Does water baptism save?

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starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
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#1
Faith alone in Jesus Christ saves. Acts 16:31 “And they said, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house".

Water baptism is a work and the bible says that we are not saved by works but by faith. Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast".
Romans 3:28 “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law".

1 Peter 3:21 “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:” Baptism does not put away the filth flesh-it does not eliminate sin but it is for a good conscience.

Galatians 3:26-27 “You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ”. According to Galatians 3:27 baptism into Christ means the removal of the old sinful self and putting on Christ. It is not by the work of man but by God.

Water baptism is done in obedience to God after salvation and reconcilation with God. It identifies us with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. It is an outward expression of inward regeneration. This refutes the false doctrine of baptismal regeneration and infant baptism.
 
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Young_Gideon

Guest
#2
Jesus saves.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#3
Water baptism is for someone who has already been saved.
 
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suaso

Guest
#4
What's the point of Baptism if someone has been saved? If Baptism itself has no saving power, what's it for?
 
May 4, 2009
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#5
Only Jesus can save you. Water baptism is only a declaration of your faith to other people.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#6
(from the article, Holy Tradition, The Road that leads Home, by the Reverend Dorraine S. Snogren, with an Introduction by Bishop Ephraim)

The Meaning of Baptism

All the extant writings of antiquity point to one undeniable fact, and that is that the early Church was a sacramental Church both in theology and practice. Alexander Schmemann put it well. He said: "This double mystery—rebirth from water and the Spirit and the breaking of bread—was not simply a ceremonial service but the source, the content, the very heart of primitive Christianity." [31]
The Scriptures make many references to Baptism and in such a manner that it places Baptism as an indispensable part of one’s salvation experience.


—Jesus’ description of the new birth as a birth by water and the Spirit was always understood by the early Church as the water of holy Baptism (John 3:5).


—Jesus’ commissioning His disciples to go into all the world and make disciples was to be realized first by baptizing them (Matt. 28:19).


—Peter, on the day of Pentecost, directed his congregation that the way out of their sin and into the Spirit-filled life was to "repent and be baptized" (Acts 2:38).


—Ananias knew the importance of Baptism as evidenced in his exhorting the new convert Saul: "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His Name" (Acts 22:16).


—Paul’s exhortation to the Romans was for them not to forget what happened at their Baptism:
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were buried therefore with Him by Baptism into death... . We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin (Rom. 6:3, 4a, 6).
And on and on we could go with Scriptural references (some other references are I Cor. 6:11; 10:2; 12:13; Titus 3:5; I Pet. 3:21; Heb. 10:32.) However, there is one additional reference that is very suggestive. I refer to Mark 16:16: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Even though those several verses are omitted in some of the ancient texts, it is nevertheless extremely important because it gives us a keyhole peek into how the early Church regarded Baptism.


It is obvious from these references that Baptism was not like a piece of costume jewelry that was just for show. It was very critical to their understanding and experience of salvation. Baptism was much more than a public testimony. It represented not only the action of man but also the action of God. Most certainly this understanding is found everywhere in the early writings. There is an abundance of testimony.


I think of the writings of Saint Justin the Martyr, born at the end of the first century. In his First Apology, a defense of the Christian faith and practice, he made reference to the threefold immersion in the Name of the Trinity, that there were already established specific instructions for the candidates followed by prayer and fasting for the entire church. He speaks of Baptism as a "washing" and "illumination." And bear in mind that this was written the first generation after the Apostles. Let’s let Justin speak for himself:
I shall now explain our method of dedicating ourselves to God after we have been created anew through Christ... . All who accept and believe as true the things taught and said by us, and who undertake to have the power to live accordingly, are taught to pray and entreat God, fasting, for the forgiveness of their former sins, while we join in their prayer and fasting. Then we bring them to a place where there is water, where they are regenerated in the same way as we were: for they then make their ablution in the water in the Name of God the Father and Lord of all, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit. [32]
Later on he continues, saying:
And for this [rite] we have learned from the Apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the Name of God the Father.
He then speaks again of the Trinitarian invocation and then says, "And this washing is called illumination because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. . . . he who is illuminated is washed." [33]


I was so moved when I first read Justin’s statement, "And for this [rite] we have learned from the Apostles . . ." That statement alone gives tremendous authority to all he is saying. Awesome indeed!
A document known as The Shepherd of Hermas was written about A.D. 100, about ten years after the repose of the Apostle John. The Shepherd writes:
They had need to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the Kingdom of God, except by putting away the mortality of their former life. These also, then, who have fallen asleep, received the seal of the Son of God, and entered into the Kingdom of God. For, he said, before a man bears the Name of the Son of God, he is dead. But when he receives the seal, he puts mortality aside and again receives life. The seal, therefore, is the water. They go down into the water dead, and come out of it alive. [34]
Yes, the early Church believed in Baptism as an indispensable part of the salvation experience. As Saint John Chrysostom so aptly noted, others fish by pulling fish out of the water, whereas we Christians fish by throwing the fish into the water. [35]


One cannot help observing that the form of Baptism was also well established in the Church’s Tradition. Alexander Schmemann in his delightful book Of Water And The Spirit reminds us that in the early Church there was no dichotomy between form and substance in Baptism. For the early Church the form of Baptism was the very means by which the essence was manifested, communicated, and fulfilled. He put it graphically when he wrote:
And the early Church, before she explains if she explains them at all—the "why," the "what," and the "how" of this baptismal death and resurrection, simply knew that to follow Christ one must, at first, die and rise again with Him and in Him; that Christian life truly begins with an event in which, as in all genuine events, the very distinction between "form" and "essence" is but an irrelevant abstraction. In Baptism—because it is an event—the form and essence, the "doing" and the "happening," the sign and its meaning coincide, for the purpose of one is precisely to be the other, both to reveal and to fulfill it. Baptism is what it represents because what it represents—death and resurrection— is true... . Such is the central, overwhelming, and all-embracing experience of the early Church, an experience so self-evident, so direct, that at first she did not even "explain" it but saw it rather as the source and the condition of all explanations, all theologies. [36]
I find it difficult if not impossible to disregard the ancient testimonies. I find it equally hard to imagine that the New Testament’s strong and elevated emphasis on Baptism could have arisen if it were understood simply as a public testimony, as representing only the action of man.


To read the entire article click HERE.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#7
To learn about infant baptism, read the ENTIRE article below.


Infant Baptism
Jordan Bajis



"Should I be baptized again" Many renewed Orthodox Christians have asked themselves and others whether they should be baptized as adults. I readily understand why this question is asked, for I myself must admit that I did not always feel comfortable about the Orthodox Church baptizing infants. I asked myself several other questions as well: "How can an infant 'believe and be baptized'?" "Where in Scripture does it show an infant being baptized?" "Is not the baptizing of infants the reason why the contemporary Orthodox Church has a need for renewal and re-evangelization?"
These questions were so significant to me that I refused to actively support or encourage the practice of infant baptism until I was able to get some satisfactory answers. On one occasion I even rejected the honor of being the best man at a close friend's wedding unless he was willing to absolve me of the accompanying responsibility of being the baptismal sponsor for his first child. Only after he agreed to my request did I consent to become his best man.

Knowing that as a committed Christian I could not refrain indefinitely from making a decision on this matter, I embarked on an intensive study of Scripture and early Christian history. I resolved that I would not finish my study until I had settled the issue in my mind and in my heart. Surprisingly, the area was much more complex than I first envisioned it to be. I must admit at the outset it looked as though the argument for infant baptism was about as valid as the theory that the earth was cigar-shaped. However, I uncovered many facts that are usually unknown to the common layman and which I think will prove helpful for those who are now in a doctrinal dilemma similar to the one I was in previously. I can now say, after having looked into the arguments of some of the most respected scholars on this subject, that there is a very strong case for the baptism of infants of Christian parents.

Before I begin to share some of the things I discovered, I think it is important to note that, although I have dedicated months to the thorough study of this subject, I do not pretend to be a theologian, professor of Church history, or Greek scholar. I am not an expert on the subject; I am a student of the subject. It is also important to note, however, that the evidences and arguments I produce here are, in the main, not my own but rather a synthesis of research and conclusions distilled from several noteworthy scholars. It is not my purpose to be overly technical, to illustrate the minute peculiarity of each counter-argument's counter-argument, or to take the reader back to study the original documents in order to discuss grammatical controversies surrounding the texts. It is not that I consider these types of investigations unimportant, but I simply restrained myself from doing this because I do not think it is very profitable for the average layman. The scholars are much better qualified than I to define and explain these more exacting details, in any case.

Given this preface, let me get to the point of the article. How is it that I can now recognize infant baptism as a valid practice whereas before I was highly distrustful of it? I will record a number of reasons for this below in as straightforward and direct a way as I know. Some facts will require a bit of explanation, but many will consist of only a sentence or two. At the close of the list, I will offer some concluding thoughts and insights about infant baptism. I have categorized the evidence supporting the practice of infant baptism into three main sections: Scripture, History, and the Fathers of the Early Church. I recognize that each argument may not be able to stand on its own, but taken together they present a conclusive picture.


CLICK HERE FOR THE ARTICLE'S CONTINUATION...
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#8
I think yes you should be baptised again if baptised as an infant. For most people baptised as infants they don't remember it and it means nothing to them. Baptism does save in that it is
but the answer of a good conscience toward God (1 Peter 3).

Baptism administered with true repentance - saves.

Don't forget that baptism is not (or should not) be merely someone taking a bath - but someone being prayed over, repenting and confessing their sins. Does baptism then save? Absolutely. It's only because people think it is just taking a bath or being splashed with water that they count it as nothing important to salvation.
 
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stillearning

Guest
#9
The LAST MESSAGE preached by Jesus was a COMMAND to baptize all nations. MATTHEW 28:19
The FIRST MESSAGE preached by the apostles resulted in a command for EVERYONE to be baptized. ACTS 2:38 BAPTISM IS IMPORTANT AND SHOULD BE ADMINISTERED ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE

MATT. 28:19 - "Teach all nations, baptizing them" - Teaching or preaching must precede baptism. See Acts 2:41

ACTS 8:36,37 - Eunuch. "What doth hinder me to be baptized?" Phillip, "If Thou believest with all thine heart." Believing is a prerequisite of baptism. See, Mark 16:16. ACTS 2:38 - "Repent and be baptized everyone of you." Repentance must precede Baptism. See, Luke 24:47.

[SIZE=+1]1. THE BIBLE SAYS SO![/SIZE]
JOHN 3:5 - "Except a man be born of the water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God." Most Bible commentaries agree that water here refers to baptism.
MARK 16:16 - "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." Notice how Jesus places baptism in conjunction with salvation. 1 Peter. 3:21 - "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us." Also see Acts 10:6 and 48.
[SIZE=+1]2. IT REMITS SIN[/SIZE]
HEBREWS 9:22 - The application of the blood of Christ is necessary to remit sin. What then is the Biblical way to receive remission of sin? The answer to this question will also be the only way to get the Saviour's blood applied.

LUKE 24:47 - "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name...." (Jesus) ACTS 2:38 - "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..." The blood of Jesus is applied only through water baptism in the name of Jesus. Also see 1 John 5:8 and Acts 22:16
[SIZE=+1]3. BAPTIZED INTO CHURCH[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Every New Testament church was formed by those whom were baptized into the faith after believing and repenting. Gal 3:27 and 1 Cor 12:13[/SIZE]

  1. CHURCH AT JERUSALEM - 3000 added by baptism after receiving the word. Acts 2:41
    [*]CHURCH AT SAMARIA - Believed and were baptized, men & women. Acts - :12-16
    [*]CHURCH AT CAESAREA - Peter commanded them to be baptized. Acts 10:48
    [*]CHURCH AT PHILIPPI - Lydia & the Phillipian jailer baptized Acts 16:14-33
    [*]CHURCH AT CORINTH - Paul preached. They believed and were baptized. Acts 18:8
    [*]CHURCH AT EPHESUS - Paul rebaptizes those improperly baptized. Acts 19:1-6
    [*]CHURCH AT GALATIA - Believed Paul and baptized into Christ. Gal 3:27
    [*]CHURCH AT COLOSSE - They were buried with Christ in baptism. Col 2:12
    [*]CHURCH AT ROME - They died to sin, then buried in baptism. Romans 6:1-4
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#10
[SIZE=+1]3. BAPTIZED INTO CHURCH[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Every New Testament church was formed by those whom were baptized into the faith after believing and repenting. Gal 3:27 and 1 Cor 12:13[/SIZE]



Those same believers baptized their babies. *shrug
 

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
58
48
#11
What's the point of Baptism if someone has been saved? If Baptism itself has no saving power, what's it for?
Baptism is essential for those that have repented. What I mean is that we do not earn salvation by being baptized. Faith in God + baptism = salvation. As MahogonySnail said, baptism is not simply taking a bath, also if a sinner gets baptized they will just get wet but not saved.
 
I

imepaula

Guest
#12
Faith alone in Jesus Christ saves. Acts 16:31 “And they said, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house".

Water baptism is a work and the bible says that we are not saved by works but by faith. Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast".
Romans 3:28 “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law".

1 Peter 3:21 “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:” Baptism does not put away the filth flesh-it does not eliminate sin but it is for a good conscience.

Galatians 3:26-27 “You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ”. According to Galatians 3:27 baptism into Christ means the removal of the old sinful self and putting on Christ. It is not by the work of man but by God.

Water baptism is done in obedience to God after salvation and reconcilation with God. It identifies us with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. It is an outward expression of inward regeneration. This refutes the false doctrine of baptismal regeneration and infant baptism.


No Jesus got baptized and he sure didn't need saving
 
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imepaula

Guest
#13
What's the point of Baptism if someone has been saved? If Baptism itself has no saving power, what's it for?
An action that tells people you are serious about getting baptized.
random fact: Jewish people don't disown their kids or relatives who get saved til they get baptized.
 
G

Groundhog

Guest
#14
Obviously there's no scriptural precedent or command for infant baptism. But for baptism of believers, the New Testament makes some pretty bold statements.

Scriptures like the following seem indicate that baptism is an essential part of salvation. It actually says that baptism has saved them.

1 Peter 3:
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him
 

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
58
48
#15
No Jesus got baptized and he sure didn't need saving
Jesus did not need baptism but He did it in submission to God the Father and to fulfill all righteousness.
Matthew 3:14-15 "But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him."
He also offered an example for us. Matthew 28:19
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#16
What's the point of Baptism if someone has been saved? If Baptism itself has no saving power, what's it for?
obedience to show the World or at least those around us that we have called upon the Name of the Lord, that we confess Him as Lord . and want to be obedient to our new Lord, and be baptized, But I believe that as Jesus preached, John the Baptist preached and paul preached that the water baptism changed to the spirit Baptism.


Ac 19:1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,Ac 19:2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.Ac 19:3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.Ac 19:4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.Ac 19:5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.Ac 19:6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.Ac 19:7And all the men were about twelve.
 
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stillearning

Guest
#17
[SIZE=+1]3. BAPTIZED INTO CHURCH[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Every New Testament church was formed by those whom were baptized into the faith after believing and repenting. Gal 3:27 and 1 Cor 12:13[/SIZE]


Those same believers baptized their babies. *shrug
How do you know they did were you there and where is it written at? Prove all things.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#18
How do you know they did were you there and where is it written at? Prove all things.

Here's a good starting point. CLICKEROO


For me, personally, I was sold on it once I realized that the first Christians were early Jews. If you study Judaism during that period there's a lot of continuity. Plus if you look at early early records, you'll see that some people said that they've been "saved" for as long as they are old. So, if they were 89 years old and they said they've been saved for 89 years, then this tells you a little something. Plus, there's not really any record against infant baptism. It was pretty much standard practice all the way up until a hundred years or so AFTER the reformation. However, we do have those pesky Anabaptists and maybe the Waldenesians. But I would like to see some kind of record of the Waldenesian's refusing infant baptism that pre-dates the eleventh century. I'd also like to see the oldest record of the Anabaptists refusing to baptize their little ones.

Take all of this stuff into account, measure it against scripture to see if it holds up and there's a lot more evidence FOR infant baptism than there is against it. The only thing standing against infant baptism are certain groups of protestants that interpret certain passages a certain way and then teach the interpretation as fact and start the tradition of not baptizing infants.
 
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suaso

Guest
#19
Nice link Ryan, I like reading up on how the Orthodox explain things.

Good prep for my trip downtown to the Holy Trinity Orthodox Cathedral's Greek Festival. Iconography and all the lamb I can eat in one place? Oh yes.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#20
Nice link Ryan, I like reading up on how the Orthodox explain things.

Good prep for my trip downtown to the Holy Trinity Orthodox Cathedral's Greek Festival. Iconography and all the lamb I can eat in one place? Oh yes.
After the Liturgy we have coffee hour and there's often lots of different foods to choose from. We have what we call the "Greek" table at our Church. Kind of funny but I LOVE eating whatever it is they make. Don't even know what it is half the time but if it's Greek it's as good as eaten.





 
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