Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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Mar 23, 2016
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Not an elephant at all. It should be obvious to everyone, because I pointed it out, that the "us" in Eph 1:4 means believers. This is proven by v.19 which says "us who believe". There is no contextual reason to assume/presume that Paul changed what "us" refers to between v.4 and v.19.
It's not only verse 19 which proves the "us" means believers. check out Eph 1:1:

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus


The letter to the Ephesians was written to "the faithful in Christ Jesus" ... which means they were not newborn babes. They had some spiritual depth so they were able to comprehend what God wanted them to know.

this is further corroborated in Ephesians 4 ...

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

God wants His children to grow up so we are not tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.

hang in there FreeGrace2 ...



 

brightfame52

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Election is a blessing because it causes men to come to Christ. Ps 65:4

Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

Approaching God here, drawing near to Him is the effect of election. The elect are those given to Christ by the Father, and the result of that is they shall come to Christ Jn 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.The word for come here heko means

to come to one, i.e. to seek an intimacy with one, become his follower:

In other words it will result in the comers following Christ. Jn 10:27

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
 

Grandpa

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Why don't we just get over this snarky kind of attitude. It doesn't benefit your argument in the least.


Well, aren't you just spiffy.


Really? OK, prove that the following verses CANNOT mean everyone, from context.

John 1:7 He (John the Baptist) came for a witness, that he might bear witness of the Light (Christ), that all (pas) might believe through him.

John 1:29 Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.

John 3:16, 17 For God so loved the world, that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. (17) …not to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

John 4:42 This One is indeed the Savior of the world.

John 17:21 that they may all be one, even as thou, Father, art in Me, and I in thee, that they also may be in Us: that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me.

Luke 9:55-56
55 But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. 56 For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them." And they went to another village. No mention of the "elect".

Acts 17:27 God did this (created mankind) so that men would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. (see also Heb 11:6 regarding mankind having the ability to look for God, in contrast to point 1 of Calvinism)

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now He commands all (pas) people everywhere to repent. See also 2 Pet 3:9

Rom 5:6 In due time, when we were without strength, Christ died for the ungodly. (that’s every human), not just the “elect” per point 3 of Calvinism. Consider Rom 3:23 ‘for ALL have sinned, and come short’

Rom 11:32 For God has bound all (pas) men over to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all (pas). Cf: Rom 3:23, 6:23, Rom 5:6,8 All humans are sinful and Christ died for all of them.

Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." In 5 point Calvinism, elect aren’t really “lost” since they were elected, so just what does this verse mean? Obviously, the entire human race is lost and is in need of a Savior. So the Son of Man came to seek and save the entire human race.

2 Cor 5:14,15 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And He died for all (pas), that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for Him who died for them and was raised again.

2 Cor 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone (pas).

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all (pas) men. Everyone

1 Tim 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-of whom I am the worst. See Rom 3:23, 6:23 All of humanity are sinners!

1 Tim 2:3,4 This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants all (pas) men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (Christ-Jn 14:6, Jn 8:32, 12:32) Note the potential: Christ wants all men to be saved. The concept of limited atonement just doesn’t fly in light of this verse.

1 Tim 2:6 Who gave Himself as a ransom for all (pas) men, the testimony given in its proper time.

1 Tim 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all (pas) men, and especially (malista) of those who believe.

Malista: chiefly, most of all, specially

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, (has not predetermined that) but everyone (pas) to come to repentance.

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole (holos) world. Holos: all, all together, every whit, throughout, whole

Rev 22:17 Whosoever wishes, (let him) take the water of life freely. [eternal life is a free gift] and it is potential; in other words, man has free will to believe or reject God’s promise of eternal life through Christ.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.

Christ certainly did die for everyone. All these verses make that clear.
I told you that all the facets of Salvation wasn't easy to understand. That was for your benefit.

You then told me that Salvation was easy to understand and that it was a cop out to say otherwise.

Except you don't understand simple scripture or the magnitude of what they are saying.


John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


If Christ died for everyone, and all those scriptures that you posted (that you don't understand) mean everyone and the Whole World, how can anyone be condemned of anything?

Or, in your view, is no one condemned of anything?
 

Grandpa

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Nice wordings but you need to have a verse that Christ died for the elect.
John 10:26-29
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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John 10:26-29
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

No mention of the elect here.


The elect mostly refers to the Jews in the Bible.



Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10



  • the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus



The elect need salvation.





JPT
 

cv5

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No mention of the elect here.


The elect mostly refers to the Jews in the Bible.



Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10



  • the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus









JPT
The elect need salvation

The elect of this Church age already have it. Some of the elect don't even know (yet) that they have it because they have not yet heard the call and followed. Indeed some of the elect of this present world are not even converted yet......but since they are foreordained they will be eventually.

In fact for the bride of Christ, we are elect to glorification. The calling, justifying and sanctifying are the necessary consequential inevitable process that culminate in the termination point which is glorification, that which makes us fit for the heavenly kingdom.

As far as the Church is concerned there is no doctrine of election that does not end up with glorification. This preposterous nonsense that election is only to service is the result of biblical illiteracy and ignorance.
 

cv5

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FreeGrace2 said:
Please quote any verse that directly and clearly indicates that God unconditionally chooses anyone for salvation.

How is one placed "in Christ"? Eph 1:13,14 tells us plainly. "having believed". That's how. That's how salvation is obtained.

This is the kind of an answer that shows the person can't defend themselves or their theology.

You know there are NO verses that say that God unconditionally chooses anyone for salvation.

Yep, when the going gets tough, many fall by the wayside, knowing they can't handle it.
Tell us how anyone born spiritually dead, born spiritually blind, who only do the works of the devil can, in and of themselves UN-blind themselves and RESURRECT themselves to spiritually life by believing that Jesus is Lord and Savior?

Impossible. Opening blind eyes, believing and faith are a miraculous gift of God.

Nevertheless the following is also true...

Acts 13:46
"Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge YOURSELVES unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles."

Of course Paul and Barnabas are espousing the same sentiment as our Lord:

John 5:40
"and you are not willing to come to Me, that you may have life."

Luke 19:14
But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

Yes, God foreordains and elects all those who are being saved and gives them to the Son as a love gift. Nevertheless, there are those who will NOT hear, NOT receive the free gift of salvation, who DO NOT choose to be part of God's glorious kingdom and thereby become the vessels of grace, mercy and glory to come. Because God in His justice will not force them to make such a decision. And, because God is a just God, he will give them their wages for their sin....eternal punishment.
 

Justified

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Tell us how anyone born spiritually dead, born spiritually blind, who only do the works of the devil can, in and of themselves UN-blind themselves and RESURRECT themselves to spiritually life by believing that Jesus is Lord and Savior?

Impossible. Opening blind eyes, believing and faith are a miraculous gift of God.

Nevertheless the following is also true...

Acts 13:46
"Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge YOURSELVES unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles."

Of course Paul and Barnabas are espousing the same sentiment as our Lord:

John 5:40
"and you are not willing to come to Me, that you may have life."

Luke 19:14
But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

Yes, God foreordains and elects all those who are being saved and gives them to the Son as a love gift. Nevertheless, there are those who will NOT hear, NOT receive the free gift of salvation, who DO NOT choose to be part of God's glorious kingdom and thereby become the vessels of grace, mercy and glory to come. Because God in His justice will not force them to make such a decision. And, because God is a just God, he will give them their wages for their sin....eternal punishment.
Do you not see that you are blind to the scriptures you quoted.
You have shown that man has a God given free will.

Acts 13:46
and judge YOURSELVES unworthy of everlasting life,
John 5:40
you are not willing
Luke 19:14
We will not

Calvinists have such a problem. You want to have God control everything but then you have to have man overrule and reject God. How does that work?

But if you think through your theology you will see how abhorrent it really is. You want a God that picks out a small group, that you hope your in, to save and the rest of humanity He sends to hell for no other reason than for His glory. Really, what kind of God do you worship that needs the suffering of untold billions for eternity.
 

FreeGrace2

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I told you that all the facets of Salvation wasn't easy to understand. That was for your benefit.
And I told you the snarky and demeaning comments are for your benefit.

You then told me that Salvation was easy to understand and that it was a cop out to say otherwise.
Because even unbelievers who refuse to believe understand it.

Except you don't understand simple scripture or the magnitude of what they are saying.
So give me some of the simple Scriptures then.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Yep. Real simple. Those who have not believed will be condemned. The "other side of that coin" is: those who have ever believed will not be condemned.

If Christ died for everyone, and all those scriptures that you posted (that you don't understand) mean everyone and the Whole World, how can anyone be condemned of anything?
Because it is you who don't understand the very simple verse that you just shared; John 3:18. 2 Thess 2:12 says the very same thing.

Condemnation is for those who "have not believed", which means "have NEVER believed".

You apparently assume that Christ's death saves everyone for whom He died? Where do you get that presumption from? Certainly NOT from the Bible.

Here is some simple verses from Paul:
Romans 4:25 - He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Romans 5-
9 Since we have now been justified by his blood (faith in His death - 3:25), how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

The blue words refer to His death removing the sin barrier between men and God.
The red words show how we are saved; v.9 faith in Him, v.10 through His resurrection.
The green words show the sin barrier removed through His death.

We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH, Eph 2:8. Don't ever forget that.

His death removed the barrier caused by sin between God and mankind. That makes man savable, but that does not save.

The power of His resurrection demonstrates God's power to save those who believe in Him.

Or, in your view, is no one condemned of anything?
Again, I will use your simple verse, plus another simple verse:

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

I have bolded and enlarged the EXACT SAME WORDS that are in both verses.

Since neither verse contains any kind of time frame or limitation, it is obvious and clear to rational people that the bolded and enlarged words mean "have never believed".

This is simple, really. Those who have NEVER believed WILL BE condemned. Not hard to understand.

Now the flip side: those who have EVER believed WILL NOT BE condemned.

In summary, then, every person who has NEVER believed in Christ WILL most certainly be condemned.

Is that clear enough and simple enough for you?
 

FreeGrace2

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Tell us how anyone born spiritually dead, born spiritually blind, who only do the works of the devil can, in and of themselves UN-blind themselves and RESURRECT themselves to spiritually life by believing that Jesus is Lord and Savior?
You are quite incorrect on many levels here.

First, I never said they "un-blind themselves". Neither does the Bible. John 5:25 says "the dead WILL HEAR", and you may disagree all you want, but the wording is very clear. Spiritually dead people CAN hear the gospel, and even understand it.

Rom 10-
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

This is the way people get saved. They have to hear the gospel, just as Jn 5:25.

Second, no one needs "resurrection" in order to believe. Where in the world do you get that idea?

Impossible. Opening blind eyes, believing and faith are a miraculous gift of God.
Please quote any verse that teaches this.

Consider this verse:

2 Cor 3:16 - But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Please pay particular attention to the ORDER in this verse. It refutes your ideas.
 

Grandpa

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And I told you the snarky and demeaning comments are for your benefit.


Because even unbelievers who refuse to believe understand it.


So give me some of the simple Scriptures then.


Yep. Real simple. Those who have not believed will be condemned. The "other side of that coin" is: those who have ever believed will not be condemned.


Because it is you who don't understand the very simple verse that you just shared; John 3:18. 2 Thess 2:12 says the very same thing.

Condemnation is for those who "have not believed", which means "have NEVER believed".

You apparently assume that Christ's death saves everyone for whom He died? Where do you get that presumption from? Certainly NOT from the Bible.

Here is some simple verses from Paul:
Romans 4:25 - He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Romans 5-
9 Since we have now been justified by his blood (faith in His death - 3:25), how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

The blue words refer to His death removing the sin barrier between men and God.
The red words show how we are saved; v.9 faith in Him, v.10 through His resurrection.
The green words show the sin barrier removed through His death.

We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH, Eph 2:8. Don't ever forget that.

His death removed the barrier caused by sin between God and mankind. That makes man savable, but that does not save.

The power of His resurrection demonstrates God's power to save those who believe in Him.


Again, I will use your simple verse, plus another simple verse:

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

I have bolded and enlarged the EXACT SAME WORDS that are in both verses.

Since neither verse contains any kind of time frame or limitation, it is obvious and clear to rational people that the bolded and enlarged words mean "have never believed".

This is simple, really. Those who have NEVER believed WILL BE condemned. Not hard to understand.

Now the flip side: those who have EVER believed WILL NOT BE condemned.

In summary, then, every person who has NEVER believed in Christ WILL most certainly be condemned.

Is that clear enough and simple enough for you?
Its extremely simple for me. It is you who cannot grasp the simplicity.

The efficacy of Christ's death is only for believers. Christ removes the "sin barrier" for believers only.

The benefits for everything Christ has done is for believers.



1 Corinthians 1:30-31
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
 

John146

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Its extremely simple for me. It is you who cannot grasp the simplicity.

The efficacy of Christ's death is only for believers. Christ removes the "sin barrier" for believers only.

The benefits for everything Christ has done is for believers.



1 Corinthians 1:30-31
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
 

Justified

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Its extremely simple for me. It is you who cannot grasp the simplicity.

The efficacy of Christ's death is only for believers. Christ removes the "sin barrier" for believers only.

The benefits for everything Christ has done is for believers.



1 Corinthians 1:30-31
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
So if the benefits of Christ Jesus is only for believers then why was it necessary for Him to do anything since they were already saved.
His death and resurrection was of no valve to them as it was the lost that Christ Jesus came to save.

Your theology needs a serious rethink.
 

cv5

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Do you not see that you are blind to the scriptures you quoted.
You have shown that man has a God given free will.

Acts 13:46
and judge YOURSELVES unworthy of everlasting life,
John 5:40
you are not willing
Luke 19:14
We will not

Calvinists have such a problem. You want to have God control everything but then you have to have man overrule and reject God. How does that work?

But if you think through your theology you will see how abhorrent it really is. You want a God that picks out a small group, that you hope your in, to save and the rest of humanity He sends to hell for no other reason than for His glory. Really, what kind of God do you worship that needs the suffering of untold billions for eternity.
"Nevertheless the following is also true..."
 

FreeGrace2

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Its extremely simple for me. It is you who cannot grasp the simplicity.

The efficacy of Christ's death is only for believers.
What did I say that is different than this?

Christ removes the "sin barrier" for believers only.
Prove it with Scripture. Oh, wait. You can't. The Bible teaches that Christ died for everyone, as I have already proven,

The benefits for everything Christ has done is for believers.
This is true has has NOTHING to do with who He died for.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
I have to wonder why you quote verses that have nothing to do with unlimited atonement.
 

brightfame52

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Do you not see that you are blind to the scriptures you quoted.
You have shown that man has a God given free will.

Acts 13:46
and judge YOURSELVES unworthy of everlasting life,
John 5:40
you are not willing
Luke 19:14
We will not

Calvinists have such a problem. You want to have God control everything but then you have to have man overrule and reject God. How does that work?

But if you think through your theology you will see how abhorrent it really is. You want a God that picks out a small group, that you hope your in, to save and the rest of humanity He sends to hell for no other reason than for His glory. Really, what kind of God do you worship that needs the suffering of untold billions for eternity.
Those three verses describe all men by nature, so if God had not chosen some, we all would be described by those 3 verses.
 

brightfame52

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So if the benefits of Christ Jesus is only for believers then why was it necessary for Him to do anything since they were already saved.
His death and resurrection was of no valve to them as it was the lost that Christ Jesus came to save.

Your theology needs a serious rethink.
Because they were saved based upon the death of Christ in the first place. In other words, God saved His elect in all generations based upon what Christ would come and do in time. As far as God was concerned, in His Eternal Perspective of things, Christ was slain for the sins of the elect from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

So thats why it was necessary for Christ to come and die, many had been saved based upon His death for them, on credit that He would come and pay their debt.
 

cv5

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Do you not see that you are blind to the scriptures you quoted.
You have shown that man has a God given free will.

Acts 13:46
and judge YOURSELVES unworthy of everlasting life,
John 5:40
you are not willing
Luke 19:14
We will not

Calvinists have such a problem. You want to have God control everything but then you have to have man overrule and reject God.

But if you think through your theology you will see how abhorrent it really is. You want a God that picks out a small group, that you hope your in, to save and the rest of humanity He sends to hell for no other reason than for His glory. Really, what kind of God do you worship that needs the suffering of untold billions for eternity.
"How does that work?"

Clearly you have no idea. And frankly neither do I. Paradox resolution occurs in higher dimensional space. That space we are not privy to this present moment, therefore we do not understand.

For our part we need to accept these statements on faith and nothing more. The precise nature of the interaction of man's will and God's will is completely unknowable......trying to do so is folly.

God is willing to save all men yet all men are not willing to be saved. Very sad.
 

brightfame52

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If by Grace then by Election !

If Salvation is by Grace, which it is, then its by Election, for you cant have one without the other. Paul writes, in speaking about election in the 11th of Romans these words Rom 11:5-6

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Paul is writing about Salvation amongst the jews, though it applies to all men, that some jews will be saved because they are part of Gods election of grace, and if you add to that, then it disqualifies as being by grace.

Also for it, Salvation, to be by Grace, it can and does only apply to a remnant, as here in this context it applies to only a remnant of jews out of national Israel, but it also must apply to only a remnant out of the gentiles as Per Acts 15:14-1722

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Notice Vs 14, God visits the Gentiles only to take out of them a People for Salvation, that's the remnant out from among the gentile nations, an election of grace.

The word take is the greek word
lambanó and means to:

I receive, get, (b) I take, lay hold of.

to take, equivalent to to choose, select:

That's Election, to select from the whole, to choose from the whole, that's a remnant !

Just like the High Priest was taken or selected to choose out from amongst men Heb 5:1

For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

Also those so chosen, chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4, are in time layed hold of by God in Christ

Remember Paul said of himself how Christ laid hold of him Phil 3:12

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

That word apprehended, its the same word and can be read:

I was laid hold of !

The remnant, whether of from amongst the jews, or the gentiles will be laid hold of by Christ in time, and its all of Grace, the Election of Grace, which equates to Salvation by Grace. If we deny Particular discriminating Grace in Salvation applied only to a remnant, not all without exception, then by default we deny Salvation by Grace !