Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Election is conditional

Salvation is unconditional

Jesus himself said whoever sees and believes…

Election and believe are connected. They can not be seperated
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
7,797
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Election is conditional

Salvation is unconditional

Jesus himself said whoever sees and believes…

Election and believe are connected. They can not be seperated
I would agree election and believe are connected.. Rom 8:28-30.

I agree with everything you say except the first sentence.. But you know that already lol.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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Election is conditional

Salvation is unconditional

Jesus himself said whoever sees and believes…

Election and believe are connected. They can not be seperated
Both Election and Salvation are of Grace and therefore unconditional.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I would agree election and believe are connected.. Rom 8:28-30.

I agree with everything you say except the first sentence.. But you know that already lol.
Yes, and I still consider you my brother inspite of that:)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Both Election and Salvation are of Grace and therefore unconditional.
You don’t earn being elect by belief.

what you do is recieve grace..

no one ever saved themselves by faith in someone else.
it is always the other person doing the saving
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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Its crystal clear that the scriptures teach election, even unconditional election in salvation. Most people will agree that election is taught in scripture, but very few agree that its unconditional, and totally by grace and Gods sovereign good pleasure, not outside of Himself. Even the OT scripture indicates Gods sovereign prerogative in election and having mercy on whomever He will Ex 33:19

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. In this discriminatory fashion God exhibits His Glory

Now Paul alludes to this scripture in his treatise on unconditional election in Rom 9:11-16

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

We learn that there is what Paul terms "the purpose of God according to election" This is a salvaic purpose,. its answering the seeming dilema as to why so many jews in national israel are being lost Rom 9:1-6

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,​
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.​
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:​
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;​
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.​
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:​
Click to expand...​
Its from this background that Paul develops his treatise on the doctirne of unconditional election, or "the purpose of God according to election"

Now let us look at what Rom 9 tells us: By writer of godsonlygospel.com "election is just not fair.

Speaking of Jacob and Esau, the sons of Isaac and Rebecca, Paul the apostle states: "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works but of Him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:11-13). What a passage to confound the free willer! No wonder the Arminian minister prefers to conveniently shy away from this chapter in Romans and hide these things from his listeners. These verses show clearly that God made choice between Jacob and Esau before they were even born! God made choice between them as to which He would love and which He would hate. This was done, the Scriptures say, so that the purpose of God according to election might stand, an election which obviously could not have been based on any deeds, actual or foreseen, good or bad, that man had done or would do. The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, not by anything they have done, that none should boast. The good works they do were appointed, or prepared, for them to do and they were not elected because of any good works they were foreseen would do:​
I do differ with the author regarding his statement "The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, "

I believe the saved are those who are elected by Grace, minus the faith, but Faith being the consequent of election by grace.

However the main point is, the elect are not elected based upon any foreseen actions or deeds , good or bad, that man has done or will do, because the election of grace was made before they were born to do any actions whatsoever, thats the Apostles point.

This treatise by Paul should forever eliminate the false idea that election is based upon anything foreseen in or of the sinner. Its totally unconditional ! Its totally of Sovereign prerogative !
Predestiny and election is conditional upon God's foreknowledge. "Whom He foreknew He also predestined...."

This predestination is not unto salvation per se but election unto the body of Christ ... it does not exclude any from being saved.
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
1,398
467
83
Its crystal clear that the scriptures teach election, even unconditional election in salvation. Most people will agree that election is taught in scripture, but very few agree that its unconditional, and totally by grace and Gods sovereign good pleasure, not outside of Himself. Even the OT scripture indicates Gods sovereign prerogative in election and having mercy on whomever He will Ex 33:19

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. In this discriminatory fashion God exhibits His Glory

Now Paul alludes to this scripture in his treatise on unconditional election in Rom 9:11-16

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

We learn that there is what Paul terms "the purpose of God according to election" This is a salvaic purpose,. its answering the seeming dilema as to why so many jews in national israel are being lost Rom 9:1-6

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,​
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.​
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:​
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;​
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.​
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:​
Click to expand...​
Its from this background that Paul develops his treatise on the doctirne of unconditional election, or "the purpose of God according to election"

Now let us look at what Rom 9 tells us: By writer of godsonlygospel.com "election is just not fair.

Speaking of Jacob and Esau, the sons of Isaac and Rebecca, Paul the apostle states: "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works but of Him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:11-13). What a passage to confound the free willer! No wonder the Arminian minister prefers to conveniently shy away from this chapter in Romans and hide these things from his listeners. These verses show clearly that God made choice between Jacob and Esau before they were even born! God made choice between them as to which He would love and which He would hate. This was done, the Scriptures say, so that the purpose of God according to election might stand, an election which obviously could not have been based on any deeds, actual or foreseen, good or bad, that man had done or would do. The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, not by anything they have done, that none should boast. The good works they do were appointed, or prepared, for them to do and they were not elected because of any good works they were foreseen would do:​
I do differ with the author regarding his statement "The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, "

I believe the saved are those who are elected by Grace, minus the faith, but Faith being the consequent of election by grace.

However the main point is, the elect are not elected based upon any foreseen actions or deeds , good or bad, that man has done or will do, because the election of grace was made before they were born to do any actions whatsoever, thats the Apostles point.

This treatise by Paul should forever eliminate the false idea that election is based upon anything foreseen in or of the sinner. Its totally unconditional ! Its totally of Sovereign prerogative !
Just as in Exodus 33:19 “I will cause all My goodness to pass before you,” the LORD replied, “and I will proclaim My name—the LORD—in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
*Strong's Exodus 33:19


Isaiah 45:6 so that all may know, from where the sun rises to where it sets, that there is none but Me; I am the LORD, and there is no other. 7I form the light and create the darkness; I bring prosperity and create calamity. I, the LORD, do all these things. 8Drip down, O heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness. Let the earth open up that salvation may sprout and righteousness spring up with it; I, the LORD, have created it.…

Strong's From Original Authorized King James Version
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


Having mercy upon those for whom he would have mercy before the foundation of the world where the fall would later take place. Thus, it was only after that wherein people would need mercy from God.
4. Only the elect are written in this book.
It would appear from several texts that not all are written in this book, but only the elect. In Revelation, the terminology of “earth dwellers” or “those that dwell on the earth” is a standard designation for non-believers. These are the ones who “worship” the Beast (Rev. 13:8a). They are the ones “whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain” (Rev. 13:8b). Thus it would appear that to be one whose name has been written down before the foundation of the world is simply another way of saying that he/she is elect (see Eph. 1:4).
 

DannyGirl

New member
Mar 15, 2019
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0
1
What God said before Jacob and Esau were born:

Genesis 25:23 And the LORD said unto her [Rebekah], Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.


When did God say "Esau have I hated"? Not until long after Esau was dead and buried ...

Malachi 1:3 And I hated Esau ...
I think your trying to prove a point that ultimately contradicts the character of God. And especially contradicts Jesus’ teaching of who God is. This isn’t a I win this one, realize the implications of what your saying here. I don’t think your approaching this correctly
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,517
113
63
You don’t earn being elect by belief.

what you do is recieve grace..

no one ever saved themselves by faith in someone else.
it is always the other person doing the saving
All of Salvation is of Grace, Election is of Grace, believing Faith is because of Grace !
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,517
113
63
Predestiny and election is conditional upon God's foreknowledge. "Whom He foreknew He also predestined...."

This predestination is not unto salvation per se but election unto the body of Christ ... it does not exclude any from being saved.
Sounds confusing. Election unto Salvation is unconditional, its solely by Gods Grace and Will.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,517
113
63
Gods Glory in Election and Reprobation is that He has the right to do with His creatures, men, angels, devils etc whatever He pleases, we are as clay in a potters hand Jer 18:6

6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Isa 64:8

8 But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Rom 9:20-21

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

And since Election denotes Gods Love for a people according to Deut 7:7

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

He therefore has the right to love and choose some, and hate the rest Rom 9:13-1612

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
All of Salvation is of Grace, Election is of Grace, believing Faith is because of Grace !
Yep

But if you do not CHOSE to believe. You chose to reject grace

and you will not be elect.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Hi reneweddaybyday,

Yep he certainly said those things and amen for that! That whosoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

The reformed believe that as well.. Look to Jesus, repent and believe.

So I am not sure of your point?
Hi phil36, 👋

In Post #69 you said "Imagine Jesus dying on the cross and looking down on the human race and saying... well I hope this plan works.. its up to man now. Doesn't sound very biblical to me."

I pointed out what Jesus actually did say on the cross (Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do), as well as John 3:14-16.

And you state you are in agreement and you even go so far as to state we must "Look to Jesus, repent and believe".

And yet somehow when I (who am not calvinist or reformed … just plain "believer") say what God's Word says (God so loved the world … that whosoever believes in Him should not perish), somehow that is implying salvation is "up to man now" and "doesn’t sound very biblical to [you]".



 
Mar 23, 2016
4,602
1,338
113
I think your trying to prove a point that ultimately contradicts the character of God. And especially contradicts Jesus’ teaching of who God is. This isn’t a I win this one, realize the implications of what your saying here. I don’t think your approaching this correctly
I merely pointed out when God said what He said and when was it written what God wanted written (which does not contradict the character of the One Who said For God so loved the world ... ).

God knows when He revealed to Rebekah “the elder shall serve the younger” (Gen 25:23).

God knows when He revealed to Malachi “I hated Esau” (Mal 1:3).

A lot of people read Romans 9:11-13 and conclude that God hated Esau before Esau was born.

But that is not what the text says. The text says:

Romans 9:

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.


That is what God's Word says at Genesis 25:23 and Romans 9:11-12 ... the elder shall serve the younger.


Then the text goes on:

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


Does anyone ever question when did God say that? … or when was that written?

No. We conclude that God hated Esau before Esau was born because that is what some teach and we don't behave as the Bereans who searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so (Acts 17:11).

So what does God's Word state concerning the issue?
(HINT: God's word does not say God hated Esau before he was born.)



 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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Hi phil36, 👋

In Post #69 you said "Or you view Kidron -Imagine Jesus dying on the cross and looking down on the human race and saying... well I hope this plan works.. its up to man now. Doesn't sound very biblical to me."

I pointed out what Jesus actually did say on the cross (Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do), as well as John 3:14-16.

And you state you are in agreement and you even go so far as to state we must "Look to Jesus, repent and believe".

And yet somehow when I (who am not calvinist or reformed … just plain "believer") say what God's Word says (God so loved the world … that whosoever believes in Him should not perish), somehow that is implying salvation is "up to man now" and "doesn’t sound very biblical to [you]".

Hi reneweddaybyday,

I am totally confused, where did I imply the below to you?

And yet somehow when I (who am not calvinist or reformed … just plain "believer") say what God's Word says (God so loved the world … that whosoever believes in Him should not perish), somehow that is implying salvation is "up to man now" and "doesn’t sound very biblical to [you]".
Here is actually what I said. Just for the record.

Hi reneweddaybyday,
Yep he certainly said those things and amen for that! That whosoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. The reformed believe that as well.. Look to Jesus, repent and believe. So I am not sure of your point?
Now, concerning post#69. It was a direct response to another poster not you. This is where I think some of the confusion has set in that is why I added the words back in from the original post above (In blue).

Post #69 is an unbiblical view. I mean't it that way! It does not say the same thing as what Jesus said -Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. So I disagree with your theology there. So what Jesus actually said in the cross is not the same as what I wrote in Post #69! I did not misunderstand you! Trust me on that one!

So I can whole hardheartedly say. Look to Jesus, repent and believe. And, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish. Thats not the issue.

The actual issue is how can a spiritually dead man believe spiritual things. I hope that helps clarify, you may have a different theology or you might not, but having an understanding of what the issue is in a debate helps us all. Hopefully, you will now understand why I can agree with you that ' “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. '

Just to recap, I don't agree with you that my post #69 (as explained above) is the same as Jesus' words (you seem to think they do?) and the issue isn't about believing or having faith but rather how one comes to faith. What does the "whole bible" say about God's redemptive plan?


Anyhow have a blessed evening reneweddaybyday(y):)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
False statement not in scripture.
It’s all over scripture

chose this day who you will follow God said

as Jesus said, he who believes is not condemned, whoever does not believe is condemned already. Because they have not believed

you will he held accountable to how you believe. God will not force you to receive or keep you from believing. That’s on you
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,517
113
63
It’s all over scripture

chose this day who you will follow God said

as Jesus said, he who believes is not condemned, whoever does not believe is condemned already. Because they have not believed

you will he held accountable to how you believe. God will not force you to receive or keep you from believing. That’s on you
No its not ! Its in your imagination friend.