Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

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Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
6,563
2,263
113
#21
Before the question can be answered, we must first understand the importance of “Hebrew Chiastic Structure”. A “chiasm” is a form of Hebrew poetry where not words, but ideas, are rhymed. It's a literary device in which the ideas are arranged as “ABXBA”, “ABBA”, “ABAB”, or other variations. Chiasms are extremely important to hermeneutics because they are “guideposts” which help us to determine if our interpretations are on track or way off course because correct interpretations leave the chiasms intact, while incorrect interpretations destroy them. Many false ideas, especially eschatological ideas, stem from Bible "scholars" ignoring chiasms within the texts. Here are two examples of a chiasm from Psalms 33, the entirely of which is one chiasm after another:

Psalms 33:6 KJV
A. Word of the Lord
B. Heavens
B. Host of them
A. Breath of His mouth


Psalms 33:9 KJV
A. He spake
B. it was done
A. He commanded
B. it stood fast

That said, now let's examine 1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV:
“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with Him”.

Can you recognize the chiasm? Here it is:
A. Jesus died (death)
B. rose again (resurrection)
A. sleep in Jesus (death)
B. will God bring forth from death (resurrection)


How do we know “bring” refers to “bring forth from death” and not “bring from heaven back to Earth”? Because this interpretation leaves the chiasm intact (“ABAB”) while the popular yet erroneous interpretation “bring from heaven back to Earth” destroys the chiasm (“ABA--”).

Another reason we know is that the emphasis of the entire passage of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 KJV focuses on the fate of the dead saints, not the Second Coming. Paul's message here is to the bereaved Thessalonian saints who are concerned about what happened to their dearly departed loved ones, and with it he assures them that they are sleeping in Jesus, they will wake at the sound of Lord's shout, voice, and trumpet and rise forth from death, and they will be caught up to Jesus in the clouds first, followed by “we that are alive and remain”.

Finally, the very last thing Paul told these bereaved Thessalonians saints is that they were to “comfort one another with these words”, but with what words? That the dead are in heaven? No! With words of the resurrection. Paul wants all Christians to know that just as surely as God brought Jesus forth from the dead, so God will bring the sleeping saints forth from death "with Him", or "in like manner".
where are these saints ?

“And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Seems like they were resting until this

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

no need to count the living

“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

who already passed from death to life being promised eternal and everlasting life

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.



among the dead


Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24, 28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Might want to consider where the souls of the saved are after they leave thier body

“Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:6, 8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There’s a promised land we enter when we cross over Jordan and leave this world

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:13, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That city is here where the spirits of justified men dwell with the lord

“But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven,

and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-25‬ ‭

The last resurrection is for those who refuse the life through rebirth , in the gospel.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
18,543
9,461
113
#22
Seems like they were resting until this
It is the bodies which were resting (or giving the appearance of rest when reposing in their graves). "The saints which slept" means "The saints who had died". But their souls and spirits had been delivered from Sheol/Hades at the resurrection of Christ. We do not really know too much about these resurrected saints, and they are not mentioned later on by anyone. Soul Sleep is a false doctrine which is being discussed in another thread.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
6,016
2,924
113
#23
You're free to deny the chiasm all you want, but Paul is a Hebrew and utilized chiasms all the time, as Hebrew writers did constantly in their literary works. It's "ABAB", not "ABA--"

Solomon, the wisest man who ever lived, plainly says "the dead know not anything" which includes the glorious presence of God in the heavenly courts. They'll continue to not know anything until the resurrection.
You’re free to deny that “bring" refers a to literal, lateral movement across the universe but consider that a literal lateral movement across a distance of space is how Jesus ascended to heaven, how Jesus will descend to earth, and the rapture will occur through a literal lateral movement, across space, to the sky.

When people die their spirits are with God per Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Those who are asleep in Christ God will bring with Christ at His return literally, laterally, across space.

Consider you have the chiasm wrong and that it produces an inconsistent Biblical interpretation.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
6,563
2,263
113
#24
It is the bodies which were resting (or giving the appearance of rest when reposing in their graves). "The saints which slept" means "The saints who had died". But their souls and spirits had been delivered from Sheol/Hades at the resurrection of Christ. We do not really know too much about these resurrected saints, and they are not mentioned later on by anyone. Soul Sleep is a false doctrine which is being discussed in another thread.
This is your opinion is the thing,it just says what it says actually

“And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Your opinions are all based on how you interpret scripture. It doesn’t mean everyone’s going to interpret it your way though

I do know and try to stay with what the scripture says the examples we have in scripture like what Moses was told before Christ

“And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭31:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

like what was told to David before his death before Christ

“And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers,

I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.”
‭‭2 Samuel‬ ‭7:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you are free to them say “ it doesn’t mean sleep “ but that’s not how I myself see it. Given the New Testament seems like it changed Alot for mankind in death

This is what Jesus tells a dying man

“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this is what Jesus tells a dead man

“And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:43-44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is what Jesus says to believers

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this is what happens To the grave when Jesus the resurrection and life rose up in victory

“And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭

It seems like I’m the ot people’s spirits slept to me waiting for the king to come with life and deliverance from the grave.

and in the New Testament men are promised eternal Life and deliverance from death through belief

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s what is said to those who accept to gospel his word of life. I think it’s important to look at mans creation a living spirit placed into a created body , and death when the created body decays and the living spirit returns to God for judgement and accountability of what they did while they lived in thier body
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,075
384
83
#25
Before the question can be answered, we must first understand the importance of “Hebrew Chiastic Structure”. A “chiasm” is a form of Hebrew poetry where not words, but ideas, are rhymed. It's a literary device in which the ideas are arranged as “ABXBA”, “ABBA”, “ABAB”, or other variations. Chiasms are extremely important to hermeneutics because they are “guideposts” which help us to determine if our interpretations are on track or way off course because correct interpretations leave the chiasms intact, while incorrect interpretations destroy them. Many false ideas, especially eschatological ideas, stem from Bible "scholars" ignoring chiasms within the texts. Here are two examples of a chiasm from Psalms 33, the entirely of which is one chiasm after another:

Psalms 33:6 KJV
A. Word of the Lord
B. Heavens
B. Host of them
A. Breath of His mouth


Psalms 33:9 KJV
A. He spake
B. it was done
A. He commanded
B. it stood fast

That said, now let's examine 1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV:
“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with Him”.

Can you recognize the chiasm? Here it is:
A. Jesus died (death)
B. rose again (resurrection)
A. sleep in Jesus (death)
B. will God bring forth from death (resurrection)


How do we know “bring” refers to “bring forth from death” and not “bring from heaven back to Earth”? Because this interpretation leaves the chiasm intact (“ABAB”) while the popular yet erroneous interpretation “bring from heaven back to Earth” destroys the chiasm (“ABA--”).

Another reason we know is that the emphasis of the entire passage of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 KJV focuses on the fate of the dead saints, not the Second Coming. Paul's message here is to the bereaved Thessalonian saints who are concerned about what happened to their dearly departed loved ones, and with it he assures them that they are sleeping in Jesus, they will wake at the sound of Lord's shout, voice, and trumpet and rise forth from death, and they will be caught up to Jesus in the clouds first, followed by “we that are alive and remain”.

Finally, the very last thing Paul told these bereaved Thessalonians saints is that they were to “comfort one another with these words”, but with what words? That the dead are in heaven? No! With words of the resurrection. Paul wants all Christians to know that just as surely as God brought Jesus forth from the dead, so God will bring the sleeping saints forth from death "with Him", or "in like manner".
A different perspective:

I Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(MY NOTE:: 4:16 believers that have already died will be raised/caught-up/raptured 4:17 & they meet the Lord ""IN THE AIR"")

These next verses proclaim these saints are WITH Christ at his physical return when his FEET TOUCH THE GROUND on Mt Olive!

Zec 14:5 On that day His feet will stand on Mt Olive. The Mt will split in 2 from east to west. Then the Lord your God will come, & """all the saints with Him"""
(MY NOTE: On the day when Jesus FEET stand on Mt Olive)

Jude 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, """the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints"""
(MY NOTE: At Christ's physical return on Mt Olive He has the saints from the catching-up/rapture WITH Him)

1 Thes 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, """at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints""".
(MY NOTE: At Christ's physical return on Mt Olive He has the saints from the catching-up/rapture WITH Him)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
18,543
9,461
113
#26
This is your opinion is the thing,it just says what it says actually
Oh so that is just an "opinion"? Where do you think the souls and spirits of those saints were? Six feet under? And do you know anything about Sheol/Hades? Do you know where the soul and spirit of Christ were while He was in the tomb?
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,594
444
83
#28
I Thessalonians 4:13-18: "The promise of CHRIST'S return (Rapture); of a resurrected body for New Testament saints (Fulfilled - Revelation 4:1-2) . . . "
Fanciful...to say the least, and certainly erroneous!
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
6,563
2,263
113
#29
It is the bodies which were resting (or giving the appearance of rest when reposing in their graves). "The saints which slept" means "The saints who had died". But their souls and spirits had been delivered from Sheol/Hades at the resurrection of Christ. We do not really know too much about these resurrected saints, and they are not mentioned later on by anyone. Soul Sleep is a false doctrine which is being discussed in another thread.
brother there are two bodies a flesh body made of dust and a spiritual body within

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:

it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:42-45, 47-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We aren’t raised in our flesh body it was only for our temporary life on earth, it’s like a seed that’s planted and our glorified spiritual body is raised from death born for the kingdom of heaven.

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35-37‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Lazarus spirit was sleeping in his dead body

The maiden he raised from death was sleeping and not dead so clearly they aren’t the same thing

“And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8:52‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Sleep isn’t another word for death they are different. The flesh dies and decays returns to dust. It’s nothing. But the spiritual body is alive and those who would be saved used to rest waiting for salvation and resurrection of thier spiritual body to come in Christ.

those saints who’s bodies rose up are thier spiritual bodies made for the kingdom because it had come in Christ.

there is a natural world that’s temporal and temporary the flesh body is our home in this world

there is an eternal spiritual world when we part the flesh that’s eternal we have another body for the spiritual world

the resurrection of the dead isn’t for Christians they are alive already in Christ they are given life from the dead here by faith

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we are born again of the spirit , we’re different than if we aren’t born again of the spirit. If we’re born again we’re not going to die or sleep we’re going to leave our flesh body made for this earth and join the lord in paradise in the form of our spiritual glorified body.

the kingdom is already in full swing in heaven there’s a lot of living folks there who passed through the earth Waiting for the rest of gods children to jeer the gospel and be saved from death and hell by the lord who holds the key to death and hell having conquered both for believers.

death is different now we go to dwell on the house of the lord forever and celebrate The wedding of the lamb forever. As treasured and welcomed guests and beloved family of God in an eternal World where flesh and blood give way to spirit and truth.
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
506
113
#30
By definition a chiasm repeats the previous verses only in reverse order doesn't it? For 1 Thessalonians 4:14 to be a chiasm the verses would have to appear as ABBA. Is that correct?
Actually, chiasms can occur as "ABXBA", "ABBA", "ABAB", "ABCCBA", etc. They're just referred to as "chi" which is "X" in the Greek because of the "crossing" nature of the literary action.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
18,543
9,461
113
#31
This is only a few reasons why I believe the righteous and the unrighteous are in the earth, and when the Lord calls us we are resurrected from the earth and not brought from heaven above. The unrighteous will be resurrected to stand before the Lord at the White Throne Judgement at the end of the 1000 years.
1. There is no one "in the earth" if by that you mean the sub-soil. When people die their souls and spirits immediately depart either to Heaven (if they are in Christ) or to Sheol/Hades (if they are not saved). All the OT saints were in Sheol/Hades until the resurrection of Christ. At that time He took them all to Paradise in the New Jerusalem (which is in Heaven). Since then, upon death, every child of God goes to be with Christ in Heaven.

2. At the Resurrection/Rapture all the saints who died will be re-united with their resurrection bodies. Christ will bring them from Heaven for this purpose. So to say that they are not brought from Heaven above is to contradict Scripture. They are brought from Heaven and also return to Heaven.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
18,543
9,461
113
#32
brother there are two bodies a flesh body made of dust and a spiritual body within
The resurrected body is called a "spiritual body" because it is free from the limitations of our present bodies. But it is the same body totally transformed and perfected. That dust is transformed into this "spiritual body". So there are no two different bodies but the same body supernaturally transformed.

Proof? Did Christ rise in the same body which was placed in the tomb, and which had the nail prints in His hands and feet, and the wound in His side? Absolutely, and that is exactly what Thomas saw and believed. At the same time was that body free from human limitations? Absolutely. Christ entered that upper room even though the doors were closed! But did He ascend to Heaven in that same body? Absolutely. Once again showing that it was free from human limitations. So that is exactly what will happen to the bodies of the saints. You can call that a "spiritual body" or a "resurrection body" or a "transformed body". Makes no difference.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
19,930
5,583
113
#33
Jesus Yeshua was being transformed from the instant of His rising to the moment He ascended to His rightful place with the Father. How anyone can add to this is hard to believe.

I cannot say Right, Correct, or wrong but I am able to say dismayed.
 

kleronomos

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2021
1,289
177
63
#34
You're free to deny the chiasm all you want, but Paul is a Hebrew and utilized chiasms all the time, as Hebrew writers did constantly in their literary works. It's "ABAB", not "ABA--"

Solomon, the wisest man who ever lived, plainly says "the dead know not anything" which includes the glorious presence of God in the heavenly courts. They'll continue to not know anything until the resurrection.

Should we ADD 'an explanation' whenever something doesn't fit with our beliefs? Here PAUL tells us how his approaches changed. So how do you then decide what one it is? Implying everyone who doesn't know the Hebrew language customs of the 1st century can never know the true words of GOD might not be a good idea. Doesn't that contradict what the words of God tell us?

We know he wasn't speaking to the Hebrews when speaking to the church at Thessalonica

1Corinthians 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law 21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law 22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some 23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.


Paul was just giving information to the new folks.

We know everyone will stand on judgment day and so there was no 'death' before. We are told 'the graves opened and the captivity lead captive, and that He went to prepare a place for us to be where He is, and that He is the life and the resurrection, and that the rich man could see Lazarus on the other side, and the thief would be in paradise with Him, and that they would be returning with Christ, and that we never die, and that we only pass through death so how does that fit in?. Do you believe in the pre tribulation rapture theory? Who are the souls under the altar asking how long? Isn't He returning with SAINTS?

When Martha spoke of a last day, HE DIDN'T agree with her, instead He gave us truth. Do you believe what He said?


The real question we need to ask is
DID THE DEATH OF JESUS CHANGE ANYTHING OR DID death and dying REMAIN AS they ALWAYS HAD BEEN? DID ADAMS SIN BRING ABOUT DEATH BUT CHRISTS SACRIFICE and the removing of sin HAVE NO EFFECT?
 

kleronomos

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2021
1,289
177
63
#35
But it is the same body totally transformed and perfected. That dust is transformed into this "spiritual body". So there are no two different bodies but the same body supernaturally transformed.

1Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.



Take a seed and plant it in the ground. The seed DIES and a plant is raised up looking nothing like the seed that went into the ground. The flesh goes back to the dust from where it came.
 
Dec 17, 2021
32
27
18
#36
where are these saints ?

“And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Seems like they were resting until this

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

no need to count the living

“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

who already passed from death to life being promised eternal and everlasting life

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.



among the dead


Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24, 28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Might want to consider where the souls of the saved are after they leave thier body

“Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:6, 8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There’s a promised land we enter when we cross over Jordan and leave this world

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:13, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That city is here where the spirits of justified men dwell with the lord

“But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven,

and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-25‬ ‭

The last resurrection is for those who refuse the life through rebirth , in the gospel.
Hello! I hope you had a merry Christmas and have a blessed new year!

Are you a Seventh Day Adventist or Jehovah’s Witness? If not, what is your denomination? I’m trying to under where you are coming from to believe the way you do about the “soul sleep” doctrine.

Also, I have three questions for you:

Are you saved/born again?
When were you saved?
How we’re you saved, and by who?
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
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#37
Hello! I hope you had a merry Christmas and have a blessed new year!

Are you a Seventh Day Adventist or Jehovah’s Witness? If not, what is your denomination? I’m trying to under where you are coming from to believe the way you do about the “soul sleep” doctrine.

Also, I have three questions for you:

Are you saved/born again?
When were you saved?
How we’re you saved, and by who?
That post was mostly scripture and I didn’t see anything extra-Biblical added to it. In summary, the dead bodies are in the ground and the spirit is with the Lord.

Out of curiosity, what did you see that made you think of SDAs or JWs?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#38
The flesh goes back to the dust from where it came.
That's a given. Dust to dust. Focus on the supernatural miracle of resurrection. The same person, the same body, yet a transformed body without human limitations. James will not get Peter's body, but it will be the body of James. And Peter will recognize James, just a the apostles recognized Christ after His resurrection.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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London
#39
Before the question can be answered, we must first understand the importance of “Hebrew Chiastic Structure”. A “chiasm” is a form of Hebrew poetry where not words, but ideas, are rhymed. It's a literary device in which the ideas are arranged as “ABXBA”, “ABBA”, “ABAB”, or other variations. Chiasms are extremely important to hermeneutics because they are “guideposts” which help us to determine if our interpretations are on track or way off course because correct interpretations leave the chiasms intact, while incorrect interpretations destroy them. Many false ideas, especially eschatological ideas, stem from Bible "scholars" ignoring chiasms within the texts. Here are two examples of a chiasm from Psalms 33, the entirely of which is one chiasm after another:

Psalms 33:6 KJV
A. Word of the Lord
B. Heavens
B. Host of them
A. Breath of His mouth


Psalms 33:9 KJV
A. He spake
B. it was done
A. He commanded
B. it stood fast

That said, now let's examine 1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV:
“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with Him”.

Can you recognize the chiasm? Here it is:
A. Jesus died (death)
B. rose again (resurrection)
A. sleep in Jesus (death)
B. will God bring forth from death (resurrection)


How do we know “bring” refers to “bring forth from death” and not “bring from heaven back to Earth”? Because this interpretation leaves the chiasm intact (“ABAB”) while the popular yet erroneous interpretation “bring from heaven back to Earth” destroys the chiasm (“ABA--”).

Another reason we know is that the emphasis of the entire passage of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 KJV focuses on the fate of the dead saints, not the Second Coming. Paul's message here is to the bereaved Thessalonian saints who are concerned about what happened to their dearly departed loved ones, and with it he assures them that they are sleeping in Jesus, they will wake at the sound of Lord's shout, voice, and trumpet and rise forth from death, and they will be caught up to Jesus in the clouds first, followed by “we that are alive and remain”.

Finally, the very last thing Paul told these bereaved Thessalonians saints is that they were to “comfort one another with these words”, but with what words? That the dead are in heaven? No! With words of the resurrection. Paul wants all Christians to know that just as surely as God brought Jesus forth from the dead, so God will bring the sleeping saints forth from death "with Him", or "in like manner".
When Jesus comes next is for to take His people home ... His coming to judge the living and the dead is an entirely different event. It happens after He has reigned with His saints for a 1, 000 years.

In Revs 20 they are called the first and second resurrections.

It is at the second resurrection unto judgement that God brings us with Him.
 
Dec 17, 2021
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#40
That post was mostly scripture and I didn’t see anything extra-Biblical added to it. In summary, the dead bodies are in the ground and the spirit is with the Lord.

Out of curiosity, what did you see that made you think of SDAs or JWs?

The part of the post that said the following:

“Finally, the very last thing Paul told these bereaved Thessalonians saints is that they were to “comfort one another with these words”, but with what words? That the dead are in heaven? No! With words of the resurrection. Paul wants all Christians to know that just as surely as God brought Jesus forth from the dead, so God will bring the sleeping saints forth from death "with Him", or "in like manner". “


The original post itself, and the the conversation as it unfolded in the next few comments and replies, specifically one a few posts down from the OP:


[ jb said:
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz! It is the body that sleeps, and NOT the soul! Matt 27v51-53


So, you have nothing to offer by way of discounting the OP material? Good, that only serves to strengthen the claims therein. As far as your verse in Matthew, it actually says the "saints which slept", meaning the whole saint was sleeping, not just the body.


jb said:
Luke 20v37,38


I hear this all the time as "proof" that "the God of the living" demands the saints must be alive in heaven, in Abraham's Bosom, etc., while dead in the grave. They are not.

Just as the Bible refers to the wicked woman (or man) as spiritually "dead while she liveth", it refers to the dead in Christ as "spiritually alive" while they are dead.

They have ceased to be, yet are reckoned alive by God because at the appointed time, Jesus will come and resurrect them ]



It seems to me that Phoneman777 is supporting a belief that many refer to as “the soul-sleep doctrine”. I asked if he was JW or SDA because both have a very similar belief as the soul sleep doctrine. I know this because I have met and spoken with many SDAs, JWs, and people who have come out of these churches, as well as research.




EDIT: I apologize, I am very new to this site and still learning how to use it.