Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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HOW CAN THERE BE CONDEMNED PEOPLE IF CHRIST DIED FOR THEM???????

Condemned of what????
I will let Scripture answer this question. It's a good question. Every believer needs to understand this issue.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Both verses have the SAME WORDS in red. So, what does the phrase mean?

It means condemnation is for EVERYONE who has not believed in Christ as Savior.

Jesus paid the sin debt. He was condemned on mankind's behalf. So, the ONLY THING that will keep people out of heaven is NOT having God's life, which is eternal life. Eternal life is obtained by faith in Christ. So those who HAVE NOT BELIEVED don't have God's life and therefore CANNOT live with God in eternity.

Note Rev 20:15 - Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

This is the reason people will be cast into the lake of fire. They never received the gift of eternal life.

Note Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

God's grace offers salvation to everyone. Those who don't receive the gift ARE CONDEMNED.

Period.

In fact, Christ's death for everyone makes EVERYONE accountable. God's grace offers salvation to everyone.
 

FreeGrace2

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Yes.

So Christ did not die for all men. Otherwise no men would be condemned.

Christ died ONLY FOR BELIEVERS. Those who are not condemned.
Quite the knack for really twisting Scripture. You have it all backward.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Jesus when speaking of all them the Father giveth Him, Hes speaking of His Sheep, a synonym for His Elect. Jesus is speaking again about those God the Father gave Him here in Jn 10:29

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me[Sheep], is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them[Sheep] out of my Father's hand.

Thats the same as those Jesus said earlier as being the ones the Father gives Him shall come to Him Jn 6:37

John 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;
 

FreeGrace2

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Jesus when speaking of all them the Father giveth Him, Hes speaking of His Sheep, a synonym for His Elect.
OK, let's go with this. You note that Jesus was speaking to HIS SHEEP. Thank you. Those are the sheep that are believers.

However, in John 10, Jesus repeatedly said that He would die for THE sheep, not HIS sheep. Do you see the difference?



Jesus is speaking again about those God the Father gave Him here in Jn 10:29

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me[Sheep], is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them[Sheep] out of my Father's hand.
OK, here is the explanation of these verses.

v.27 is a description of what Jesus' sheep do or OUGHT TO DO. Period. Nothing about conditions for BEING His sheep.
v.28 is a statement about recipients of eternal life. They shall never perish. The clearest statement of eternal security in the Bible.
v.29 is another statement about eternal security.

btw, the words "no man" and "neither any man" means "no person" and "neither any person".

So, even the believer him/herself CANNOT remove themselves from the Father's hand.

Just as no person can undo their birth from their parents. That's just a crazy idea.

John 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;
And...what's your point?

Let's read a bit farther:

6:44 - “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

You're probably cheering about now.

So, let's go 1 verse farther:

45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

The red words show that God has taught everyone. Romans 1:19-21 is being referred to.
The blue words speak about everyone who has listened and learned from the Father.
The green words describe the result of having listened and learned from the Father.

You're welcome to try to refute my points.
 

fredoheaven

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Nov 17, 2015
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Don't think so -- they (we) can only believe IF it is first given by Father. Their belief came about as a result of being given to Him, not the reverse.

Notice below that it is God's work that someone comes to a true belief in Christ.
.
[Jhn 6:29, 37 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. ...
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Well, you need to consider the context. Jesus is answering those people who would like to work the works of God (v.28) and what does specifically being referred to as the work of God? v.27 provides the very answer, Jesus says it is the everlasting life is what he is giving. What is being given here is not someone's belief but rather eternal life and that is the work of God. All you have is to believe on him.

John 6:27

“Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.”
 

fredoheaven

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Nov 17, 2015
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You see you limit the atonement by robbing it of its power. If its mans decision then the atonement has no power. Because the final outcome of saving grace is in the hands of men.

If you actually believe the atonement has the power to save all men, then the logical conclusion of your first sentence is universalism(as you stated above). But then you say it is up to man to decide therefore limiting the atonement to mans decision. you limit its power in second half of the sentence, again robbed of power (limited) by mans choice

You see' using your own words tells us everything we need to know... The atonement is "conditioned" on mans choice.. not God's eternal purpose. Therefore you limit the atonement.


The bible seems pretty clear to me, that redemptive history is part of God's eternal purpose and for His glory, God in His mercy has chosen those whom He will bring to saving faith. The atonement is limited to its extent, that is to the elect and not every single human, and it is powerful to achieve its intended goal, to saves those whom He will!
Umm, I am not limiting the atonement, the reconciliatory act of Christ at Calvary is for ALL. The FINAL outcome is in God’s saving Grace through the agency of faith. God’s grace is free and you own it by accepting it or receiving it. Accepting or receiving is synonymous of believing.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Universalism is a different perspective; in that it teaches that all eventually be saved because of what Christ did. This is a Calvinist strawman to those who believe the bible as it is. The bible specifically says salvation has appeared to all men with no boundaries. The word “appeared” is to make it available or become visible but none is to have it without faith. It is ‘whosoever’ will come, that believe will have it and likewise, those who would not come or not believe will not possess it. Is not the scripture clear about this matter? Yes. It‘s very clear. I am not limiting its power, it is unleashing the truth of the matter.

The Bible is much clearer than you think. Romans 5:10-11 says of the atonement which is the reconciliatory act of Christ at Calvary. This grace of God appears to all men, nevertheless, it is not assumed to automatically saves, everyone. The righteousness of God is to ALL and upon ALL that believe (Romans 3:22). For Paul receives, (possession)the atonement when, he says Being justified by faithby faith into this grace… Romans 5:1-2

Romans 5

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
 
Jul 24, 2021
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Wrong. The Bride aka the Church does not suffer the wrath of the Lamb her Husband. Only Jews and gentiles remain on earth.
As I said, Revelation follows the format of an Oracle of Punishment. The OT stuff are all 1 chapter long I believe, never a entire book. The target is identified - the 7 Churches which are before God. The crimes are paraded out and then the Punishment.

The 7 churches no longer exists today. They are part of a greater metropolitan. Therefore, in the presence of God, these churches must be archetype of the faithful. The temples are within us. Those who do not believe are dead persons walking. There is never any doubt where they are headed. It is the "faithful" who will be marked to go on the left or right side of God. The mark is on the forehead - thinking - and the right hand - acts. If one think like a beast, walk like a beast, and talk like a beast, one is a beast even if one self identifies as a Christian.

Jesus redeemed the sins of all people. But like the parable of the sower, some take and some fail. When can they fail - somewhere between baptism and death. There are 12 (tribes) x 12 (tribes) x 1000 (many) = 144000 (all cardinals - to the maximum). Whether you are in or out is up to God - gentile or jew.

The 5th seal breaking explains why there are the martyrs. Endure till all the tribes are filled.

Jesus will come back with a Sceptre of Iron (it will not be some postmodern, virtue signalling kind of kingdom) and rule for 1000 (cardinal - many) years. Then the dragon, beast and false prophet are released. They and their acolytes of that era will be destroyed forever. Second filtering of the residual filth from the pure waters.
 
Jul 24, 2021
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most people don't know there are 14 tribes.
In terms of the promised land, the tribe Joseph was split between Mannesh and Ephraim. The Levi never received land. Interestingly, as per Rev 7, Joseph and Levi snuck back in the 144000. Ephraim and Dan dropped off.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Well, you need to consider the context. Jesus is answering those people who would like to work the works of God (v.28) and what does specifically being referred to as the work of God? v.27 provides the very answer, Jesus says it is the everlasting life is what he is giving. What is being given here is not someone's belief but rather eternal life and that is the work of God. All you have is to believe on him.
I think the verse is completely self-contained in defining the attaining of belief; that is, to gain belief is God's work

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Respectfully, with the "that" linking "work of God" directly to "ye believe on him", I don't see it possible that another object might reasonably replace, either implicitly or explicitly, the "believe".
 

SaltwaterGirl

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Sep 18, 2021
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It’s by God’s GRACE that we are saved. The scripture verses below in Ezekiel are wonderful examples of God’s all-sufficient Grace. It is God who removes our stony hearts and gives us a new heart to know Him.

I’m thinking that the following verses apply to all of us?

Ezekiel 36:26-27

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Hosea 14:4-7

4 “I will heal their backsliding,
I will love them freely,
For My anger has turned away from him.

And so when God gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life, this again shows the Father’s amazing Grace. For God so loved the world. (John 3:16)

Thoughts?
 

rayzor

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Aug 20, 2021
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In terms of the promised land, the tribe Joseph was split between Mannesh and Ephraim. The Levi never received land. Interestingly, as per Rev 7, Joseph and Levi snuck back in the 144000. Ephraim and Dan dropped off.
yea there's a pattern there 12 with 2 taken away not always the same 2 with in the bible
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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That’s what I’m trying to understand. I don’t know the answer.
Well, IMHO (and you'll get a lot of disagreement on this site to it), only those who were chosen of God to salvation (the elect),
receive God's grace and become saved, solely and completely as a free gift. This is the only way that someone becomes saved. Jesus is the Savior and as such it must be He who entirely does the saving with no contribution whatsoever possible or needed from the recipient. Otherwise, He couldn't rightfully have the title of Savior
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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SaltwaterGirl said:
That’s what I’m trying to understand. I don’t know the answer.
Well, IMHO (and you'll get a lot of disagreement on this site to it), only those who were chosen of God to salvation (the elect),
receive God's grace and become saved, solely and completely as a free gift. This is the only way that someone becomes saved. Jesus is the Savior and as such it must be He who entirely does the saving with no contribution whatsoever possible or needed from the recipient. Otherwise, He couldn't rightfully have the title of Savior
To SWG:

This answer has NO support from Scripture. I'm neither Calvinist or Arminian, but rogerg is regurgitating Calvinist talking points.

Their claims are NOT found in Scripture.

Election, or being "chosen" is about service, not salvation. There are plenty of verses that clearly give the purpose of the election in the verse. And, there are NO verses that teach that election is to salvation.

Why the Calvinists continue to push their talking points when they CAN'T provide any clear verses that say what they claim is a real mystery.
 

rogerg

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Why the Calvinists continue to push their talking points when they CAN'T provide any clear verses that say what they claim is a real mystery.
You are completely wrong! Are you saying that you believe in works for salvation, thereby putting Christ's salvation at naught ? The Bible is replete with doctrine of Election. Have you read the book of Ephesians? What do you think these verses mean? They are a 100% supportive and as clear as clear can be. When you read the Bible do you actually understand what it is you're reading -- what it is telling you? Obviously not. Answer how these verses are wrong

[Eph 1:1, 3-7, 11 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: ...
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; ...
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
Why the Calvinists continue to push their talking points when they CAN'T provide any clear verses that say what they claim is a real mystery.
You are completely wrong!
It is easy to see who has no Scriptural support regarding election.

I will quote several verses where the purpose of election, which is for service, is clearly indicated. So, you quote any verse that clearly teaches that election is to salvation.

27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are notto nullify the things that are,

Red words are who God chose. The blue words are the purpose His choosing in this context. Service, not salvation.

Eph 1:4 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

Red words are who God chose. In this case, the "us" is defined in v.19 as "us who believe". Therefore, this verse is about God choosing believers. They are already saved. The blue words are the purpose of God's choosing. Which is service, not salvation.

1 Pet 1-
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

2 Tim 1:9 - He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

"calling" is equivalent to election. This verse parallels 1 Pet 1.

Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

OK, your turn. I have given you 7 verses that directly and clearly speak to election to service.

Do you have any verses that speak directly to election to salvation?

Are you saying that you believe in works for salvation, thereby putting Christ's salvation at naught ?
Of course not. Salvation is by grace through faith. Eph 2;8,9

The Bible is replete with doctrine of Election
Maybe you weren't paying that close of attention to what I posted. I never said there is no doctrine of election in the Bible. I DID say that there is NO doctrine of election as the Calvinists claim. Big difference.

. Have you read the book of Ephesians?
Monthly for about 2 decades. Same for all the other books in the NT.

What do you think these verses mean?
Exactly what they SAY. And NONE of them say that God chose anyone for salvation.

But you are free to show me any verse that says what Calvinists claim.

They are a 100% supportive and as clear as clear can be.
Then it should be easy to refute my claim and prove that Calvinists are correct.

When you read the Bible do you actually understand what it is you're reading -- what it is telling you?
I sure do.

Obviously not. Answer how these verses are wrong
Why would I give an answer as to how the verses you cite below "are wrong". That would be absurd. No verse is "wrong". The problem is how one understands verses.

All I'm asking for are any verses that clearly state the Calvinist position; that God elects people to salvation.

I have provided 7 verses that clearly indicate that God elects to service. And there are plenty more.

[Eph 1:1, 3-7, 11 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: ...
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; ...
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
I've already explained v.4. The "us" is defined by Paul in v.19 as "us who believe", so v.3 is an election of believers for service.

And that is the only mention of "chose/elected" in these verses.

You claimed there are verses in Ephesians that are "100% supportive and clear as can be". So I invite you to quote at least 1 of these verses that show that God elects to salvation.

Thank you.
 

Grandpa

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Jun 24, 2011
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Quite the knack for really twisting Scripture. You have it all backward.
You just have no understanding of what sin is.

Unbelief is sin.

But you still argue that the Lord has paid the sin debt of ALL people. And yet there are still those who are condemned of sin.

I guess you don't realize your argument makes NO SENSE.


You CAN'T have the Lord Jesus paying the Sin Debt of all men and STILL have Condemnation. Its not possible.

There can only be condemnation where Christ has NOT paid the sin debt.