Do you think what Jacob's son's did to Shechem was right?

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M

Mich223

Guest
#1
Jacob's son's massacred Shechem and his men (see Genesis 34) - do you think it was right that they killed these men? Afterall, they agreed to be circumcised. Do you think Dinah deserved what happened?
 
C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
#2
I think there is a righteous way and an unrighteous way to deal with this kind of situation. The kings's son, by the law of that time, chose a righteous way to deal with his wrongdoing. The sons of Israel chose an unrighteous way. There is still the judgement of God to be faced by all parties.
 
M

Mich223

Guest
#3
I have to agree with you they acted righteously and were dealt with harshly.
 
S

socperkins

Guest
#4
They tried to overcome evil with evil, and because of it they were later cursed when the other sons were receiving blessings.

Genesis 49:5-7 - Simeon and Levi are brothers; weapons of violence are their swords. Let my soul come not into their council; O my glory, be not joined to their company. For in their anger they killed men, and in their willfulness they hamstrung oxen. Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce, and their wrath, for it is cruel! I will divide them in Jacob and scatter them in Israel.

If they had gone to God first and asked Him what they should do, I'm sure things would have turned out better. And I don't think Shechem was acting righteously, I think he was being obsessive and possessive. He just raped a woman and now he's madly in love with her and needs her to be his wife. That sounds psychotic to me.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#5
They tried to overcome evil with evil, and because of it they were later cursed when the other sons were receiving blessings.

Genesis 49:5-7 - Simeon and Levi are brothers; weapons of violence are their swords. Let my soul come not into their council; O my glory, be not joined to their company. For in their anger they killed men, and in their willfulness they hamstrung oxen. Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce, and their wrath, for it is cruel! I will divide them in Jacob and scatter them in Israel.

If they had gone to God first and asked Him what they should do, I'm sure things would have turned out better. And I don't think Shechem was acting righteously, I think he was being obsessive and possessive. He just raped a woman and now he's madly in love with her and needs her to be his wife. That sounds psychotic to me.
There may be some differences in the definition of rape. I think his offering to marry her was more out of a sense of obligation, especially considering that Jacob would be seen as a very rich Bedouin prince. It is interesting that we know nothing about how Shecham felt.
 
May 21, 2009
3,955
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#6
They raped a girl and were punished.
 
L

lil-rush

Guest
#7
They raped a girl and were punished.
Two wrongs don't make a right.

As is, circumcision at an advanced age was bad enough. Jacob's sons did a wicked thing in killing those men. The way in which they went about it was deceitful and unGodly. 34:13 says they replied to Shechem's father deceitfully. You can see right away that they never intended to give Dinah to those men after they were circumcised, so they should not have lied. It was cowardly to kill the men when they were unable to defend themselves after the men believed they were forgiven.

So all around, all the men were pretty much pigs. Shechem was a pig for raping Dinah. Jacob's sons were pigs for acting so deceitfully and cowardly. The only seemingly noble character in this story is Chamor, who acted as society dictated. Even before God gave the Law saying a man must marry a virgin woman he defiles, Chamor was offering that solution. Deuteronomy 22:28-29

As to Dinah's role in all of this, I don't think she deserved it. No woman deserves to be raped. The Bible doesn't give much information about how she felt through out all of this. Did she develop stockholm syndrome for Shechem? Was she ever able to marry afterwards? Was she impregnated? We don't really know. I feel sorry for her.
 
M

Mich223

Guest
#8
I hope Dinah went on to marry. It's too bad the bible doesn't tell us more about her. Shechem was wrong for raping Dinah and I think her brothers retaliated harshly. But in those days, a rape was seen as a dishonor to a family. But one wonders if Dinah would have been seen as holier if they'd allow them to marry or was she seen as holier because they avenged her.
 
L

lightbliss

Guest
#9
As for rape:

Deuteronomy 22:25-29
“But if a man finds a betrothed young woman in the countryside, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the young woman; there is in the young woman no sin deserving of death, for just as when a man rises against his neighbor and kills him, even so is this matter. For he found her in the countryside, and the betrothed young woman cried out, but there was no one to save her.
If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out, then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.


IMO, betrothed or not, she was still raped and in both instances, if there was "punishment" availible, then there should have been.

So Person A is "humbled" by Person B (although I don't think this word fits with being raped) and is not engaged, it doesn't mean that Person A wants to marry Person B (obviously) to avoid shaming her family but she has to.

If these laws were solid today and if I was raped, I just couldn't.

But, being engaged to be married and then raped, I can see why this was considered the "greater" case.

As for the slaying of Shechem and his men (which brings the phrase "Guilty be association" to a whole new level), I think they (the brothers) would have done so regardless if Dinah was betrothed or not.

Sometimes people feel as though they don't "deserve" (in this case being they are above it; ferior) whatever it is that they have because of who they are related to, this is partially why I think Jacob's sons reacted in such a way.
 
May 21, 2009
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#10
The men didn't repent. What they did was evil. They were circumcised trying to get let off the hook not because they were sorry.
 
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lil-rush

Guest
#11
The men didn't repent. What they did was evil. They were circumcised trying to get let off the hook not because they were sorry.
Technically, Shechem was the only one who did the raping. This wasn't a group act. Regardless, all the men were asked to circumcise themselves with the belief that they were entering into a treaty with the Hebrews. Basically the thought was along the lines of "we get circumcised, and our men can marry your women and vice versa. We get circumcised and Shechem can marry Dinah."

Never once did it say Chamor excused the actions of his son. It is possible that that was his mindset, but the Bible does not specifically such a thing, so we can't make assumptions just so we can go on in blissful ignorance trying to excuse the reprehensible actions of Jacob's sons.

They were all in the wrong, and that's that.

The lesson to be learned from this is that even when someone wrongs you, you cannot retaliate in kind. You must react in a Godly manner. "'Vengeance is mine', says the Lord"
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
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#12
One must remember that Jacob's sons were not the best, most upright of men. They plotted to slay Joseph. Ended up selling him into slavery. That they would kill these men is not a stretch. What is apparent is that there was no Law then, Moses had not been born, God had not come down to the mountain to make a covenant with the people of Israel, all who were Jacob's children.

What we need to realize is that there is no goodness in people naturally. People do horrible things, all the time. The only difference between Joseph and his brothers was that God gave grace to Joseph, He drew near to him and gave him dreams. Grace is the difference. As to his brothers, sin is not counted where there is no Law.