Do you stand with Israel?

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E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#61
Read Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel and God says that he will divorce them and make a new covenant with a people that have the law written in their hearts and inward parts. Daniel 10 says that Israel will lie desolate until Jesus returns to consummate his marriage with the church. God's covenants are conditional and Israel has never lived up their end and God replaced them. Today's Israel performs no sacrifices and has NEVER accepted the Lamb that was to come during Daniel's 70 weeks or 490 years after the temple was allowed to be rebuilt. Note also that 92% of today's Jews are Ashkenazim while the scriptural seed of Abraham were Semitics, not Europeans and at the least Sephardic. Read the English Septuagint.
God's covenant to Abraham concerning canaan was not conditional.

God even put abraham to sleep, and walked between the rows as was custom, Proving it was unconditional in nature.

WHy you people want to take Isreal and the land of Canaan and replace it with the church, Who has never possessd the land or the promises concerning the land is beyond me
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#62
That was just childish. Yet same as always. Tell people they are jew haters. Then throw in that
an eschatological view is about hatred. Or stemmed from it. Get a grip. Do people often call dispies
around here racists?
Why did you take offense? You evidently did not read what I said, because if you did you would have read this.

Not everyone who believes this hates jews, I am not saying this.
I stated this is where the belief came from. It is a fact that the early roman church were avid jew haters. even until the timer of Luther. He got it from his church, which he broke away from, but he took his belief with him.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#63
Jesus is the true Israel
Matthew 2:15
(15) And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Hosea 11:1
(1) When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

To belong to Israel we need to belong to Christ. Anyone who does not belong to Christ does not belong to Israel.

Galatians 3:29
(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



 
I

IMINJC

Guest
#64
eternally-greatful


YOU SAID: God's covenant to Abraham concerning canaan was not conditional.

God even put abraham to sleep, and walked between the rows as was custom, Proving it was unconditional in nature.

WHy you people want to take Isreal and the land of Canaan and replace it with the church, Who has never possessd the land or the promises concerning the land is beyond me



You are absolutely right here.
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#65
"Do you stand with Israel?"

only if Israel Stands with Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#66
Jesus is the true Israel
Matthew 2:15
(15) And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Hosea 11:1
(1) When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

To belong to Israel we need to belong to Christ. Anyone who does not belong to Christ does not belong to Israel.

Galatians 3:29
(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.





Yes, Jesus is true Israel. From Jesus is fulfilled the promise that in "Abraham shall all nations (jew and gentile) be blessed. This has always been a non Jewish covenant. we know this because many gentiles were saved even under the covenant of mosaic law, although not by that law.

Israel was going to be special, But with it came rewards and consequences.

There task was to be used by God to prove to the whole world his wonderous love. He gave them land as an Eternal promise. He told them (right before they entered the land) that if they followed him, and was not like th egentiles, he would show them special favor. They would not have to worry about rain, or harvest. Would not have to worry about enemies, God would protect them. They would live in peace. And through this. anyone on the outside looking in would see What God wanted to give us all.

He also gave them consequences if they turned from him. Cycles of discipline as found in Lev 26. With greatest discipline being removed from the land, The land and its temple destroyed, and the people scattered all over the world, Completely removed from its promised land (this literally did not occure until 70 AD, for even in time of babylonian captivity, there were many jews in isreal, even jerusalem had a king.)

However, This passage also shows a means of restoration. If they repent, Admit their sin, Admit that is twas the sin of their fathers which caused such great punishment to befall on them, And that God rightly judged them, He would restore the land, Restore them into the land. and keep his covenant with Abraham issac and jacob, He would give them all he promised in the beginning. And the world would then see, God is truely a God of love who keeps his promises.

We can slso look to the OT for toher things.

1. God prophesied Isreal would rebell and follow other Gods playing the harlot
2. God prophesied that because of this, he would fulfill the final judgment of Lev 26 (which he did in AD 70 completely)
3. God prophesied that the oracles and Gods representation would be passed to the gentiles (which was fulfilled at Isreals final rebellion again in ad 70, and is currently being fulfilled by the Church.
God also prophesied that at a time, The geniles also would commit the same sin of rebellion (they would really be no better) and eventually fall away just Like Isreal did. He also stated at this time would also follow a few events.

1. The end of Gentile dominion as per Daniels timeline of Gentile empires (babylon, media persia, Greece and Rome)
2. Each empire will be greater than the other
3. The 4th will gain great power. Fall apart and split, then be reformed greater than it was in its previous might. Out of this empire will come a man, who will declare war on the saints, and he will be given a certain time to do this, but at the end, he will be destroyed.
4. We are told that this time will not only include the beasts war against Gods saints, but also will be a time of Gods wrath, where things not seen before occure as God takes vengence (finally) on evil of the earth. This period is called a time of Great tribulation.
5. We are told during this time, That the beast will go after thw woman who gave birth to the prince (messiah) who is isreal. But the woman will be protected by God himself, so the beast will go after her children (the church)
6. We are told this hatred against the woman, and all the fierce struggle between man and God during this tribulation will finaly open Israels eyes, they will repent.
7. We are told at the same time (depending on what you believe, by either the rapture of the church, or the complete and under destruction of the church by the man of sin either killing them off, or causing them to leave (he who endures to the end) that the church will come to an end as we know it.
8. With both of these occurrence. God wakes up the bones of Israel, brings all Israel (from both kingdoms) back to the promised land. Destroys the gentiles nations who mistreated them whil they were in captivity, and restores them to what he promised to give them in the first place. They will recieve their king, And every nation on Earth will worhsip the messiah. That again, Gods representative on earth will be Isreal (but all nations will be saved, as salvation was never a national thing)

Now to paul.

Paul spends alot of romans telling us there is no jew or gentile, we are all free under the covenant.
He told us there was a spiritual isreal, and natural Isreal, and only SPiritual Isreal would be saved.

Then in Chapter 11 something changed.

paul again spoke of a difference between jew and gentile
He spoke of national isreal. How there were some elect, but most blinded
he spoke of how Gentiles were grafted in, and the natural branch was cut off.
He spoke of how the branches grafted in (gentile) would be used to cause jelousy among the natural branch
He spoke of how the branches grafted in will also fall ( the time of fulfillment of the gentile dominion) and at this time, The natural branches eyes will be opne ( they were blinded during this time) and "All Isreal (not spiritual but natural) will be saved.

so even Paul spoke of thes OT prophesy concerning th enatural children of Abraham and their covenant. For even he said they are our enemy because of the gospel (natural Isreal) but beloved because of the promise. The promise God gave abraham still stood. And God would fulfill his promise to them, when they repent.

why people want to reject this. refuse to answer why Paul spoke of natural isreal in chapter 11 as separate from spiritual isreal. and try to make him mean spiritual isreal is beyond me.

You all want to focus on the spiritual covenant and spiritual kingdom. Whcih WE ALL AGREE WITH 100%, But you do not want to look at the physical covenant God made with natural isreal.
 
D

dishchat

Guest
#67
I do not stand for all Israelite who are sinners. I stand only with those Israelite who are in Christ.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#68
Genesis 13:15-17
(15) For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
(16) And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
(17) Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.
Hebrews 11:10
(10) For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.


 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#69
Romans 11:25
(25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Luke 21:24-27
(24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
(25) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
(26) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
(27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

The times of the gentiles is not fulfilled until the return of Christ also Romans 11 says "until the fulness of the gentiles be come in." That is talking about gentiles coming into the kingdom as it mentions in Romans 11 about them being grafted in.
 
May 18, 2011
1,815
10
0
#70
Malo HaGoyim brother Lao, Malo HaGoyim.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#71
Romans 11:25
(25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Luke 21:24-27
(24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
(25) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
(26) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
(27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

The times of the gentiles is not fulfilled until the return of Christ also Romans 11 says "until the fulness of the gentiles be come in." That is talking about gentiles coming into the kingdom as it mentions in Romans 11 about them being grafted in.

We are in complete agreement as to when the time will end.
I am not sure we agree with what it means. Gentiles were grafted in even under the old covenant (King David's grandmother was a Gentile among others) And There will be many Gentiles grafted in also during the 1000 years.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#72
Why did you take offense? You evidently did not read what I said, because if you did you would have read this.



I stated this is where the belief came from. It is a fact that the early roman church were avid jew haters. even until the timer of Luther. He got it from his church, which he broke away from, but he took his belief with him.
Well yes id agree that i should read a bit better before i open
my big fat typewriter.
 
I

IamachildofGOD

Guest
#73
I don't know where it is at in the Bible but I have read it several time, If we go against Isreal then he will set HIS hand against us. This looks similar to what is going on in America. We had couple president's that wanted to go against Isreal by given their land away. Obama had warn Isreal not to attack Isreal. Look at where we are at now. The Jews rejected Jesus so he extended salvation to the gentiles (hope that is spelt right). We think that we are the ones who will be here during the tribulation preriod. We may be here for the begining but during this time Isreal is going to recognize who Jesus Christ was and will turn back to God. Don't go against what God has promised or have called his.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#74
I don't know where it is at in the Bible but I have read it several time, If we go against Isreal then he will set HIS hand against us. This looks similar to what is going on in America. We had couple president's that wanted to go against Isreal by given their land away. Obama had warn Isreal not to attack Isreal. Look at where we are at now. The Jews rejected Jesus so he extended salvation to the gentiles (hope that is spelt right). We think that we are the ones who will be here during the tribulation preriod. We may be here for the begining but during this time Isreal is going to recognize who Jesus Christ was and will turn back to God. Don't go against what God has promised or have called his.

Gen 12:
12 Now the Lord had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you

And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;

And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”


This is where that comes from.
 

Cleante

Senior Member
May 7, 2010
280
0
16
#75
I stand with the people of Israel as children made in the Image of God. I do not stand with the government of the State of Israel in regards to its treatment of Arab Christians in Palestine. Thirteen Christian leaders, all Palestinian Christians, wrote a document that detailed their struggles that arise as a result of Israeli policies.

PATRIARCHS AND HEADS OF CHURCHES
JERUSALEM

WE HEAR THE CRY OF OUR CHILDREN

We, the Patriarchs and Heads of Churches in Jerusalem, hear the cry of hope that our children have launched in these difficult times that we still experience in this Holy Land. We support them and stand by them in their faith, their hope, their love and their vision for the future. We also support the call to all our faithful as well as to the Israeli and Palestinian Leaders, to the International Community and to the World Churches, in order to accelerate the achievement of justice, peace and reconciliation in this Holy Land . We ask God to bless all our children by giving them more power in order to contribute effectively in establishing and developing their community, while making it a community of love, trust, justice and peace.

His Beatitude Patriarch Theophilos III, Greek Orthodox
His Beatitude Patriarch Fouad Twal, Latin Church
His Beatitude Patriarch Torkom Manougian, Armenian Orthodox
Very Revd Father Pierbattista Pizzaballa, Custody of the Holy Land
H.E. Archbishop Dr Anba Abraham, Coptic
H.E. Archbishop Mar Swerios Malki Murad, Syrian Orthodox
H.E. Archbishop Paul Nabil Sayah, Maronite
H.E. Archbishop Abba Mathaious, Ethiopian
H.E. Archbishop Joseph-Jules Zerey, Greek Catholic
Bishop Gregor Peter Malki, Syrian Catholic
Bishop Munib A. Younan, Lutheran
Bishop Suheil Dawani, Anglican
Bishop Raphael Minassian, Armenian Catholic


"...As Palestinian Christians we hope that this document will provide the turning point to focus the efforts of all peace-loving peoples in the world, especially our Christian sisters and brothers. We hope also that it will be welcomed positively and will receive strong support, as was the South Africa Kairos document launched in 1985, which, at that time proved to be a tool in the struggle against oppression and occupation. We believe that liberation from occupation is in the interest of all peoples in the region because the problem is not just a political one, but one in which human beings are destroyed..."

http://www.kairospalestine.ps/sites/default/Documents/English.pdf

CBS 60 Minutes Segment on Christians of the Holy Land - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5p8mZ-HN-0
 
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T

titus211

Guest
#76
God's covenant to Abraham concerning canaan was not conditional.

God even put abraham to sleep, and walked between the rows as was custom, Proving it was unconditional in nature.

WHy you people want to take Isreal and the land of Canaan and replace it with the church, Who has never possessd the land or the promises concerning the land is beyond me
All of God's covenants are conditional and Abraham OBEYED GOD, unlike Israel and Judah. Jesus will rule over the NEW Jerusalem that comes from Heaven and it encompassed the entire globe. There is no promised land for the unsaved.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#77
I stand with the people of Israel as children made in the Image of God. I do not stand with the government of the State of Israel in regards to its treatment of Arab Christians in Palestine. Thirteen Christian leaders, all Palestinian Christians, wrote a document that detailed their struggles that arise as a result of Israeli policies.

PATRIARCHS AND HEADS OF CHURCHES
JERUSALEM

WE HEAR THE CRY OF OUR CHILDREN

We, the Patriarchs and Heads of Churches in Jerusalem, hear the cry of hope that our children have launched in these difficult times that we still experience in this Holy Land. We support them and stand by them in their faith, their hope, their love and their vision for the future. We also support the call to all our faithful as well as to the Israeli and Palestinian Leaders, to the International Community and to the World Churches, in order to accelerate the achievement of justice, peace and reconciliation in this Holy Land . We ask God to bless all our children by giving them more power in order to contribute effectively in establishing and developing their community, while making it a community of love, trust, justice and peace.

His Beatitude Patriarch Theophilos III, Greek Orthodox
His Beatitude Patriarch Fouad Twal, Latin Church
His Beatitude Patriarch Torkom Manougian, Armenian Orthodox
Very Revd Father Pierbattista Pizzaballa, Custody of the Holy Land
H.E. Archbishop Dr Anba Abraham, Coptic
H.E. Archbishop Mar Swerios Malki Murad, Syrian Orthodox
H.E. Archbishop Paul Nabil Sayah, Maronite
H.E. Archbishop Abba Mathaious, Ethiopian
H.E. Archbishop Joseph-Jules Zerey, Greek Catholic
Bishop Gregor Peter Malki, Syrian Catholic
Bishop Munib A. Younan, Lutheran
Bishop Suheil Dawani, Anglican
Bishop Raphael Minassian, Armenian Catholic


"...As Palestinian Christians we hope that this document will provide the turning point to focus the efforts of all peace-loving peoples in the world, especially our Christian sisters and brothers. We hope also that it will be welcomed positively and will receive strong support, as was the South Africa Kairos document launched in 1985, which, at that time proved to be a tool in the struggle against oppression and occupation. We believe that liberation from occupation is in the interest of all peoples in the region because the problem is not just a political one, but one in which human beings are destroyed..."

http://www.kairospalestine.ps/sites/default/Documents/English.pdf

CBS 60 Minutes Segment on Christians of the Holy Land - Christians of the Holy Land - YouTube

Are you serious? NOT ONE thing said about what the Jewish government is doing, not one. This is nothing but garbage talk.
 

Cleante

Senior Member
May 7, 2010
280
0
16
#78
Are you serious? NOT ONE thing said about what the Jewish government is doing, not one. This is nothing but garbage talk.
Did you even bother to read the document? I don't think you did and your comment shows that.

But of course it is all garbage! There is no such thing as Arab Christians, right? :rolleyes:

Kairos Document said:
"...1.1 “They say: 'Peace, peace' when there is no peace” (Jer. 6:14). These days, everyone is speaking about peace in the Middle East and the peace process. So far, however, these are simply words; the reality is one of Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories, deprivation of our freedom and all that results from this situation:

1.1.1 The separation wall erected on Palestinian territory, a large part of which has been confiscated for this purpose, has turned our towns and villages into prisons, separating them from one another, making them dispersed and divided cantons. Gaza, especially after the cruel war Israel launched against it during December 2008 and January 2009, continues to live in inhuman conditions, under permanent blockade and cut off from the other Palestinian territories .

1.1.2 Israeli settlements ravage our land in the name of God and in the name of force, controlling our natural resources, including water and agricultural land, thus depriving hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, and constituting an obstacle to any political solution.

1.1.3 Reality is the daily humiliation to which we are subjected at the military checkpoints, as we make our way to jobs, schools or hospitals...

1.1.5 Religious liberty is severely restricted; the freedom of access to the holy places is denied under the pretext of security. Jerusalem and its holy places are out of bounds for many Christians and Muslims from the West Bank and the Gaza strip. Even Jerusalemites face restrictions during the religious feasts. Some of our Arab clergy are regularly barred from entering Jerusalem.

1.1.6 Refugees are also part of our reality. Most of them are still living in camps under difficult circumstances. They have been waiting for their right of return, generation after generation. What will be their fate?..
"
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#79
Originally Posted by Kairos Document
"...1.1 “They say: 'Peace, peace' when there is no peace” (Jer. 6:14). These days, everyone is speaking about peace in the Middle East and the peace process. So far, however, these are simply words; the reality is one of Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories, deprivation of our freedom and all that results from this situation: --- The Land of Israel is God ordained to the Jews. In the 2,000 years of being scattered abroad, there was nothing there but desert, with the few exceptions of huts here and there. It was God who brought the Jews back to their land. Now, look at it, what happened to the desert? As God has promised, it is an osasis again because of the Jews returning home.

1.1.1 The separation wall erected on Palestinian territory, a large part of which has been confiscated for this purpose, has turned our towns and villages into prisons, separating them from one another, making them dispersed and divided cantons. Gaza, especially after the cruel war Israel launched against it during December 2008 and January 2009, continues to live in inhuman conditions, under permanent blockade and cut off from the other Palestinian territories . --- Now, why do you think that is? Could it have anything at all to do with all the terror being caused by blowing things up by them?

1.1.2 Israeli settlements ravage our land in the name of God and in the name of force, controlling our natural resources, including water and agricultural land, thus depriving hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, and constituting an obstacle to any political solution. ---It is their land. Question, why didn't the coutries these "palestinians" came from want them back?

1.1.3 Reality is the daily humiliation to which we are subjected at the military checkpoints, as we make our way to jobs, schools or hospitals... --- If there was not such a hatred of the Jews, the daily rocket firing upon them, the continuious bombings, the riots, the TERROR of Islamic religion,
the constant threat upon the nation of Israel, then there would be peace. And everytime peace with concessions is offered and accepted, it is them which says, it is not enough, death to Israel". Do you think this has anything to do with it?

1.1.5 Religious liberty is severely restricted; the freedom of access to the holy places is denied under the pretext of security. Jerusalem and its holy places are out of bounds for many Christians and Muslims from the West Bank and the Gaza strip. Even Jerusalemites face restrictions during the religious feasts. Some of our Arab clergy are regularly barred from entering Jerusalem. ---Really, perhaps a very simple Google search will tell a different story. Of all the trash ever spoken from Islam this is about the worse double-faced trick in the book. Who does all the killings of anyone who is not Muslim? Which state permits 3 religions within its border? Which countries kill those who dare to even mock a mere man they consider a prophet?

1.1.6 Refugees are also part of our reality. Most of them are still living in camps under difficult circumstances. They have been waiting for their right of return, generation after generation. What will be their fate?.. ---So, why don't their own countries want or took them back?



I am sure there will be a death threat coming my way now by Islamic terrorists. But this is all trash. One only has to look for themselves as to who is really the agrressors.
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#80
Did you even bother to read the document? I don't think you did and your comment shows that.

But of course it is all garbage! There is no such thing as Arab Christians, right? :rolleyes:

"
it might be reasonable to question the christianity of a group that almost overwhelmingly supports terrorism...it seems there is little difference between palestinian christians and palestinian islamists...