Documentary—7 Pretrib Problems and the Prewrath Rapture

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
2,719
750
113
There is no use with you, I have debated on 5 or 6 sites and you have yet t ever change one wrong opinion. You will see you were in error when you get t heaven.
I'm clearly not wrong and proved it with scripture...which you did not use in yours.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
10,350
2,529
113
It seem you assume tribulation as God judgment Noah escape from God wrath yes but tribulation is Satan wrath like what happen to Stephen and God let it happen for better resurrection I believe foolis girl not going to heaven to late for them
Take a look at the 4 horsemen. They are released by heaven at the start of the 7 year wrath.

I understand the acceleration and direct wrath of the last part of the trib.
I also understand indirect wrath where God uses other nations to Judge israel.

From what i see, the use of wrath vs tribulation helps some to make an imaginary dividing line to promote the post trib rapture doctrine.

All wrath contains tribulation. There is an overlap there.
Overlap of wrath and tribulation.

Look at what the 4 horsemen do and WHO releases them.
....and that would be at the very start of the 7 year great tribulation.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
1,711
1,030
113
London
All Christians are subject to tribulation (and hardly any to the extent to which Job suffered). But not "the Tribulation", which is God's judgment on the unbelieving and the ungodly. The wicked who love not the truth will therefore be placed under strong delusion so that they believe "the lie".
Tribulation and God's wrath are 2 things quite different.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
1,711
1,030
113
London
Notice I said can lead to apostasy. Maybe you missed that. What I am saying by can is that there is a possibility, not a definite outcome, to commit apostasy.
You are right Jesus Himself said many will fall away and be offended. Brother will deliver brother up to death. They will be offended because they were told they will not go through the tribulation .
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
1,711
1,030
113
London
I've never stated my position, actually. I'm not pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib. I frankly don't care. All positions can be supported with Scripture depended on how your interpret it. So.. again... total waste of time. You aren't going to change anyone's mind and if you're being honest, you aren't actually concerned with saving anyone. You're doing this for your own self-satisfaction.
you don't care? and yet here you are
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
1,711
1,030
113
London
Yes it's possible for a Spirit-filled believer to be deceived. Jesus warns His disciples in Matthew 24 to not be deceived and says it's possible the elect can be deceived.

Matthew 24:4
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Matthew 24:24-25
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before.

Paul also says it's possible that the Spirit-filled believers of Thessaloniki to be deceived and, like Jesus, expounds on the truth in order to avoid deception.

2 Thessalonians 2:3
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The devil loves Christians who think they can't be deceived. Avoiding deception is the whole reason we have the Bible.
Yes the warnings are there and we should heed them.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
5,618
3,903
113
What does it matter and why do you care when people believe they will be taken home?
Is it not important whether one believes the truth or a lie?
Or a lie mixed with truth to make the lie more believable?
"You will not surely die. "
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
1,275
462
83
Yes, found it on YouTube. Will watch later. Thanks!
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
1,275
462
83
Pre-trib rapture is a severely flawed doctrine.

Someone posted a challenge a few weeks ago or so, asking pre-tribbers to post a Bible verse that plainly states Jesus comes back before the great tribulation.

The challenge was to not use any opinion, commentary, or any other source besides the Bible.

I watched that thread for activity and as far as I know no one responded to it yet.

Why would pre-tribbers miss a golden opportunity to push their agenda? There is not a single Bible verse or passage that plainly states the rapture is pre-trib.

It requires extensive fiddling with the scriptures to produce the pre-trib doctrine. It cannot be taught using just a handful of plain scripture like the post-trib rapture can.

So no pre-tribber will accept this challenge.
True. And the best evidence of this is some of the desperate theories they've resorted to of late.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
5,618
3,903
113
If the resurrection was to occur before the tribulation, the saints will have put on immortality. The sons of God revealed.
Ergo there would be no need for them to evacuate the planet for protection.


The immortal body cannot be killed with conventional weapons.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
10,350
2,529
113
The Jewish people celebrate three Festivals of harvests every year, Th Barley Harvest, the Wheat Harvest, and the Grape Harvest. These are SHADOWS of the coming Harvests by God. All have First-fruits of course. Remember how Jesus told the Disciples about the parable of the What and the Tares? Israel is a part of the Wheat harvest, the Wheat grows TOGETHER with the tares until the very end. The Gentile Church and Messianic believers are the Barley Harvest which is harvested before the Wheat.

THREE MAIN HARVESTS OF THE SOUL

I will give you rains at the right season; the land will produce crops, and the trees of the field will produce their fruit. Your threshing will continue until the grape harvest, and your grape harvest will continue until it is time to plant. Then you will have plenty to eat and live safely in your land. ~ Leviticus 26:4-5, NCV

God can use a metaphor better than the most gifted writers. For example, He takes the Old Testament’s annual two grains and one fruit agricultural harvests and develops them into well-defined metaphors that describe the New Testament’s spiritual harvests of souls—those saved believers who enter into the Kingdom of God (see the rich harvest imagery in Matthew 9:36-38; John 4:35-36).

Now, in order to understand His metaphors, the three spiritual harvests of souls, believers first need to understand the significance of God’s three mandated major festivals that He situates within aforesaid agricultural harvests. The three agricultural-related mandated feasts that all Jewish men who, more than likely, are 20 years of age and older, had to attend are the Passover Feast, the Feast of Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles (cf. Exodus 23:14-17; Deuteronomy 16:16). Moreover, the two different grain harvests and the one fruit harvest that are compared to three spiritual harvests of souls are the Barley Harvest, Wheat Harvest, and Grapes Harvest—these harvest metaphors depict God’s harvest times as a time of opportunity in the here and now, and a time of final judgment.

It is important to note here that every crop of grain and fruit will have first fruits (the grain and fruit of every crop that ripens early), and every crop of grain and fruit will experience a time of separation. When the crop is ripe, it is harvested by separating the chaff or the refuse. Thus, mature barley goes through a time of separation or winnowing. Using a wooden fork or “fan,” winnowers throw the gathered barley against the wind so that the wind can separate the chaff (husk) from the grain. On the other hand, mature wheat goes through a time of separation or crushing/threshing. Using a tribulum, a wooden board with holes in it, or using a wooden sled, both of which oxen often pull, threshers stand or sit on the board or sled as it is drawn over the grain that is laying on the threshing floor, causing the grain to be separated from the husk (chaff) and straw.

Because barley and wheat still will have certain amounts of chaff, little stones, and/or some tares mixed in them, these grains must go through an additional time of separation or sifting (sieving). The sifters sit on the floor and shake the sieve, which contains the grain, until the chaff begins to appear on the top. Then the sifters blow away the chaff by using the power from their breath. Shifting, thus, is necessary before the grain can be ground into meal.

Lastly, the mature grapes also go through a time of separation or crushing (treading). Using a winepress, treaders crush the grapes until the grapes’ juice is separated from the grapes’ skins, which results in the pressed juice running into the vats.

Having said that, here, in a nutshell, are the three main spiritual Harvests of Souls:

FIRST HARVEST — BARLEY HARVEST (@first FRUITS FEAST)

See ~ Ephesians 5:27; ~ 1 Thessalonians 5:23, NCV; ~ 2 Peter 3:14, NCV

The Barley Harvest represents the overcomers. These are the saints whose hearts are tender—the repentant on-fire believers, whose body, soul, and spirit are without spot or blemish; completely sanctified unleavened lives driven by the Wind of the Holy Spirit. Like Christ Jesus, they too are Firstfruits; they are the Bride of Christ; they are the redeemed, resurrected, never-to-die again, glorified sons and daughters of God, and they are the FIRST PHASE of the spiritual Harvest of Souls who participate in the 1st resurrection. Furthermore, some of them will be the resurrected dead in Christ AND some will be the raptured alive in Christ (see 1 Corinthians 15:51- 54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

More important, these overcomers have been winnowed, which means they did not need to be harvested by using a “TRIBULUM” (Latin word from which comes the English word, Tribulation). In other words, the Barley Harvest of Souls will NOT have to go through the seven-year TRIBULATION, of which the last 3½ years are going to be the time of great distress and great pressure that this world has never seen before, and will never see again.

SECOND HARVEST — WHEAT HARVEST (@FEAST OF PENTECOST)

See ~ Matthew 3:11-12; ~ Matthew 13:38-39; ~ Revelation 14:14-16, NCV

The Wheat Harvest represents all the rest of the believers—the left behind hardhearted and/or carnal believers who were not ready when the Bride of Christ was raptured. These believers must endure the seven-year Tribulation, and for them, the Great Tribulation (the last 3½ years) is a judgment that can be compared to the most severe action of Wheat threshing that is done in order to make the Wheat easier to separate (easier to winnow) away from the chaff. The Wheat Harvest, thus, represents those believers who are asleep, in the spiritual sense (see Matthew 13:25). Furthermore, the Firstfruits of this Wheat Harvest will be the martyred (beheaded) saints who are the SECOND PHASE of the spiritual Harvest of Souls who participate in the 1st resurrection, and the remaining mature Wheat will be those surviving Tribulation saints—the left-behind believers who have been thoroughly purged; see Revelation 7:13-14).

Also mixed in with this left-behind Harvest of Wheat are many left behind evangelized unbelievers (Jews and Gentiles) who, during the seven-year Tribulation, finally will accept Jesus the Christ as their personal Savior! Together with the surviving Tribulation’s left-behind believers, these Tribulation converts will be those Tribulation survivors biblically described as “…a great multitude, which no man could number…” (Revelation 7:9).

THIRD HARVEST — GRAPES HARVEST (@FEAST OF TABERNACLES)

See ~ Revelation 14:17-20; ~ Revelation 19:15

The Grapes Harvest represents the unbelievers who, for the most part, will be part of the massive crop of unbelievers who are in the 2nd resurrection—those centuries of unbelievers who will be judged according to their works (see Revelation 20:11-13). Moreover, many of these Grapes are Tribulation unbelievers who have heard the Gospel but made a choice to not make the Gospel a part of their lives—they chose not to accept Jesus the Christ as their Lord and personal Savior. These Grapes, thus, are the Tribulation’s unspiritual Harvest of Souls who have been thrown in the great winepress of God’s wrath, which thoroughly extracts juice (life) from “crushed” Grapes (see Revelation 14:19). Put differently, the Grapes and their seeds are UTTERLY and TOTALLY CRUSHED!

In contrast, the Firstfruits of the Grapes Harvest are the 144,000 last days’ redeemed unmarried translated/raptured Messianic Jews (see Revelation 14:3-4). These blameless, undefiled, and faithful followers of Jesus the Christ are the THIRD PHASE of the spiritual Harvest of Souls who participate in the 1st resurrection, because just like the alive Bride of Christ these 144,000 saints will be raptured (redeemed or resurrected; raised up) alive!

Are you breathing? Then a word to the wise should be sufficient!!!


https://gone-fishin.org//?s=Three+Harvests&search=Go
Another dynamic to that is that ruth meets boaz at the barley harvest.
Ruth represents the gentile bride and boaz represents Jesus.
Naomi comes in through redemtion/family/property.
(Ruth is also redeemed, but becomes the wife of boaz and is in the lineage of king david.)
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
892
106
43
Another dynamic to that is that ruth meets boaz at the barley harvest.
Ruth represents the gentile bride and boaz represents Jesus.
Naomi comes in through redemtion/family/property.
(Ruth is also redeemed, but becomes the wife of boaz and is in the lineage of king david.)
Another dynamic to that is that ruth meets boaz at the barley harvest.
Ruth represents the gentile bride and boaz represents Jesus.
Naomi comes in through redemtion/family/property.
(Ruth is also redeemed, but becomes the wife of boaz and is in the lineage of king david.)
Most of these guys really have no business trying to teach the bible, they first need to humble themselves and realize they know very little about God or the bible, they are still making mistakes young Christians on milk make.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
3,214
2,101
113
If the resurrection was to occur before the tribulation, the saints will have put on immortality. The sons of God revealed.
Ergo there would be no need for them to evacuate the planet for protection.


The immortal body cannot be killed with conventional weapons.
Interesting point. I have never heard this before, but it makes perfect sense to me.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
3,214
2,101
113
True. And the best evidence of this is some of the desperate theories they've resorted to of late.
Another fun one is that 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 speaks of the return of Christ, first resurrection, and rapture. Revelation 20:4-6 says the resurrection doesn't even occur until after the great tribulation.

The return of Christ, resurrection, and rapture are post-trib. This is just one of many proofs. I can talk about this for months... I've done it before.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
10,673
1,162
113
Take a look at the 4 horsemen. They are released by heaven at the start of the 7 year wrath.

I understand the acceleration and direct wrath of the last part of the trib.
I also understand indirect wrath where God uses other nations to Judge israel.

From what i see, the use of wrath vs tribulation helps some to make an imaginary dividing line to promote the post trib rapture doctrine.

All wrath contains tribulation. There is an overlap there.
Overlap of wrath and tribulation.

Look at what the 4 horsemen do and WHO releases them.
....and that would be at the very start of the 7 year great tribulation.
It happen in Moses time God wrath on agypt it didn't mean Israel not protected
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
1,275
462
83
Most of these guys really have no business trying to teach the bible, they first need to humble themselves and realize they know very little about God or the bible, they are still making mistakes young Christians on milk make.
You're the one who has no business teaching anything. Your lengthy posts have the appearance of intelligence but they actually say nothing. If you really had a point to make you could make it intelligibly and in a straightforward manner. I say this without malice or ill-will.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
7,937
1,545
113
In other words, by your theory, the rapture can't come until the rapture comes first.
I noticed you're inserting the word "rapture" into two entirely distinct places (when "explaining" the idea presented), which does not accurately convey the thought.

Why do you do this?
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
1,275
462
83
I noticed you're inserting the word "rapture" into two entirely distinct places (when "explaining" the idea presented), which does not accurately convey the thought.

Why do you do this?
Some translations translate apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as "departure." Apostasia can mean departure, but not in a spatial sense, as in a departure from one place to another. Some pre-tribbers believe the departure spoken of in v. 3 is the rapture. But it cannot possibly be. Even if we assume it might be, the passage makes no sense if we do. It would mean "the rapture cannot come unless the rapture comes first." This nonsensical.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
7,937
1,545
113
^ The nonsensical (being conveyed) is in your own mind, though, because the sentence you presented, "the rapture cannot come unless the rapture comes first" is not what the sentence would be conveying (provided the word "departure [i.e. rapture]" is used in place of "apostasia," as was presented).

You are inserting the word "rapture" twice, where only once is appropriate (given the substitution of the word "rapture [/i.e. departure]" in place of "apostasia"), in this explanation. I am unsure why you do this.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
3,214
2,101
113
^ The nonsensical (being conveyed) is in your own mind, though, because the sentence you presented, "the rapture cannot come unless the rapture comes first" is not what the sentence would be conveying (provided the word "departure [i.e. rapture]" is used in place of "apostasia," as was presented).

You are inserting the word "rapture" twice, where only once is appropriate (given the substitution of the word "rapture [/i.e. departure]" in place of "apostasia"), in this explanation. I am unsure why you do this.
If I read correctly, I think what he is saying is that it's possible to test the plausibility of a pre-trib rapture by cross-examining it within the context of the passages of 2 Thess. 2.

If apostasia means a departure (rapture) of the church then the way the sentence reads would literally be something like "the departure will not occur until the departure occurs." This adds nothing of value to Paul's thesis, is redundant, and creates a contradiction later in the chapter.

Pre-tribbers assert the departure of the church occurs when Jesus returns, before the great tribulation, and before the man of sin is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 stands in contradiction to a pre-tribulation return of Christ. Jesus returns after the man of sin (that Wicked) is revealed, meaning that the great tribulation already happened.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: