revelation, and a war that Ezekiel talks about with Gog and Magog.

But who brought on the desolate? The people did when they put Jesus on the cross. But in some others words, Jesus brought on the desolate because he started the restoration of the kingdom of God and in the middle of the week he was cut off just as prophesied.End Quote.

This is why the Antichrist is not the Man of Sin, Satan is.

Quoting more:

Jesus is the one who confirmed the covenant with many. Jesus is the one who ‘in the midst of the week’ caused the sacrificing to end with the age of grace, and in turn that is what has brought on that which makes desolate when he handed over things to Satan, ‘for the ruler of this world is coming.’

This same covenant is also mentioned in the book of Ezekiel as well. “Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.” 37:26

Notice this, neither God nor Daniel, nor Jesus ever said that the covenant would be broken. So why do so many preach this? It is because they are using the scriptures out of the text and meaning that they have. The covenant will never be broken. End Quoting.

The seventieth week is half over. Jesus ministered for just over three years and then he was here for awhile longer. This way he left in the middle of the week just as Dan 9:27 tells us. The remaining of the week is mentioned in Dan 12:11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days." and Rev 13:5 "And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months."

The daily sacrifice are the believers in Christ. The taking away is the Rapture. Satan is given 42 months to continue the 70th week where he will bring on the mark of the beast. This happens before the wrath of God that you are calling the tribulation. The actual time limit of the wrath has not been given anywhere in the bible.

"I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ." Rev 1:9

The tribulation started when Jesus left and Satan took over and it will end when he is seen coming back with the clouds. The Antichrist came into existence and John told us about it. The Antichrist is not the Man of Sin, Satan is. There is no rise of a future Antichrist, there will be the time where Satan proclaims himself as God. THERE IS NO SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION.

 

[watchmen]

post trib call Jesus i liar that was already clearly pointed out a few times!

The only thing you have proven is that you do not care what scripture teaches, you are going to worship your false doctrine instead of God, and His truth.