Dr. Michael Brown and the Sabbath Debate

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sparkman

Guest
#1
As a former Sabbathkeeper, I listen to some debates or discussions about the topic of "boundary marker" commandments from the Mosaic Covenant.

"Boundary marker" commandments are those commandments that were meant to keep ancient Israel distinct from the Gentile nations. They are not objective moral commandments. I would include the Sabbath, festivals, clean/unclean meat laws, physical circumcision, and dress prohibitions within those commandments. There was also an aspect that they were shadows or types of spiritual realities. For instance, the Sabbath was a type of the spiritual rest that Christians have through placing their faith in Jesus Christ...a rest from dead works and trying to justify yourself before God on the basis of them (Matthew 11:28-30, Colossians 2:16-17, Hebrews 4:9-10).

I have no issue with those who want to observe Sabbath, though, if they have no issue with those Christians who have church meetings on Sunday in honor of the resurrection. Paul is plain that this sort of tolerance should be part of the church in Romans 14. It's rebels which claim Sunday observers are under the mark of the Beast or are being disobedient to God that ruffle my feathers. And, early Christianity ws unfair to ethnic Jews in the past, who wanted to maintain cultural elements of their heritage while continuing to be faithful followers of Jesus Christ. I've been studying this in a book called Introduction to Messianic Judaism.

Dr. Michael Brown, who is a Messianic Jew himself, answered questions from callers on the topic of the Sabbath in a recent broadcast. His position, like that of many Messianic Jews, is that he observes these boundary marker commandments (he may not use that term by the way..it's my term adopted from other scholoars), but does not claim that others, Gentile or Jew, need to observe them. A lot of the answers he gives in this audio are the same as the explanations I would give as an ex-Sabbathkeeper and I will be listening to more of his audios on these topics.

I realize he's not well liked amongst some in the Hebrew Roots Movement because he dispels some of their bad notions, including claiming that the Hebrew pictographic alphabet provides extra insight into Scripture. The HRM assertions are similar to the Bible code stuff, where the adherents claim that secret messages are encoded in Scripture, and that if you only had the key (in their case, the Hebrew pictographic alphabet), you would understand them. Dr. Michael Brown possesses a PhD in Semitic Languages (Hebrew) from a decent university, so his word trumps theirs, in my opinion, plus I am not much for claiming that God intentionally tries to hide meaning from Christians. I think the text speaks plainly for itself.

He's also dispelled the notion of some Hebrew Roots Movement people , which claim the New Testament or parts of it were written originally in Hebrew. He notes that there is NO manuscript evidence to support this claim. Even if there was manuscript evidence, it would be meaningless because the New Testament writings were translated into MANY languages. That's part of the beauty of the Greek language. It was the universal trade language at the time, and someone in just about every nation understood it. So, they could take the writings and translate them into their own language for the benefit of all. This enabled the writings to be disseminated over a wide area quickly.

I'm also not real fond of the assertions of some within this group that we, as Western thinking Christians, are inferior because we don't understand the Hebrew mindset. About every seminary trains students in some level of original language, AND about the underlying culture and customs of the writers, so the claims of the Hebrew Roots Movement on this issue are overstated, and reflect a strong false pride...reminds me of the Armstrongites I hung out with as a young Christian.

Anyways, I love Dr. Brown's soundness on this topic. He brings a voice of sanity into the Messianic Jew camp. My understanding is that Jews for Jesus as a whole are balanced when it comes to these issues.

Here's the link to the audio:

The Sabbath Debate Continues : Line of Fire

I enjoyed listening to it, and if you are interested in the topic, you might enjoy it as well.

The previous day's broadcast is related and you might want to listen to it first, although it is more specifically about SDAs:

What Do Seventh Day Adventists Believe? : Line of Fire

I do not agree with Dr. Michael Brown on his charismatic positions, but he is very good on topics like Messianic Judaism, Sabbath, festivals, clean and unclean meat laws and the Torah. His theology is quite a bit different than mine on other topics such as the Brownsville revival, but I respect him as a brother in Christ and agree with his teachings on the topic of the boundary marker commandments.
 
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mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#2
Sabbath-keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel that is not applicable to Christians under the New Covenant. Even when Christians set out to worship on the Sabbath, they aren’t truly "keeping the Sabbath." To "keep the Sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament would involve compliance with stringent regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

If Sabbath-day observances are still required, so would the burnt offerings which went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13). These were commanded by God to the sons of Israel. If the seventh-day Sabbath is still in affect, then why do not the Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can a person say he keeps a certain law when he keeps only part of it?

If the Sabbath-day laws were still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people. Who is going to enforce that? The Jewish synagogue? The Christian Church? The Seventh-day Adventist church? Or the State? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did, no Sabbatarian can live consistently under the Mosaic regulations.

St. Paul said in Galatians 4:9-11: "...You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain."

In Romans 14:1-23, the Apostle Paul says: "... One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind...(NASB)." In other words, for the Christian, the Apostle is saying that no day is to be regarded holier than another. Although the Torah was read every Saturday in the synagogues, the early Gentile Christians were never commanded to be circumcised, or to rest on Saturday as the Jews were (Acts 15:1-21).

In Colossians 2:16-17, the Apostle Paul also said 16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

The early Christians began to worship God on Sunday (the Lord's Day), because the first day of the week became associated with Christ's resurrection (Matthew 28:1-10; Luke 24:1; John 20:1; Revelation 1:10). We see from Acts 20:7 and I Corinthians 16:1-3 that the early Church gathered together on the first day of every week in order to "break bread," and also to take up a "collection for the saints." Nowhere in the New Testament is the Church commanded to gather together to worship on the Jewish seventh-day Sabbath.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#3
Here's another associated audio on clean and unclean meats:

Does It Matter to God If Christians Keep the Dietary Laws? : Line of Fire

Here's another one on whether Gentiles need to observe the Torah:

https://askdrbrown.org/portfolio/line-of-fire-does-god-require-all-believers-to-observe-the-torah/

And a similar one:

Believers and the Law of Moses : Line of Fire

Some more on the Sabbath:

Dr. Brown Debates a 7th-Day Adventist on the Sabbath | Ask Dr. Brown

Are Christians required to observe the seventh day Sabbath? | Ask Dr. Brown

Here is an audio on the Hebrew pictographic alphabet issue:

2014 August : Line of Fire

Starting to discuss the issue of the Hebrew pictographic alphabet at 30:00 mark or so.
 
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tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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#4
I believe that both days were kept at least up until the time of Constantine. Sunday up until then was not a replacement for the Sabbath but a seperate day to commemorate Christs Resurrection. Constantine was not a Christian as we understand the
meaning. He worshiped Mithrus the Sun God. Tradition has it that he saw the sign of the cross near the Sun in a vision. From this he believed that Christ was the incarnation of Mithrus. That is why he chose Sunday, the day of the venerable Sun to be a public holiday. It was more connected with his belief in Mithrus than anything else that made him decide this. His Son, Constantius went further by banning all Pagan religions and handing over Temples and land to the church. The down side of this was that Pagan beliefs were incorporated into the Church and Christianized.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#5
I believe that both days were kept at least up until the time of Constantine. Sunday up until then was not a replacement for the Sabbath but a seperate day to commemorate Christs Resurrection.
SDA's accuse the Roman Catholic church of changing the Sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday. I don't view Sunday as a replacement day for the Jewish Saturday Sabbath but as a separate day to commemorate Christ's Resurrection.

Constantine was not a Christian as we understand the meaning. He worshiped Mithrus the Sun God. Tradition has it that he saw the sign of the cross near the Sun in a vision. From this he believed that Christ was the incarnation of Mithrus. That is why he chose Sunday, the day of the venerable Sun to be a public holiday. It was more connected with his belief in Mithrus than anything else that made him decide this. His Son, Constantius went further by banning all Pagan religions and handing over Temples and land to the church. The down side of this was that Pagan beliefs were incorporated into the Church and Christianized.
Speaking of Pagan belief being incorporated into the Church:

[video=youtube;ZD_PCnRulrc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD_PCnRulrc[/video]
 
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sparkman

Guest
#6
I believe that both days were kept at least up until the time of Constantine. Sunday up until then was not a replacement for the Sabbath but a seperate day to commemorate Christs Resurrection. Constantine was not a Christian as we understand the
meaning. He worshiped Mithrus the Sun God. Tradition has it that he saw the sign of the cross near the Sun in a vision. From this he believed that Christ was the incarnation of Mithrus. That is why he chose Sunday, the day of the venerable Sun to be a public holiday. It was more connected with his belief in Mithrus than anything else that made him decide this. His Son, Constantius went further by banning all Pagan religions and handing over Temples and land to the church. The down side of this was that Pagan beliefs were incorporated into the Church and Christianized.
SDA historian Samuele Bacchiocchi researched the history regarding Sabbath observance, and virtually no Christians were observing the Sabbath by AD140 by his own admission. He has vehemently defended the validity of the Sabbath, but admits his own church was wrong on claiming the pope changed church meetings and the day of rest to Sunday.

Constantine did mandate a rest on Sunday the year before the Council of Nicea. This rest did not prohibit Sabbath observers from observing the Sabbath, though.

At a separate church council in AD363, in Laodicea, Judaizing was anathematized, but I suspect it was due to Judaizers where were trying to force all Christians to observe the Sabbath, and perhaps were trying to enforce other elements of the Mosaic Covenant including physical circumcision. Either way, I think they made a mistake in regards to that, as it is not necessary to force Jewish believers in Jesus to abandon those practices. They should have just kicked out the Judaizers if they were trying to force other believers to adopt the same practices.

The myth amongst Sabbath observers that Sabbath observance was common amongst Christians at the time of Constantine is unfounded, though. As I mentioned, even SDA historian Samuele Bacchiocchi agrees that this is not true. The vast majority of Christian Sabbath observers abandoned the practice prior to AD140. There is also no record of martyrdom of Sabbath observers at the time of Constantine.

Another humungus error is the claim that the pope changed the Sabbath, and that the Roman Catholic church changed the Sabbath. Ellen G. White claimed to see this in a vision (by the way this makes her a false prophet).

While the Roman Catholic church has CLAIMED to change church meetings and the day of rest from the Sabbath to Sunday, this claim is nonsense as Rome was only one bishopric of several in the church until AD450 or later. I don't acknowledge their existence until AD600 in any significant form. They started making boastful claims of preeminence about AD450. Some would even place their date of existence as late as 1050.

The Roman Catholic church makes other claims that are out of line, such as saying Peter was the first pope. Why do Sabbath observers believe them on the Sabbath issue, when they reject their claim regarding Peter?

These historical distortions are things I was taught as a Sabbath observer and they are outrageously false.
 
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Nov 22, 2015
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#7
It certainly doesn't take long for the Judazisers to come in after the gospel has been preached to bring self-effort and the "doing" of things that can replace dependency on the grace of Christ alone for salvation and life.

By the time Paul had came to Jerusalem in Acts 21 the gospel had been watered down severely to a works-based Old Covenant mindset They also followed Paul where ever he went and he was a bit upset with them in the book of Galatians.

Acts 21:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;
 
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sparkman

Guest
#8
It certainly doesn't take long for the Judazisers to come in after the gospel has been preached to bring self-effort and the "doing" of things that can replace dependency on the grace of Christ alone for salvation and life.

By the time Paul had came to Jerusalem in Acts 21 the gospel had been watered down severely to a works-based Old Covenant mindset They also followed Paul where ever he went and he was a bit upset with them in the book of Galatians.

Acts 21:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;
We may view these Scriptures differently. I think that these Christians in Acts 21 were Jews who still wanted to continue their observances, but did not view them in a salvation sense. Paul was being accused by them of teaching non-Palestinian Jews that they should not observe the Torah, even as a matter of cultural preference. So, he performed a purification rite in the temple as a result, to prove that he was not against the cultural observances of the Jews.

My view is that there is nothing wrong with cultural Jews continuing on with the observance of elements of Mosaic Covenant, such as Sabbath, festivals, and clean/unclean meats..even physical circumcision..as a demonstration of cultural unity with other Jews, and as a bridge to bring them into Christianity (as an evangelistic tool). But, there is something wrong if 1) they aren't aware that justification is by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone or 2) they insist that all Gentiles or all Jews must observe these elements of the Old Covenant. If a Jewish person or Gentile WANTS to observe these things, it's another issue.

However I may misunderstand you. I am very precise in how I word my position as I know a few would like to point out inconsistencies with it, since I am a former observer.
 
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Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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#9
The Bible says the Law is a curse (Galatians 3:10-13). The Law was given only to be our schoolmaster - a mirror - to show us how sinful we are, and how unable we are, to keep the Law. The Law can only drive one to the cross. Those who attempt to keep the Law as a means of righteousness, are placing themselves under the curse - because they are then required to keep the whole Law and not stumble at any point (Galatians 3:10).
 
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sparkman

Guest
#10
The Bible says the Law is a curse (Galatians 3:10-13). The Law was given only to be our schoolmaster - a mirror - to show us how sinful we are, and how unable we are, to keep the Law. The Law can only drive one to the cross. Those who attempt to keep the Law as a means of righteousness, are placing themselves under the curse - because they are then required to keep the whole Law and not stumble at any point (Galatians 3:10).
Yes, the key is what you said... "as a means of righteousness". If someone thinks that, they are off base. I would add that if they try to force others to observe elements of the Mosaic Covenant (boundary markers), then they are doing what the Judaizers were doing, and they are anathema (Gal 1:6-7). I think it's a very serious thing to say that the Mosaic Covenant is still in effect and binding on believers, since Paul pronounced anathema on Judaizers.

However, I don't think it's wrong for a Messianic Jew or a Gentile to continue observances of these boundary marker commandments such as Sabbath, festivals, and clean/unclean meats if they aren't engaged in judging non-observers. I did as an observer. I considered non-observers to be non-Christians. Some others consider them to be disobedient Christians, rather than non-Christians.

If I remember right you had some history with Armstrongism so you know what I'm talking about.
 

FreeNChrist

Senior Member
Aug 24, 2015
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#11
As a former Sabbathkeeper, I listen to some debates or discussions about the topic of "boundary marker" commandments from the Mosaic Covenant.

"Boundary marker" commandments are those commandments that were meant to keep ancient Israel distinct from the Gentile nations. They are not objective moral commandments. I would include the Sabbath, festivals, clean/unclean meat laws, physical circumcision, and dress prohibitions within those commandments. There was also an aspect that they were shadows or types of spiritual realities. For instance, the Sabbath was a type of the spiritual rest that Christians have through placing their faith in Jesus Christ...a rest from dead works and trying to justify yourself before God on the basis of them (Matthew 11:28-30, Colossians 2:16-17, Hebrews 4:9-10).

I have no issue with those who want to observe Sabbath, though, if they have no issue with those Christians who have church meetings on Sunday in honor of the resurrection. Paul is plain that this sort of tolerance should be part of the church in Romans 14. It's rebels which claim Sunday observers are under the mark of the Beast or are being disobedient to God that ruffle my feathers. And, early Christianity ws unfair to ethnic Jews in the past, who wanted to maintain cultural elements of their heritage while continuing to be faithful followers of Jesus Christ. I've been studying this in a book called Introduction to Messianic Judaism.

Dr. Michael Brown, who is a Messianic Jew himself, answered questions from callers on the topic of the Sabbath in a recent broadcast. His position, like that of many Messianic Jews, is that he observes these boundary marker commandments (he may not use that term by the way..it's my term adopted from other scholoars), but does not claim that others, Gentile or Jew, need to observe them. A lot of the answers he gives in this audio are the same as the explanations I would give as an ex-Sabbathkeeper and I will be listening to more of his audios on these topics.

I realize he's not well liked amongst some in the Hebrew Roots Movement because he dispels some of their bad notions, including claiming that the Hebrew pictographic alphabet provides extra insight into Scripture. The HRM assertions are similar to the Bible code stuff, where the adherents claim that secret messages are encoded in Scripture, and that if you only had the key (in their case, the Hebrew pictographic alphabet), you would understand them. Dr. Michael Brown possesses a PhD in Semitic Languages (Hebrew) from a decent university, so his word trumps theirs, in my opinion, plus I am not much for claiming that God intentionally tries to hide meaning from Christians. I think the text speaks plainly for itself.

He's also dispelled the notion of some Hebrew Roots Movement people , which claim the New Testament or parts of it were written originally in Hebrew. He notes that there is NO manuscript evidence to support this claim. Even if there was manuscript evidence, it would be meaningless because the New Testament writings were translated into MANY languages. That's part of the beauty of the Greek language. It was the universal trade language at the time, and someone in just about every nation understood it. So, they could take the writings and translate them into their own language for the benefit of all. This enabled the writings to be disseminated over a wide area quickly.

I'm also not real fond of the assertions of some within this group that we, as Western thinking Christians, are inferior because we don't understand the Hebrew mindset. About every seminary trains students in some level of original language, AND about the underlying culture and customs of the writers, so the claims of the Hebrew Roots Movement on this issue are overstated, and reflect a strong false pride...reminds me of the Armstrongites I hung out with as a young Christian.

Anyways, I love Dr. Brown's soundness on this topic. He brings a voice of sanity into the Messianic Jew camp. My understanding is that Jews for Jesus as a whole are balanced when it comes to these issues.

Here's the link to the audio:

The Sabbath Debate Continues : Line of Fire

I enjoyed listening to it, and if you are interested in the topic, you might enjoy it as well.

The previous day's broadcast is related and you might want to listen to it first, although it is more specifically about SDAs:

What Do Seventh Day Adventists Believe? : Line of Fire

I do not agree with Dr. Michael Brown on his charismatic positions, but he is very good on topics like Messianic Judaism, Sabbath, festivals, clean and unclean meat laws and the Torah. His theology is quite a bit different than mine on other topics such as the Brownsville revival, but I respect him as a brother in Christ and agree with his teachings on the topic of the boundary marker commandments.
Personally, I think he has singlehandedly done more damage to the cause of Christ than any living person. He will have much to answer for when he stands before the One who is the very embodiment of God's grace.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#12
Personally, I think he has singlehandedly done more damage to the cause of Christ than any living person. He will have much to answer for when he stands before the One who is the very embodiment of God's grace.
You're delusional.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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#13
The Bible says the Law is a curse (Galatians 3:10-13).
the bible says the law was ordained unto life, and Wherefore [the law is holy],
and the commandment holy, and just, and good. - the law was [not] the curse
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/134102-take-ten-commandments.html#post2564064

also the handwriting of requirements-the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/134102-take-ten-commandments.html#post2564035

The Law was given only to be our schoolmaster - a mirror -
to show us how sinful we are, and how unable we are, to keep the Law.
that is not the reasons God gave his Sabbaths and laws,

“Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them,
that they might know that I am the [Eternal] that sanctify them.

But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness:
they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments,

which if [a man do], he[God] shall even [live in] them; [men-us]


and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury
upon them in the wilderness, to consume them”(Ezekiel 20:12-13).

-sounds like they had a choice wether to obey or not, was Abraham unable to?

Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge,
my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
because thou hast [obeyed my voice].

even in THE LATTER DAYS, if thou turn to the LORD thy God,
and shalt be OBEDIENT UNTO HIS VOICE; - [The Voice] -
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/132104-keep-4th-command-2.html#post2506557

But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be
my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land
of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice.

the promises and the covenants of God, all the sonship and the glory,
belong sole to Israel (Romans 9:4).

And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/134268-when-actual-sabbath-7.html#post2590354

-

why was [the oracles of God] given to us?
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/132196-what-easter-4.html#post2524866


the New Covenant validates God's laws by putting them right into
the minds and hearts of true Christians!

Jesus "magnified" God's law (Isaiah 42:21, KJV). He taught that Christians are
not to murder, and must not even harbor an attitude of hate (Matthew 5:21–24)

"If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matthew 19:17).

Christ came "to confirm the promises made to the fathers" (Romans 15:8).
He outlined the terms and conditions of the New Covenant, saying:
"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God" (Luke 4:4; Deu 8:3).

As He explained: "The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the
kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. And it is easier
for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail" (Luke 16:16–17).
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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#14

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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#15
The early Christians began to worship God on Sunday (the Lord's Day),
because the first day of the week became associated with Christ's resurrection
(Matthew 28:1-10; Luke 24:1; John 20:1; Revelation 1:10).
there is nothing in the bible that says [sunday] is "the Lords" day.
John was in a future vision about the day of the Lord.

there is 8 verses in the new testement with the phrase "the first day of the week,
all of them it is a normal work day, first workday of the week, after the Sabbath passed.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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#16
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RobbyEarl

Senior Member
Feb 7, 2016
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#17
In acts the disciples met on the first day of the week which is Sunday. However the whole Sabbath thing is a conundrum. I the OT they were to give sacrifice on the Sabbath and do no work. But, yet the priest and the levites profaned the Sabbath by killing animals and doing the work of the temple, did they not. Why were they excused, it was a ton of work that had to be performed according to the law. Why would you carry that same burden over to the NT where grace abounds. I know why and it will make you mad, because man glories in what He can keep and do. Keeping the Sabbath glorify's the flesh and it feels good.

I'm not saying don't go to church, but don't go to church to get God, take God with you. If you want God in your church, you have to get Him in your bedroom first
 
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sparkman

Guest
#18
Claiming that "breaking bread" always means eating a meal is a fallacy. It does not always mean to eat a meal, and in fact refers to communion sometimes. Your own presuppositions guide your view on that topic, namely, you believe communion can only be observed once a year, per the teachings of Herbert Armstrong.

Christ said that as often as you eat it, you observe his death. Claiming that communion can only be observed once a year is an error, because Scripture teaches otherwise. If you want to do it that way, fine. You need to extend to others the liberality of a different view.

I Corinthians 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

You have to twist these words to fit your presuppositions. Your presupposition is that communion cannot be observed more than once a year, so you will view all other Scriptures in light of this presupposition, and ignore what the text plainly says.

Many of the disciples in Jesus' day would go to synagogue on Sabbath to hear the word of God read, because scrolls were housed in the synagogue, and then would meet amongst themselves on Sunday to take communion and to discuss the Scriptures from a Christian standpoint. This was because the Scriptures were not readily available except in the synagogue, and obviously they couldn't observe communion right in front of unbelieving Jews.

By the way, I'm wondering whether you think a Christian slave in the Roman Empire, with a Gentile master, would be required to keep the Sabbath for salvation even if his master forced him to work on Sabbath? Would he forfeit his salvation if he failed to keep the Sabbath? Undoubtedly this situation existed in the Roman Empire....that slaves were saved, and that their masters would require them to work all days of the week. Why don't we read anything about such conflicts? And why do we never find Sabbath breaking or eating unclean meats listed on the sin lists to the Gentiles? Also, why didn't Paul address the subject of Sabbathkeeping and how to do it in his epistles to the Gentiles if it still applied?

I know Jewish Christians observed the Sabbath..they even continued to observe physical circumcision (Acts 21). So their observance of the Sabbath, as recorded in Scripture, proves nothing. They did it out of preference and/or cultural identification, and not out of requirement.

And, by the way, the population of much of the "Gentile" churches was also Jewish. Jews migrated outside of Palestine and lived in those areas for decades prior to Christ. That was one of the big problems with Armstrongism..he apparently didn't know that (or knew it and conveniently ignored it), and assumed that all Christians in the Corinthian church, for example, were Gentile and they were not. A sizeable number of Jews (maybe most of them) were present in the congregation.

I'd be very interested in hearing your response on these questions...but please, no cut and paste stuff from Armstrongite sites. I don't read anything from blasphemers who claim they will be God in the resurrection.

I think it's pretty sad that you've never escaped the rabbit trail of Scriptures and reasoning that you were taught by Armstrong.

Also, I have nothing against those who keep the Sabbath who don't claim others are unsaved, inferior or disobedient for non-observance. It's a matter of personal decision per Romans 14. As an Armstrongite, I considered all non-observers to be unsaved so I react strongly to that, having repented of that attitude and belief.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#19
Personally, I think he has singlehandedly done more damage to the cause of Christ than any living person. He will have much to answer for when he stands before the One who is the very embodiment of God's grace.
What does he say that's worthy of that level of scorn? My understanding is that he's a typical Arminian in regards to those issues. While I am not Arminian, I figure he's pretty representative of their theology.

Also, does he merit more scorn than an atheist? Your words would seem to indicate so.

I am not a big fan of charismatic teachings so I wouldn't listen to him on that topic but regarding Hebrew, Judaism and the Torah he's solid. I guess he's also spoken out against hypergrace teachings but I haven't listened to him on that topic either.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#20
The rituals, ceremonies, and festivals of the Jewish religious calendar which God had given to the Jews is being discussed in Galatians 4:9-11, but is not binding on the church under the New Covenant. Paul warns the Galatians, as he did the Colossians (See Romans 14:1-6; Colossians 2:16-17) against legalistically observing them as if they were required by God or could earn favor with Him in regards to receiving salvation. I see no validity to your argument in regards to Galatians 4:9-11 in post #7 in the Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit thread.