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"God said, 'Let there be a vault between the waters, to separate water from water.' "
There was only the one body of water until God inserted the 'solid' vault to create two separate bodies of water, but they are the same waters. I will explain later why this scenario requires the vault be solid, then later I will point to the passage that says it is solid.
Read the creation account again and keep in mind that the ocean (the water below) is not a separate creation from the water above. They are one and the same.
It is too late for me to say more.
There was only the one body of water until God inserted the 'solid' vault to create two separate bodies of water, but they are the same waters. I will explain later why this scenario requires the vault be solid, then later I will point to the passage that says it is solid.
Read the creation account again and keep in mind that the ocean (the water below) is not a separate creation from the water above. They are one and the same.
It is too late for me to say more.
C
What I think has happened Cycel, is that you've been told this is what it teaches and have been given some information you've haven't yet thoroughly checked out. There is not even the slightest implication of this teaching.
You won't be the first that's made this point, so let's gets to it. I'll prove my assertion that the Bible teaches heaven as an upward expanse once you present your solid dome arguments.
I don't want to provide that until I've completely discussed all the evidence in Genesis that points to it. Then I will deliver the passages that confirm it. I hope no one steals my thunder. 
I am not sure what you mean by this. Can you explain further?
I am not sure what you mean by this. Can you explain further?
C
Let's just focus like a laser on this.
The vault is the hebrew word, raqiya'. Why do you believe this is a solid vault? Have you studied this word carefully? Did you know it's one of the few words in the Bible that's explicitly defined by God Himself? There really is no mystery surrounding this word at all. What are you basing your definition of it on?
The vault is the hebrew word, raqiya'. Why do you believe this is a solid vault? Have you studied this word carefully? Did you know it's one of the few words in the Bible that's explicitly defined by God Himself? There really is no mystery surrounding this word at all. What are you basing your definition of it on?
I don't understand what you think the finding of water vapor by astronomers proves.
“... the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.” (NOAB)
What is described here is a primeval ocean, a watery chaos. God brings order to the chaos. Don't start injecting into your understanding elements that are not present in the original text. Go with what’s there. That is the only way to understand what the author intended. Grabbing factual details from modern astronomy and inserting them into the creation account only distorts the original meaning.
What exists in the account is an ill-defined primeval ocean that is hanging in emptiness. Note that this ocean has a solid bottom in its depths.
And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so. God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.
Note that the waters above the dome are identical to the waters under the dome. The waters under the dome on the third day are gathered together so that dry land can appear. In other words that land already existed, but it was submerged.
And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas.
Calminian, you will notice that God simply gave a name to the waters he gathered together, when he expose the land that had been submerged. He did not create them.
Picture the dome of the sky sitting in the midst of the waters. An ocean exists both above and below it. And given that the dome was placed in the midst of the waters I am imagining there is about as much water above the sky as below. This is key. The dome, which God named the sky, touches the waters above it and below it. Or, if we want to incorporate modern science then we might imagine God lowered the dome into the waters with air trapped inside, and the act of lowering the dome exposed dry land when it reached the bottom of the waters.
In any case, note that with the weight of the waters above the dome it must be solid to hold back the waters once the water beneath the dome has been gathered to expose dry land. The ocean is blue. Is the sky blue because the waters above it are also blue? Perhaps this is the connection the ancients drew?
The discovery that water vapor clouds exist in deep space doesn’t do anything, that I can see, to illuminate this section of the Genesis text, but I hope you are beginning to see why the dome of the sky was perceived as solid.
“... the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.” (NOAB)
What is described here is a primeval ocean, a watery chaos. God brings order to the chaos. Don't start injecting into your understanding elements that are not present in the original text. Go with what’s there. That is the only way to understand what the author intended. Grabbing factual details from modern astronomy and inserting them into the creation account only distorts the original meaning.
What exists in the account is an ill-defined primeval ocean that is hanging in emptiness. Note that this ocean has a solid bottom in its depths.
And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so. God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.
Note that the waters above the dome are identical to the waters under the dome. The waters under the dome on the third day are gathered together so that dry land can appear. In other words that land already existed, but it was submerged.
And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas.
Calminian, you will notice that God simply gave a name to the waters he gathered together, when he expose the land that had been submerged. He did not create them.
Picture the dome of the sky sitting in the midst of the waters. An ocean exists both above and below it. And given that the dome was placed in the midst of the waters I am imagining there is about as much water above the sky as below. This is key. The dome, which God named the sky, touches the waters above it and below it. Or, if we want to incorporate modern science then we might imagine God lowered the dome into the waters with air trapped inside, and the act of lowering the dome exposed dry land when it reached the bottom of the waters.
In any case, note that with the weight of the waters above the dome it must be solid to hold back the waters once the water beneath the dome has been gathered to expose dry land. The ocean is blue. Is the sky blue because the waters above it are also blue? Perhaps this is the connection the ancients drew?
The discovery that water vapor clouds exist in deep space doesn’t do anything, that I can see, to illuminate this section of the Genesis text, but I hope you are beginning to see why the dome of the sky was perceived as solid.
C
I've already commented on this but can you explain why you are calling it an ocean when Scripture does not? Scripture very clearly calls these initial waters "the waters" and very clearly calls the formation of the ocean, the seas.
Cycel it sounds to me like you're repeating arguments others are making against different arguments than I'm making. I've never once appealed to modern nomenclature or ANE nomenclature. I don't believe we should inject any ideas onto the text, but rather let the biblical authors define their own terms. The sea is defined on day 3 by God, and the raqiya' is defined on day 2 as shamayim - the heavens. raqiya' = shamayim and firmament = heaven. There is a one to one correspondence, and fortunately we have hundreds of occurrences of shamayim in scripture to draw from. If you want to know what raqiya' means, just learn what heaven means.
Case in point. Here you've arbitrarily defined the expanse as a dome, yet scripture defines the expanse as heaven (Gen. 1:8). I'm curious why you are refusing to let the author define his own terms.
Again where is this in the text? I've read this text thousands of times, and it never has once said the land was submerged. It sounds again like your trying to force ANE cosmology into the text, rather that just letting the authors speak and define their own terms. The text itself says the land (erets) was originally formless and empty, not submerged (v.2). Had the author wanted to say it was a solid formed submerged mass he could have easily done so.
But what I'm trying to do is find this description in the Bible. The expanse (raqiya') is an open space where among other things, the clouds dwell. Stars and the sun and moon are harder to gauge with the naked eye, but clouds obviously move in the expanse called heaven. Do you think the Bible writers thought clouds were embedded in a solid dome?
Again, the entire case for ascribing solid dome ideas to the biblical authors crumbles when you consider God's definition of raqiya' as heaven and the multiple instances in scripture where clouds are said to be in the heavens.
Ironically, skeptics make the same mistake old earth creationists make. Rather than letting scripture speak, they attempt to force a particular cosmology into it. Old earthers read modern scientific ideas into the text, and solid domers read ancient cosmology into it. But the error is essentially the same. Just read the text, and let it say what it says.
Cycel it sounds to me like you're repeating arguments others are making against different arguments than I'm making. I've never once appealed to modern nomenclature or ANE nomenclature. I don't believe we should inject any ideas onto the text, but rather let the biblical authors define their own terms. The sea is defined on day 3 by God, and the raqiya' is defined on day 2 as shamayim - the heavens. raqiya' = shamayim and firmament = heaven. There is a one to one correspondence, and fortunately we have hundreds of occurrences of shamayim in scripture to draw from. If you want to know what raqiya' means, just learn what heaven means.
Case in point. Here you've arbitrarily defined the expanse as a dome, yet scripture defines the expanse as heaven (Gen. 1:8). I'm curious why you are refusing to let the author define his own terms.
Again where is this in the text? I've read this text thousands of times, and it never has once said the land was submerged. It sounds again like your trying to force ANE cosmology into the text, rather that just letting the authors speak and define their own terms. The text itself says the land (erets) was originally formless and empty, not submerged (v.2). Had the author wanted to say it was a solid formed submerged mass he could have easily done so.
But what I'm trying to do is find this description in the Bible. The expanse (raqiya') is an open space where among other things, the clouds dwell. Stars and the sun and moon are harder to gauge with the naked eye, but clouds obviously move in the expanse called heaven. Do you think the Bible writers thought clouds were embedded in a solid dome?
Again, the entire case for ascribing solid dome ideas to the biblical authors crumbles when you consider God's definition of raqiya' as heaven and the multiple instances in scripture where clouds are said to be in the heavens.
Ironically, skeptics make the same mistake old earth creationists make. Rather than letting scripture speak, they attempt to force a particular cosmology into it. Old earthers read modern scientific ideas into the text, and solid domers read ancient cosmology into it. But the error is essentially the same. Just read the text, and let it say what it says.
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G
Genesis 1:
[SUP]6[/SUP] And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. [SUP]7[/SUP] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. [SUP]8[/SUP] And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. [SUP]9[/SUP] And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. [SUP]10[/SUP] And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. [SUP]11[/SUP] And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. [SUP]12[/SUP] And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. [SUP]13[/SUP] And the evening and the morning were the third day. [SUP]14[/SUP] And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: [SUP]15[/SUP] And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. [SUP]16[/SUP] And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. [SUP]17[/SUP] And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, [SUP]18[/SUP] And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. [SUP]19[/SUP] And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. [SUP]20[/SUP] And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Many paragraphs would be required to make a full explanation of the interpretation of these verses.
For now, focus on the following:
In verses 6-7, God separates 'the waters' with a 'firmament' -- water above the firmament -- water below the firmament.
In verse 8, God called the firmament Heaven.
In verse 9 ( and, explained in verse 10 ), God caused the waters under the firmament to become Seas.
In verse 20 -- notice that the open firmament of heaven is where the birds fly.
The firmament is not solid. It is not above the atmosphere. It is the atmosphere - above the earth ( "the first heaven" ). It separates water above from water below.
"Think on this a while..."
[SUP]6[/SUP] And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. [SUP]7[/SUP] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. [SUP]8[/SUP] And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. [SUP]9[/SUP] And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. [SUP]10[/SUP] And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. [SUP]11[/SUP] And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. [SUP]12[/SUP] And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. [SUP]13[/SUP] And the evening and the morning were the third day. [SUP]14[/SUP] And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: [SUP]15[/SUP] And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. [SUP]16[/SUP] And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. [SUP]17[/SUP] And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, [SUP]18[/SUP] And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. [SUP]19[/SUP] And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. [SUP]20[/SUP] And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Many paragraphs would be required to make a full explanation of the interpretation of these verses.
For now, focus on the following:
In verses 6-7, God separates 'the waters' with a 'firmament' -- water above the firmament -- water below the firmament.
In verse 8, God called the firmament Heaven.
In verse 9 ( and, explained in verse 10 ), God caused the waters under the firmament to become Seas.
In verse 20 -- notice that the open firmament of heaven is where the birds fly.
The firmament is not solid. It is not above the atmosphere. It is the atmosphere - above the earth ( "the first heaven" ). It separates water above from water below.
"Think on this a while..."
Genesis 1:
[SUP]6[/SUP] And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. [SUP]7[/SUP] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. [SUP]8[/SUP] And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. [SUP]9[/SUP] And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. [SUP]10[/SUP] And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. [SUP]11[/SUP] And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. [SUP]12[/SUP] And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. [SUP]13[/SUP] And the evening and the morning were the third day. [SUP]14[/SUP] And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: [SUP]15[/SUP] And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. [SUP]16[/SUP] And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. [SUP]17[/SUP] And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, [SUP]18[/SUP] And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. [SUP]19[/SUP] And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. [SUP]20[/SUP] And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Many paragraphs would be required to make a full explanation of the interpretation of these verses.
For now, focus on the following:
In verses 6-7, God separates 'the waters' with a 'firmament' -- water above the firmament -- water below the firmament.
In verse 8, God called the firmament Heaven.
In verse 9 ( and, explained in verse 10 ), God caused the waters under the firmament to become Seas.
In verse 20 -- notice that the open firmament of heaven is where the birds fly.
The firmament is not solid. It is not above the atmosphere. It is the atmosphere - above the earth ( "the first heaven" ). It separates water above from water below.
"Think on this a while..."
[SUP]6[/SUP] And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. [SUP]7[/SUP] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. [SUP]8[/SUP] And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. [SUP]9[/SUP] And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. [SUP]10[/SUP] And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. [SUP]11[/SUP] And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. [SUP]12[/SUP] And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. [SUP]13[/SUP] And the evening and the morning were the third day. [SUP]14[/SUP] And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: [SUP]15[/SUP] And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. [SUP]16[/SUP] And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. [SUP]17[/SUP] And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, [SUP]18[/SUP] And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. [SUP]19[/SUP] And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. [SUP]20[/SUP] And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Many paragraphs would be required to make a full explanation of the interpretation of these verses.
For now, focus on the following:
In verses 6-7, God separates 'the waters' with a 'firmament' -- water above the firmament -- water below the firmament.
In verse 8, God called the firmament Heaven.
In verse 9 ( and, explained in verse 10 ), God caused the waters under the firmament to become Seas.
In verse 20 -- notice that the open firmament of heaven is where the birds fly.
The firmament is not solid. It is not above the atmosphere. It is the atmosphere - above the earth ( "the first heaven" ). It separates water above from water below.
"Think on this a while..."
G
I disagree. It does not take nearly the same effort to interpret and understand in the mind as it does to write it out in sentences and paragraphs in a way that will convey the "fullness" of it to others who are reading it.
By making the statement that I did, I meant only to indicate that I did not have the time to write out a "full explanation" for the entire passage ( "perhaps more later" ) - but, that - I wanted to draw particular attention to what was said in the verses I chose...
There is nothing wrong with the verses.
If anything is lacking, it is my inability to write sufficiently well in a short period of time. I do not consider myself "blessed" with the writing skills such that ideas can be expressed quickly in detail -- "roll off the pen" ( or, the fingers into the keyboard ), as it were...
I have to "work at it a bit" to come up with wording that will convey to others what I am trying to get across.
By making the statement that I did, I meant only to indicate that I did not have the time to write out a "full explanation" for the entire passage ( "perhaps more later" ) - but, that - I wanted to draw particular attention to what was said in the verses I chose...
There is nothing wrong with the verses.
If anything is lacking, it is my inability to write sufficiently well in a short period of time. I do not consider myself "blessed" with the writing skills such that ideas can be expressed quickly in detail -- "roll off the pen" ( or, the fingers into the keyboard ), as it were...
I have to "work at it a bit" to come up with wording that will convey to others what I am trying to get across.
G
I disagree. It does not take nearly the same effort to interpret and understand in the mind as it does to write it out in sentences and paragraphs in a way that will convey the "fullness" of it to others who are reading it.
By making the statement that I did, I meant only to indicate that I did not have the time to write out a "full explanation" for the entire passage ( "perhaps more later" ) - but, that - I wanted to draw particular attention to what was said in the verses I chose...
There is nothing wrong with the verses.
If anything is lacking, it is my inability to write sufficiently well in a short period of time. I do not consider myself "blessed" with the writing skills such that ideas can be expressed quickly in detail -- "roll off the pen" ( or, the fingers into the keyboard ), as it were...
I have to "work at it a bit" to come up with wording that will convey to others what I am trying to get across.
By making the statement that I did, I meant only to indicate that I did not have the time to write out a "full explanation" for the entire passage ( "perhaps more later" ) - but, that - I wanted to draw particular attention to what was said in the verses I chose...
There is nothing wrong with the verses.
If anything is lacking, it is my inability to write sufficiently well in a short period of time. I do not consider myself "blessed" with the writing skills such that ideas can be expressed quickly in detail -- "roll off the pen" ( or, the fingers into the keyboard ), as it were...
I have to "work at it a bit" to come up with wording that will convey to others what I am trying to get across.
Both the depth and the elegance of the scriptures are truly amazing.
EDIT: And I am by no means "eloquent of speech" - or pen - or keyboard.
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C
In verses 6-7, God separates 'the waters' with a 'firmament' -- water above the firmament -- water below the firmament.
In verse 8, God called the firmament Heaven.
In verse 9 ( and, explained in verse 10 ), God caused the waters under the firmament to become Seas.
In verse 20 -- notice that the open firmament of heaven is where the birds fly.
The firmament is not solid. It is not above the atmosphere. It is the atmosphere - above the earth ( "the first heaven" ). It separates water above from water below.
"Think on this a while..."
In verse 8, God called the firmament Heaven.
In verse 9 ( and, explained in verse 10 ), God caused the waters under the firmament to become Seas.
In verse 20 -- notice that the open firmament of heaven is where the birds fly.
The firmament is not solid. It is not above the atmosphere. It is the atmosphere - above the earth ( "the first heaven" ). It separates water above from water below.
"Think on this a while..."
I would also add the heavens are not only the atmosphere, but all that is above, even the space that contains the sun moon and stars. And unlike their opponents in various ANE cultures, the biblical writers believed an open expanse was above us. More evidence the Bible should be trusted.
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G
This is the part that requires the most explanation, and is largely to what I was referring to in the following statements:
I believe that the word 'firmament' in Genesis 1 is limited to the "1st heaven" - the earth's atmosphere. The sun, moon, stars, etc. are physically present in the "2nd heaven" - although, they are "seen" from earth as if in the 1st heaven. The passage was written from this vantage point, ensuring the validity of the 'canopy' of water that was once above the earth - which I believe is indicated in the passage.
I believe that the word 'firmament' in Genesis 1 is limited to the "1st heaven" - the earth's atmosphere. The sun, moon, stars, etc. are physically present in the "2nd heaven" - although, they are "seen" from earth as if in the 1st heaven. The passage was written from this vantage point, ensuring the validity of the 'canopy' of water that was once above the earth - which I believe is indicated in the passage.
C
This is the part I think where solid domers like Lamoureux and Seely are going to corner you. Firmament is described as the heavens. If there are 3 levels of heaven, there are 3 levels of expanse, but scripture never describes the cloud and bird level of the firmament as the 1st heaven. It's popular idea, but it's man's idea. There's nothing in scripture to categorize the levels of heaven. We know there are 3 levels, but don't know how they're broken up. Atmosphere, Cosmos, Spiritual is just a thought, but I would challenge you to give one example from scripture to support it.
One model that's consistent with the tabernacle, is that the entire cosmos is the 1st heaven, and the 2nd and 3rd heaven are somewhere within it (actual physical places). That's based on the layout of the tabernacle, with the outer courtyard surrounding the 2 inner rooms. But that's also speculation.
But if you really believe the atmosphere is the first heaven, I challenge you to support it. The specific challenge is this: show any textual evidence that the clouds and birds dwell in the first heaven and the sun moon and stars in the 2nd. I would also challenge you to defend the idea of a spiritual heaven—a non physical realm where the angels and God dwell. I don't think scripture ever describes this either.
Sometimes these challenges from skeptics can be valuable if they drive us back to the text.
One model that's consistent with the tabernacle, is that the entire cosmos is the 1st heaven, and the 2nd and 3rd heaven are somewhere within it (actual physical places). That's based on the layout of the tabernacle, with the outer courtyard surrounding the 2 inner rooms. But that's also speculation.
But if you really believe the atmosphere is the first heaven, I challenge you to support it. The specific challenge is this: show any textual evidence that the clouds and birds dwell in the first heaven and the sun moon and stars in the 2nd. I would also challenge you to defend the idea of a spiritual heaven—a non physical realm where the angels and God dwell. I don't think scripture ever describes this either.
Sometimes these challenges from skeptics can be valuable if they drive us back to the text.
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C
Just a slight bump in case Cycel wants to respond, but also wanted to agree with this statement, and further point out, that if we're going to read the text in a straightforward way, we have to conclude it is not correct to call the initial waters of creation the ocean. Scripture very clearly says that the ocean was made from these waters. Moses agrees and says the sky land and sea and all in them were made in six days (Ex. 20:11). And Peter agrees and says the land itself was also made from these initial waters.
2Pet. 3:5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.
The idea here is not a pre-existing ocean, but rather a miraculous forming of the land and sea from unformed waters on day 1. That's what the text says, at least.
2Pet. 3:5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.
The idea here is not a pre-existing ocean, but rather a miraculous forming of the land and sea from unformed waters on day 1. That's what the text says, at least.
