Doctrine of Unconditional Election

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

rogerg

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
431
108
43
John 3 said those who believe are given life.. It is they who are born again.
Have to be born-again first:

[Jhn 3:3, 5-6 KJV]
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. ...
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Do you want to continue with this? Neither of us will convenience the other so I think it is wasted effort
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
2,761
389
83
That's not what it says. Those who believe have received eternal life and from that, believe
It most certainly does NOT say what you claim

There are NO verses that say that believing comes from receiving eternal life.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,337
757
113
Remember only those who have been given the fruit of the Spirt have belief. That happens only
AFTER becoming born again not before

don't forget:

[Rom 1:17 KJV]
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

"faith to faith": Christ's faith given to those who have become born again, by the Holy Spirit. It is
by Christ's faithfulness (not ours) to the Father, that we are given eternal life
We have to note, God' righteouness is by faith, so we are saved by faith or believing in Christ, the same, the just, those who are save are also to live by faith. That's what Paul is saying. We are save by faith, we are also to live by faith. I forgot, salvation is to every one.
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
2,761
389
83
[Jhn 17:2 KJV] 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Yep. Still doesn't say what you claim. You think God causes belief. There are no verses.
 
Mar 14, 2011
76,382
17,666
113
Have to be born-again first:

[Jhn 3:3, 5-6 KJV]
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. ...
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Do you want to continue with this? Neither of us will convenience the other so I think it is wasted effort
Yes you have to be born again

How are we born again? I think jesus makes it clear. The word life is being born again, We pass from death to life. that life being forever or eternal (sadly I believe many churches have made this saying "eternal life" into a religious thing, and not just take it for what Jesus said.

will not perish. but live forever would be a more accurate interpretation in today's language

There is no life apart from believing.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.


18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

its up to you if you want to continue. It is good to have these debates so others can also see them. and chose..
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
1,365
444
83
Thank you for presenting that wonderful scripture.


Now could you please answer my question that says —


Where is the phrase “Christ's eternal irrevocable security”, found in the scriptures?






JLB
Since you don't believe that's true, that faith and Salvation are an eternal irrevocable free gift of God, all you have to do to revoke God's word is show your counterpoint exists in scripture.

Proceed.
BTW, you're a Moderator at a different Christian forum, and you're here in opposition to the basic tenets upholding the Gospel?

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord". (Romans 6:23)

Ephesians 1:4-5 “Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.”
Verses 13–14
“You also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of His glory.



God cannot lie! Titus 1:1-2
1. Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness, 2in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began.

Romans 11:29 “For the gracious gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Romans 6:23 "the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
 

rogerg

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
431
108
43
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
But to believe is a gift from God (but not to everyone.) It comes by the fruit of the Holy Spirit AFTER being born again. God alone makes someone born-again. Believing from ourselves can not bring salvation to us. Were it able to, we would have made ourselves, our own Savior, which could never be - for only Christ can save.
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
1,365
444
83
But to believe is a gift from God (but not to everyone.) It comes by the fruit of the Holy Spirit AFTER being born again. God alone makes someone born-again. Believing from ourselves can not bring salvation to us. Were it able to, we would have made ourselves, our own Savior, which could never be - for only Christ can save.
God's grace brings us to faith and Salvation.
 

rogerg

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
431
108
43
We have to note, God' righteouness is by faith, so we are saved by faith or believing in Christ, the same, the just, those who are save are also to live by faith. That's what Paul is saying. We are save by faith, we are also to live by faith. I forgot, salvation is to every one.
I disagree. We are saved by Christ's faith, not by ours. Our faith (if it originates from us), cannot give righteousness to us because
(even if such a faith were possible for us to have, which I don't believe it is), would be an imperfect faith and the imperfect faith cannot give perfect righteousness. Only Christ's faith which is a perfect faith, can give perfect righteousness. A true believer's faith is
a gift to them from the Holy Spirit.
 
Mar 14, 2011
76,382
17,666
113
But to believe is a gift from God (but not to everyone.)
It is a gift of God. No one could believe if God did not offer them the gift of eternal life

It comes by the fruit of the Holy Spirit AFTER being born again. God alone makes someone born-again.
The fruit of the spirit is to those who have been saved based on the HS entering a person. This is called the anointing. Which comes after the washing, which comes as a result of being justified. which is by grace through faith. Without faith there is no salvation. there is no new birth, there is no fruit of the spirit. There is mere belief which does not save anyone

Believing from ourselves can not bring salvation to us.
No one can believe unless they are taught the word. convicted by the spirit and convicted of their sin by the word. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word. WHich is exactly what Jesus said about those who would believe also by the word

eph 1 says clearly. we hear. We believe, We are sealed.
Were it able to, we would have made ourselves, our own Savior, which could never be - for only Christ can save.
Once again, I can not be my own savior, The penalty of sin is death. Not unbelief.

The only way I can be saved is to have the penalty of sin removed, that is called justification. Which happens by grace through faith.

Paul says we are saved by Grce through faith, Not of works lest anyone should boast. The mere fact he separated faith from works. and also insisted we are saved through faith. Shows faith is required and is not works
 

rogerg

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
431
108
43
God's grace brings us to faith and Salvation.
Most respectfully, Icedaisey, and if I understand your point correctly, it is my belief that God's grace is manifested in that He
gives to us everything associated to salvation with nothing left our. I think that we become saved by God first, and
everything else flows to us from that event, to include our faith, spiritual wisdom, etc. We are only recipients in all matters
spiritual and of salvation. Should we have to contribute anything whatsoever to the salvation transaction (so to speak), to the degree
we try, we take away from Christ's role and glory, as Savior. But this may have been your point too.
 

rogerg

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
431
108
43
It is a gift of God. No one could believe if God did not offer them the gift of eternal life
Disagree - He GIVES the gift of eternal life. Along with the receiving the gift, comes everything associated to salvation, to include faith

The fruit of the spirit is to those who have been saved based on the HS entering a person. This is called the anointing. Which comes after the washing, which comes as a result of being justified. which is by grace through faith. Without faith there is no salvation. there is no new birth, there is no fruit of the spirit. There is mere belief which does not save anyone
But it is Christ's faith, not ours.

No one can believe unless they are taught the word. convicted by the spirit and convicted of their sin by the word. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word. WHich is exactly what Jesus said about those who would believe also by the word
Our faith is a gift from God. The "hearing" you mention above is hearing spiritually with spiritual ears, not physical ears. The ability to hear spiritually is a gift from God which is received when born-again

Paul says we are saved by Grce through faith, Not of works lest anyone should boast. The mere fact he separated faith from works. and also insisted we are saved through faith. Shows faith is required and is not works
But it is Christ's faith that saves us, and not a faith that comes from within ourselves. If we have to produce faith it is a work. If
faith is a gift to us from God, it is not a work - and that is the only way it isn't a work

I think you (and others), tend to confuse Christ's faith with a faith that might be produced by ourselves (although I don't believe
that any faith we might produce is a true faith in God's eyes) is of righteousness or is worthy salvation
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
2,761
389
83
But to believe is a gift from God (but not to everyone.) It comes by the fruit of the Holy Spirit AFTER being born again.
Where are the verses that say this? There aren't any.

God alone makes someone born-again.
True. He gives new birth to those who believe.

Believing from ourselves can not bring salvation to us.
Rom 10:10 says that man believes from the heart. Not that man believes from the gift that God gives to some.

Were it able to, we would have made ourselves, our own Savior, which could never be - for only Christ can save.
That is twisted. Our belief is in the work of Christ for us. How does that make the believer his own savior. That is absurd.
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
1,365
444
83
Most respectfully, Icedaisey, and if I understand your point correctly, it is my belief that God's grace is manifested in that He
gives to us everything associated to salvation with nothing left our. I think that we become saved by God first, and
everything else flows to us from that event, to include our faith, spiritual wisdom, etc. We are only recipients in all matters
spiritual and of salvation. Should we have to contribute anything whatsoever to the salvation transaction (so to speak), to the degree
we try, we take away from Christ's role and glory, as Savior. But this may have been your point too.
I merely interpret Ephesians to support my prior observation. Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

We have been saved through faith that is a gift of God. In the context of the scripture itself we're told, that is not of our own doing, faith. It is a gift of God.
And we know Salvation was afforded God's elect by the sacrifice of his only begotten son.
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
2,761
389
83
I disagree. We are saved by Christ's faith, not by ours
You are free to believe whatever you want to, but 1 Cor 1:21 is very clear. God is pleased to save those who believe.

Our faith (if it originates from us), cannot give righteousness to us because
(even if such a faith were possible for us to have, which I don't believe it is), would be an imperfect faith and the imperfect faith cannot give perfect righteousness. Only Christ's faith which is a perfect faith, can give perfect righteousness. A true believer's faith is
a gift to them from the Holy Spirit.
All of your presumptions cannot be found in Scripture.
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
1,365
444
83
Rom 10:10 says that man believes from the heart. Not that man believes from the gift that God gives to some.
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
 

rogerg

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
431
108
43
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Perfect Icedaisey. I thought that was your belief but I can get kind of fanatical about this topic because it is so important -
didn't mean to doubt you - just wanted to be sure - thx.
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
1,365
444
83
You are free to believe whatever you want to, but 1 Cor 1:21 is very clear. God is pleased to save those who believe.
As Roger said that's true and it is found in scripture. Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."


All of your presumptions cannot be found in Scripture.
Oddly JPT said something similar earlier and was proven wrong. So too are you thus far.
God saves those who believe, have faith. And we learn how that occurs, for them to believe, have faith. It is a gift of God. Not of our own doing.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,337
757
113
I disagree. We are saved by Christ's faith, not by ours. Our faith (if it originates from us), cannot give righteousness to us because
(even if such a faith were possible for us to have, which I don't believe it is), would be an imperfect faith and the imperfect faith cannot give perfect righteousness. Only Christ's faith which is a perfect faith, can give perfect righteousness. A true believer's faith is
a gift to them from the Holy Spirit.
How can one have imperfect faith who solely trust in Christ alone for salvation? How can one's faith is not going to save him if he believes on him that Christ and the gospel can save? The woman in Luke 7:50, Christ said to her " Thy faith hath saved thee". Paul says to the Philippian Jailor Acts 16:31 "Beleive on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.." Such belief saves because it trusts in Christ alone.