Doctrines like Limited Atonement - why?

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Sep 24, 2012
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#1
What is the need for doctrines like Limited Atonement? Why summarize Scripture and then put a name on it and then view Scripture through that doctrine instead of just reading Scripture as it is? Isn't this a dangerous thing to do? What if one of your takeaways from Scripture is wrong, even in a very slight way? Why not just read Scripture as it is?

I guess I only have limited experience with Limited Atonement and I guess other doctrines like it, so it might not have been right to use Limited Atonement in this post and I guess my post might not make sense considereing the amount of experience I have with this stuff.
 
Sep 24, 2012
351
70
28
#2
What is the need for doctrines like Limited Atonement? Why summarize Scripture and then put a name on it and then view Scripture through that doctrine instead of just reading Scripture as it is? Isn't this a dangerous thing to do? What if one of your takeaways from Scripture is wrong, even in a very slight way? Why not just read Scripture as it is?

I guess I only have limited experience with Limited Atonement and I guess other doctrines like this, so it might not have been right to use Limited Atonement in this post and I guess my post might not make sense considereing the amount of experience I have with this stuff.
Argh, if I'm not mistaken I edited my original post. This might have been how I originally had it, and might be way more appropriate.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#3
People try to put their ideas in our Father''s Mouth, kind of impossible, but they try anyway.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
11,088
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#4
What is the need for doctrines like Limited Atonement?
The need to limit God and to limit His grace. Many people cannot believe that there are no limits to God's grace. They also do not understand that when God says that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, He really meant that. So in essence it is questioning God's grace and mercy as well as the finished work of Christ.

On the other hand the Bible is crystal clear that:
  • All men (human beings) are sinners by birth and by choice
  • The wages of sin are both physical and eternal death
  • No man can atone for his own sins
  • God therefore provided Himself a Lamb -- the Lord Jesus Christ
  • Christ took upon Himself the sins of the whole world and paid the penalty in full (UNLIMITED ATONEMENT)
  • Christ rose again for the justification of sinners
  • God commands all men everywhere to repent
  • God also commands all men everywhere to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved
  • Not all will obey the Gospel therefore not all will be saved
  • Nonetheless, the Church is commanded to preach the Gospel to every creature.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
3,886
667
113
#5
What is the need for doctrines like Limited Atonement? Why summarize Scripture and then put a name on it and then view Scripture through that doctrine instead of just reading Scripture as it is? Isn't this a dangerous thing to do? What if one of your takeaways from Scripture is wrong, even in a very slight way? Why not just read Scripture as it is?

I guess I only have limited experience with Limited Atonement and I guess other doctrines like it, so it might not have been right to use Limited Atonement in this post and I guess my post might not make sense considereing the amount of experience I have with this stuff.
Everyone believes in some form of limited atonement. To put it simply, most of us Christians tend to believe the standard view of how God saved us.
  • Jesus came to die for our sins as our substitute, thus providing a way in which we can be reconciled with God.
  • All of us must individually accept this free gift from God.
  • Those who accept it are declared righteous and will be in heaven.
  • Those who reject the gift will remain unrighteous and will be in hell.
Thus, our view of the atonement is that, it is unlimited in scope but limited by our free choice. Every human can be saved but not everyone will be saved because we still need to exercise faith to accept the gift, thus we rule out the concept of universal salvation.

Those who believe in the concept of limited atonement, however, believes that Jesus only died for a limited group that was chosen by God the Father, before the foundation of the world. This is called the elected group and they believe that only this group of people can respond to the preaching and accept Jesus as their savior.

If you are not part of the elected group, you have no ability to respond to the message. This is known as the concept of total depravity. Seen from this perspective, the idea of limited atonement has the view that atonement is unlimited in the sense that the grace is irresistible to the elect, but limited in its scope as it applies only to the elected group
 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
4,638
709
113
#6
What is the need for doctrines like Limited Atonement? Why summarize Scripture and then put a name on it and then view Scripture through that doctrine instead of just reading Scripture as it is? Isn't this a dangerous thing to do? What if one of your takeaways from Scripture is wrong, even in a very slight way? Why not just read Scripture as it is?

I guess I only have limited experience with Limited Atonement and I guess other doctrines like it, so it might not have been right to use Limited Atonement in this post and I guess my post might not make sense considereing the amount of experience I have with this stuff.
Limited atonement = salvation by grace. Universal atonement = salvation by works.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
6,028
2,612
113
#7
What is the need for doctrines like Limited Atonement? Why summarize Scripture and then put a name on it and then view Scripture through that doctrine instead of just reading Scripture as it is? Isn't this a dangerous thing to do? What if one of your takeaways from Scripture is wrong, even in a very slight way? Why not just read Scripture as it is?

I guess I only have limited experience with Limited Atonement and I guess other doctrines like it, so it might not have been right to use Limited Atonement in this post and I guess my post might not make sense considereing the amount of experience I have with this stuff.
I agree but i will also add .. Why not pray for understanding while you are reading scriptures.. :)
 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
4,638
709
113
#8
The need to limit God and to limit His grace. Many people cannot believe that there are no limits to God's grace. They also do not understand that when God says that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, He really meant that. So in essence it is questioning God's grace and mercy as well as the finished work of Christ.

On the other hand the Bible is crystal clear that:
  • All men (human beings) are sinners by birth and by choice
  • The wages of sin are both physical and eternal death
  • No man can atone for his own sins
  • God therefore provided Himself a Lamb -- the Lord Jesus Christ
  • Christ took upon Himself the sins of the whole world and paid the penalty in full (UNLIMITED ATONEMENT)
  • Christ rose again for the justification of sinners
  • God commands all men everywhere to repent
  • God also commands all men everywhere to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved
  • Not all will obey the Gospel therefore not all will be saved
  • Nonetheless, the Church is commanded to preach the Gospel to every creature.
Christ did not pay for sin at all if he died for all sinners and all are not saved. He paid for elect sinners only and that is why God saves them alone. You preach salvation by works.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#9
I know Jesus died for me. The question is did Jesus die for you? As you answer ask yourself why should He die for me?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
4,638
709
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#11
Calvin’s fatalism false doctrine.
You need to condemn all the Reformers and side with the Catholics to say that. It's either or.......
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
10,103
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#12
You need to condemn all the Reformers and side with the Catholics to say that. It's either or.......
Calvin or the Catholics? Really? That’s how you see it? That’s hilarious! You do know that Calvin was a Roman Catholic...
 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
4,638
709
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#13
Limited atonement justifies and saves all for whom God intended. Universal atonement doesn't save anyone. It supposedly clears the way for the self-righteous to save themselves through obedience. The biggest problem is that it turns the gospel into law, and law cannot save. And it turns grace into works that cannot save.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
10,103
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#14
Limited atonement justifies and saves all for whom God intended. Universal atonement doesn't save anyone. It supposedly clears the way for the self-righteous to save themselves through obedience. The biggest problem is that it turns the gospel into law, and law cannot save. And it turns grace into works that cannot save.
In your theology, believing is a work of the law?
 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
4,638
709
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#15
Calvin or the Catholics? Really? That’s how you see it? That’s hilarious! You do know that Calvin was a Roman Catholic...
Catholics teach that free will saves just as you do. The only difference between you is which works are you to perform. Theirs or yours?
 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
4,638
709
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#16
In your theology, believing is a work of the law?
Yes, if it is a condition for salvation. And as such, it is purely human faith of the flesh, and not Holy Spirit faith.
 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
4,638
709
113
#17
Calvin or the Catholics? Really? That’s how you see it? That’s hilarious! You do know that Calvin was a Roman Catholic...
You don't know that you are more Catholic than protestant?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
10,103
1,417
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#18
Catholics teach that free will saves just as you do. The only difference between you is which works are you to perform. Theirs or yours?
No, Catholics believe that through infant baptism one becomes a child of God and must endure through good works. This is what Calvin believed.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
10,103
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#19
Yes, if it is a condition for salvation. And as such, it is purely human faith of the flesh, and not Holy Spirit faith.
Faith is not a work. Can you show Scripture otherwise?
 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
4,638
709
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#20
No, Catholics believe that through infant baptism one becomes a child of God and must endure through good works. This is what Calvin believed.
They believe in free will use of the sacraments. You believe the same except for the sacrament obedience instead.