does evil exist before the angels?

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Feb 14, 2011
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#1

does evil exist before God created heaven and the angels?
lets see if anyone can answer this question,without giving
pages and pages of scriptures for us to read.
for this can not be explained using the scriptures i think.
so make it plain and simple. thank you guys.

''wakeup''.
 
Jan 18, 2011
1,117
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#2
does evil exist before God created heaven and the angels?
lets see if anyone can answer this question,without giving
pages and pages of scriptures for us to read.
for this can not be explained using the scriptures i think.
so make it plain and simple. thank you guys.

''wakeup''.
How about this one. Do we really know that the angelic rebellion happened before the creation of the world? How do we know? Does the Bible really give us any specific information about what point in time this actually happened?
 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
#3
does evil exist before God created heaven and the angels?
lets see if anyone can answer this question,without giving
pages and pages of scriptures for us to read.
for this can not be explained using the scriptures i think.
so make it plain and simple. thank you guys.

''wakeup''.

Evil did not exist before the creation. There was only God.

Evil, and the need for Hell, was a natural byproduct of the creation. Because God knew that man would eventually sin, due to the existence of evil, (which had to exist in order for there to be a choice), He purposed a plan in which man could be atoned for. This would require the death of His own son. Only a loving God would do this.

Because God wanted to create humans and angels with the free will to accept to love Him, or to deny Him, this self-limitation of God's sovereignty allowed for sin to be committed by free will acts of these agents. Because God is holy, and cannot abide in sin, He had to provide for a means of separating Himself from this sin. That in effect is what Hell is, the eternal separation from God.

God could have created a world without evil, but any creation which does not allow evil to exist, results in destroying man's ability to choose between good from evil, or for that matter, to even know the difference. We could never love God in any real sense of the word, for we would not know what love is. How can we know love, if we have never experienced the absense of it? Any other solution is a sterile world, with God controlling everything, even our ability to choose to love Him. God doesn't want that. That was Satan's proposal.
 
Feb 14, 2011
1,783
4
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#4
How about this one. Do we really know that the angelic rebellion happened before the creation of the world? How do we know? Does the Bible really give us any specific information about what point in time this actually happened?

no; my question was, did evil exist before God created everything:?
so try again.
 
Feb 14, 2011
1,783
4
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#5
Evil did not exist before the creation. There was only God.

Evil, and the need for Hell, was a natural byproduct of the creation. Because God knew that man would eventually sin, due to the existence of evil, (which had to exist in order for there to be a choice), He purposed a plan in which man could be atoned for. This would require the death of His own son. Only a loving God would do this.

Because God wanted to create humans and angels with the free will to accept to love Him, or to deny Him, this self-limitation of God's sovereignty allowed for sin to be committed by free will acts of these agents. Because God is holy, and cannot abide in sin, He had to provide for a means of separating Himself from this sin. That in effect is what Hell is, the eternal separation from God.

God could have created a world without evil, but any creation which does not allow evil to exist, results in destroying man's ability to choose between good from evil, or for that matter, to even know the difference. We could never love God in any real sense of the word, for we would not know what love is. How can we know love, if we have never experienced the absense of it? Any other solution is a sterile world, with God controlling everything, even our ability to choose to love Him. God doesn't want that. That was Satan's proposal.

thank you super dave, but just imagine GOD alone, before everthing was created.
was the spirit of evil there, and the spirit of good also. can you see where i am coming from?
 
Feb 14, 2011
1,783
4
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#6
How about this one. Do we really know that the angelic rebellion happened before the creation of the world? How do we know? Does the Bible really give us any specific information about what point in time this actually happened?

we need to think deeper than that,when evil entered lucifers heart it must have existed.
the spirit of evil it self must have been there, to enter in his mind.
to jog your mind a little. thank you,t. i. t. n.
 
E

endofallfears

Guest
#7
The possibility of the existence of evil began with the creation of the angels themselves. Being created beings, the opportunity for them to become corrupt is a result of their existence. To our biblical knowledge, we don't know when Lucifer rebelled against God, or when the corruption of his nature took root. All we know is that the act of God creating anything produces the opportunity for evil to exist.
 
May 25, 2010
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#8
Evil could not have existed before God anything since there was only GOD. Sin (evil)
came by the Law because without the Law there is no sin.
I reject the interpretation that GOD knew man would fall, even before man was
created; although, GOD knew of all the possibilities or outcomes. But it was necessary
for GOD to have a way to eject evil from Paradise if Adam would be unrighteous, hence the LAW.
The mystery of sin is that it began in the mind of Lucifer when he first considered how
he might deceive Eve.
 
Feb 14, 2011
1,783
4
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#9
The possibility of the existence of evil began with the creation of the angels themselves. Being created beings, the opportunity for them to become corrupt is a result of their existence. To our biblical knowledge, we don't know when Lucifer rebelled against God, or when the corruption of his nature took root. All we know is that the act of God creating anything produces the opportunity for evil to exist.

yes; i can see where you are coming from,but evil it self must have existed to enter in to lucifers mind. then evil manifested in the garden. it was phisically born so to speak.
and now he is guilty,for acting what was in him. one can not be guilty for just thinking ,until it is performed.
 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
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#10
thank you super dave, but just imagine GOD alone, before everthing was created.
was the spirit of evil there, and the spirit of good also. can you see where i am coming from?
Evil is a concept. Concepts are created in the minds of rational, intelligent beings. The concept of evil may have existed in the mind of God prior to the creation, however the reality of evil, i.e. evil incarnate did not.

In order for evil to become a reality, required a created world, with rational, intelligent beings, who had the free will to choose. When the angels chose to rebel against God, this concept became a reality with real effects on a real world.
 
Dec 19, 2009
27,513
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#11
does evil exist before God created heaven and the angels?
lets see if anyone can answer this question,without giving
pages and pages of scriptures for us to read.
for this can not be explained using the scriptures i think.
so make it plain and simple. thank you guys.

''wakeup''.
I would define “evil” as “pain.” The Lord was going to do evil, but he never had any sin in him. He was going to cause pain.

Pain is a necessary part of creation. When we sin, we experience pain. This exerts pressure on us not to commit sin. That is good.
 
E

endofallfears

Guest
#12
yes; i can see where you are coming from,but evil it self must have existed to enter in to lucifers mind. then evil manifested in the garden. it was phisically born so to speak.
and now he is guilty,for acting what was in him. one can not be guilty for just thinking ,until it is performed.
Evil is neither pre-existent or self-existent. It did not exist prior to creation, nor was it an independent creation. Evil is a product of corruption which stems from the inherent imperfection of all created things. The basis is this: God is perfect. Anything not God is not perfect.

The requirement of perfection is the incommunicable attributes of God. Created beings do not have these attributes and are therefore imperfect. The imperfection of created beings means they are not eternal and are subject to change. If we consider the moment of creation the absolute best condition a created being can have, then any change will be an entropic slide toward corruption.

Corruption in material will be demonstrated in age and breakdown in cohesiveness. For a created being capable of thought, corruption will be a breakdown of the initially provided divine character to a character focused on the self. This process will ultimately give rise to the existence of evil with the heart of the created being, loss of humility and the desire for independence from God will be the first motivators in the evil being.
 
I

Israel

Guest
#13
Isaiah 45:7

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I won't say "existed". More that the knowlege of evil was there.
 
C

Crazy4GODword

Guest
#14
How about this one. Do we really know that the angelic rebellion happened before the creation of the world? How do we know? Does the Bible really give us any specific information about what point in time this actually happened?
well in the bible it does tells us how satan got casted down from heaven....
 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
#15
Evil is neither pre-existent or self-existent. It did not exist prior to creation, nor was it an independent creation. Evil is a product of corruption which stems from the inherent imperfection of all created things. The basis is this: God is perfect. Anything not God is not perfect.

God can and does create perfection. Our resurrected bodies when Christ returns will be perfect, and will not see corruption. God inspected His creation and declared it "good".

The requirement of perfection is the incommunicable attributes of God. Created beings do not have these attributes and are therefore imperfect. The imperfection of created beings means they are not eternal and are subject to change. If we consider the moment of creation the absolute best condition a created being can have, then any change will be an entropic slide toward corruption.

There was no corruption, nor was the creation subject to entropy prior to sin being made manifest in the world. If Adam and Eve had not sinned, they would have lived forever. God made that clear. He said that on the day that you eat of the forbidden tree, (disobey God, manifesting sin and evil), then you shall surely die.

Corruption in material will be demonstrated in age and breakdown in cohesiveness. For a created being capable of thought, corruption will be a breakdown of the initially provided divine character to a character focused on the self. This process will ultimately give rise to the existence of evil with the heart of the created being, loss of humility and the desire for independence from God will be the first motivators in the evil being.
The fact that the concept of evil was present in the created world did not make it imperfect. It was only when that evil was made manifest, through the willful choice of sentient beings, did corruption and imperfection enter in.
 
Feb 14, 2011
1,783
4
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#16
Evil is a concept. Concepts are created in the minds of rational, intelligent beings. The concept of evil may have existed in the mind of God prior to the creation, however the reality of evil, i.e. evil incarnate did not.

In order for evil to become a reality, required a created world, with rational, intelligent beings, who had the free will to choose. When the angels chose to rebel against God, this concept became a reality with real effects on a real world.
yes,yes i kind of agree with that,thank you.
 
E

endofallfears

Guest
#17
The fact that the concept of evil was present in the created world did not make it imperfect. It was only when that evil was made manifest, through the willful choice of sentient beings, did corruption and imperfection enter in.
Perhaps we have to address the definition of "perfect".

First, if God cannot create anything equal to, or greater than himself, then all things created will be less than He is. If God is the measure of perfection, than anything not equal will be less (In comparison to God the Eternal One).

God's declaration of all He created as "good" is not saying the creation is perfect. Even while the creation was free of sin and corruption, it was not eternal and therefore it was destined to become corrupt.

Evil was born of this corruption, and thus the creation is unable to free itself, just as Adam, no matter how long and hard he tried, would have eventually eaten from the tree. So in the face of angels and Adam, greater than us as created beings, succumb to corruption, would not a resurrected body succumb to corruption as well?

Yes, it could, but it will not. Why? Because only something greater than the creation can maintain the creation, keeping evil born of corruption from tainting the creature, and that is our Lord Jesus Christ. Do we believe man could ever achieve a point where His grace would no longer be needed? That a glorified body makes us equal to God? One thing must be remembered. From the place of the cross and into infinity, THE BLOOD STILL FLOWS! It flows because there will never be a time when we are not upheld by his grace.
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#18
lol here's one for you:

Does the Bible talk about the creation of just this world and solar system or the whole universe?

and when was the serpent and angels created?
 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
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#19
lol here's one for you:

Does the Bible talk about the creation of just this world and solar system or the whole universe?

and when was the serpent and angels created?
Hello again Ananda,

When were the angels created? That is a good question. Well, first of all, we know that they were created, and are not eternal, (see Psalms 148: 1-5).

We know that the angels were created by the time of the events beginning in Genesis 3: 1.

We could further infer that they were created by the end of the sixth day, since God rested from His creation at that time.

And since the angels are called the sons of God, (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7), and in particular:

Job 38: 4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth ? Tell Me, if you have understanding, 5 Who set its measurements ? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? 6 "On what were its bases sunk ? Or who laid its cornerstone , 7 When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy ?

It would appear from the above that since the angels were around to shout for joy when the foundation of the earth was laid, that they must have been created before that event.

What do you think?
 
Feb 14, 2011
1,783
4
0
#20
Hello again Ananda,

When were the angels created? That is a good question. Well, first of all, we know that they were created, and are not eternal, (see Psalms 148: 1-5).

We know that the angels were created by the time of the events beginning in Genesis 3: 1.

We could further infer that they were created by the end of the sixth day, since God rested from His creation at that time.

And since the angels are called the sons of God, (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7), and in particular:

Job 38: 4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth ? Tell Me, if you have understanding, 5 Who set its measurements ? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? 6 "On what were its bases sunk ? Or who laid its cornerstone , 7 When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy ?

It would appear from the above that since the angels were around to shout for joy when the foundation of the earth was laid, that they must have been created before that event.

What do you think?

the angels were created way before the earth was created.