End Times Question

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Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
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#21
Hello Endoscopy,

Some of the mainstream issues regarding these eschatological views are as follows:

1. The coming wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments

a. Some expositors have discounted the first six seals as not belonging to God's wrath, referring to them as tribulation or Satan's wrath, with others believing that only the bowl judgments as representing the wrath of God. What they fail to understand and reject, is that it is the Lamb/Jesus who is opening the seals, which lead into the trumpets, followed by the bowl judgment. Therefore Christ is the one who is the One unleashing God's wrath, not Satan or mankind.

b. Not believing nor understanding that believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath or any wrath, as revealed in 1 Thes.1:10, 5:9 and Rev.3:10.

c. Not understanding that along with meeting the righteous requirements of the law, that Jesus also took upon himself the wrath of God that all believers deserve, satisfying it completely, which is why we are not appointed to suffer it.

d. They water down God's wrath, some believing that it has already taken place applying it to historical events, with others not understanding the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that will be brought by the two witnesses.

e. Not understanding from scripture who God's wrath will be directed at which will be the arrogant, the proud and haughty, those who will have rejected Christ and those who continue to willfully live according to the sinful nature as revealed in Rev.9:20-21. Believers will have already received Christ and will have repented of those things and there would therefore be nothing else we could do and no reason for us to go through God's wrath. And when they say that God is going to protect the church during his wrath, it again brings us back to them not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath.

f. Then there are some who relocate and reduce the time of God's wrath as an apologetic to those who provide scripture to the contrary and to make it fit the teaching that they have adopted, when scripture makes clear that God's wrath will take place during that entire seven year period, with Jesus returning at the end to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

2. Not recognizing the gathering of the church as being a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age

a. Regarding this, some interpret Matt.24:31 as the church being gathered, not realizing that according to scripture, the church will not be gathered by angels, but that when that voice says "come up here," the dead will rise on their own being transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies being caught up in the air, with the living being changed into their immortal and glorified bodies with the entire church meeting Christ in the air.

These different views are arrived at via a myriad of misinterpretations and misapplications of scripture. The gathering of the church in relation to the wrath of God is always the barrier that we cannot cross, which is the main error of the other views.
I hate to break the bad news but I studied the eschatologyical scriptures off and on for several years starting at 18. I later became a deacon and later an elder. Part of the class all elected deacons and elders were forced to take had the issue of eschatology. We had 4 pastors and each took a different view but all admitted that they could be wrong. The main problem is that Daniel and Revelation are written with so much symbolic language that theologians have for centuries held that there are 4 seperate and distinct Biblical views of eschatology (end times). While only one will probably be correct it is impossible to currently state which one that is.

Myself I adhere to the pan View. It will all pan out in the end.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
113
#22
I hate to break the bad news but I studied the eschatologyical scriptures off and on for several years starting at 18. I later became a deacon and later an elder. Part of the class all elected deacons and elders were forced to take had the issue of eschatology. We had 4 pastors and each took a different view but all admitted that they could be wrong. The main problem is that Daniel and Revelation are written with so much symbolic language that theologians have for centuries held that there are 4 seperate and distinct Biblical views of eschatology (end times). While only one will probably be correct it is impossible to currently state which one that is.

Myself I adhere to the pan View. It will all pan out in the end.
Regarding those other views and the views of those deacons, please refer to the reasons that I previously posted, as these are the main stream reasons for the different views and only one can be correct.

Myself I adhere to the pan View. It will all pan out in the end.
God's purpose for giving us the information regarding Revelation is stated right in the first verse:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God have Him to show his servants the things that must soon take place."

Therefore God gave this to us so that we could know the coming events and their order. As I previously stated, the reason for these other views is based on misinterpretation and misapplication of scripture.

I am confident that when we received Christ that we were credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. And since the wrath of God was poured out on Christ on every believers behalf, then we will be gathered prior to the first seal being opened which is what initiates God's wrath.

God the Father did not give the information contained in Revelation to Jesus so that we could not know it. It is the distortion that Satan has mingled in with all of these false teachings as the reason why we have these other views.

I have and will personally stick with the promise of the Lord that he went to prepare places for us in the Father's house. And that he is coming back again to get us and take us to those dwelling places, which is described in detail in John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-18. And that this event will take place prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath and represents that rider on the white horse, the antichrist.
 
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Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
113
#23
Your eschatology is confused. There are 4 seperate Biblical views of eschatology. Jesus said no man knows when it will happen but only the Father. At 73 I have seen several attempt to make a date for it to happen when I was a teenager and later. Those dates and times are past so Jesus was correct. I turn a deaf ear to any pronouncement about even a general time. Too many have come and gone!!!
That is the problem! The Lord's return to gather the church has always been imminent, on the horizon, in the workings, about ready to take place until it does. You are correct in that we cannot know the exact time of this event, but we can see how close it is. For example, we have scripture regarding the mark of the beast which will go in/on the right hand or forehead of the individual who receives it and that for the purpose of buying and selling, which is electronic crediting and debiting. Regarding this we have companies in Sweden and now here in the US, who are offering RFID chips to be implanted under the skin of the hand and one of its purposes is to make electronic purchases.

It is when we see these things that we can do what Jesus said for us to do, which is to "Watch!" If we can see the stage being set for the events that are to take place after the church is gone, then how close are we to the Lord appearing and the church being gathered? Then add to this all that has been going on with Israel and the state of the nations of the world. One would have to be blind to not see how close we are.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
#24
That is the problem! The Lord's return to gather the church has always been imminent, on the horizon, in the workings, about ready to take place until it does. You are correct in that we cannot know the exact time of this event, but we can see how close it is. For example, we have scripture regarding the mark of the beast which will go in/on the right hand or forehead of the individual who receives it and that for the purpose of buying and selling, which is electronic crediting and debiting. Regarding this we have companies in Sweden and now here in the US, who are offering RFID chips to be implanted under the skin of the hand and one of its purposes is to make electronic purchases.

It is when we see these things that we can do what Jesus said for us to do, which is to "Watch!" If we can see the stage being set for the events that are to take place after the church is gone, then how close are we to the Lord appearing and the church being gathered? Then add to this all that has been going on with Israel and the state of the nations of the world. One would have to be blind to not see how close we are.
I have read several publications of those who predict the date of Christ coming again. There was even a group of people that gathered together with one person predicting the event. All of those dates came and went. This is what I was referring to.

Predict a specific date and I will ignore it. Jesus said only the Father knows the date.
 
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H

heartofdavid

Guest
#25
Eschatology is a very murky area of study. There are 4 main views of it. Each Biblical and different. Daniel and Revelation are so symbolic it is very difficult to try to find a single view. Here are a couple of links to the 4 different Biblical versions of the end times (eschatology).

Here are a couple of sites discussing the 4 main eschatologyical views. Notice some have minor variations.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/millenni.htm

After reading these can anyone tell me what is difinitively going to happen?
Not at all.
Jesus returns for his bride.....Mat 25

The last supper was the betrothal.
The rapture of 1 thes 4 is the gathering of one taken,one left in mat 24 and the bride gathered in mat 25.

Note,ONLY PRETRB ADHERENTS inject those dynamics into the study.

But even beyond that,the earth redeemed and the throne of David re established.

Without the entire picture ,people are projecting misplaced pieces, void of heavens
Vision and purpose.

What happens is,the GT becomes people's misplaced CENTER. With the incorrect CENTER, they launch out into doomed doctrine that is easily refuted because it STARTED wrong.
They begin wrong,from the wrong vantage point.

Thus,your end times view either pollutes or enhances your entire perspective of the word.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
#26
Not at all.
Jesus returns for his bride.....Mat 25

The last supper was the betrothal.
The rapture of 1 thes 4 is the gathering of one taken,one left in mat 24 and the bride gathered in mat 25.

Note,ONLY PRETRB ADHERENTS inject those dynamics into the study.

But even beyond that,the earth redeemed and the throne of David re established.

Without the entire picture ,people are projecting misplaced pieces, void of heavens
Vision and purpose.

What happens is,the GT becomes people's misplaced CENTER. With the incorrect CENTER, they launch out into doomed doctrine that is easily refuted because it STARTED wrong.
They begin wrong,from the wrong vantage point.

Thus,your end times view either pollutes or enhances your entire perspective of the word.
You are leaving out a lot of details that are part and parcel of eschatologyical views. Try again giving the complete sequence of prophecied events. The devil is in the details of the sequence. Why do you think you are so much smarter than the theologians that have studied the issue for centuries??? You must have deciphered all the symbolism in Daniel and Revelation. You must be a super genius to accomplish this.
 

ComeLordJesus

Senior Member
Dec 26, 2017
372
39
28
#27
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

"shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" - this happened in the 1st century AD, there is nothing in the above that occurs after 70 AD.

Behold the piles of rock in the middle east where the sanctuary stood.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

At that time who was it that made a 7yr. deal with the Jews? No one. It has never been proven that anyone ever made and that would be Rome since they destroyed Jerusalem in 70AD ever made any deal with them for 7yrs.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#28
At that time who was it that made a 7yr. deal with the Jews? No one. It has never been proven that anyone ever made and that would be Rome since they destroyed Jerusalem in 70AD ever made any deal with them for 7yrs.
where is a seven year deal mentioned?. No mention is made of seven years. Rather it is a 'seven', a period of God's timing. That is your first and greatest mistake.

Jesus, the coming prince, renewed covenant for one 'seven' and in the midst of the seven He brought the offerings and sacrifices to cease, and this was followed forty years or so later by the destruction of the sanctuary by His people as the Romans invaded..
 

ComeLordJesus

Senior Member
Dec 26, 2017
372
39
28
#29
where is a seven year deal mentioned?. No mention is made of seven years. Rather it is a 'seven', a period of God's timing. That is your first and greatest mistake.

Jesus, the coming prince, renewed covenant for one 'seven' and in the midst of the seven He brought the offerings and sacrifices to cease, and this was followed forty years or so later by the destruction of the sanctuary by His people as the Romans invaded..
Your mistake is not understanding that a "week" in Biblical time is 7yrs.

Messiah the Prince (capital "P") had already died in v.26. Then comes the people of the prince (small "p") v.26, totally different person (The Anti-Christ), the people of the small "p" prince will destroy the city and it is "he" in v.27 that will confirm a covenant (or deal) that he will break in the midst of it 31/2yrs.
 
Apr 15, 2017
2,867
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#30
where is a seven year deal mentioned?. No mention is made of seven years. Rather it is a 'seven', a period of God's timing. That is your first and greatest mistake.

Jesus, the coming prince, renewed covenant for one 'seven' and in the midst of the seven He brought the offerings and sacrifices to cease, and this was followed forty years or so later by the destruction of the sanctuary by His people as the Romans invaded..
But you do not consider this.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

70 weeks are determined upon the nation of Israel to be in the truth,and to anoint the most Holy,who is Jesus.

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

69 weeks have passed and nobody debates that,but many are in disagreement about the 70th week.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Verse 26 speaks of the prince to come who will be from the Roman Empire who destroyed the city and sanctuary,and verse 27 continues speaking of the prince to come that will confirm a covenant for 7 years.

Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.


God will bring back the captivity of Jacob,the whole house of Israel,and put them on their land,and leave none of them in the nations,and God will not hide His face from them anymore,and they will know the LORD their God from that day and forward,and be in the truth for evermore.

If this were a past prophesy then Israel would of been in the truth from that day and forward,and would be in the truth today,and if people say it is the Babylonian captivity,they would of been in the truth from that day and forward and would of never rejected Christ.

So it is a future event,and Israel has 70 weeks to get in the truth,and accept Jesus as their Messiah,but the nation of Israel has not done that yet,so the 70th week could of not been fulfilled.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Israel is blinded in part,they accept the Old Testament for the most part,but not the New Testament,until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in,when salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles,and so all Israel shall be saved,for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance,for God called them and will always be with them,and one day restore the kingdom on earth to Israel,which the heathen will know that God was with them all along.

God has not cast away His people He once foreknew,and I am the LORD,I change not,therefore you sons of Jacob are not consumed,and if the sun,and moon,and stars,and the ordinances of heaven are still in affect,then Israel shall not cease from being a nation.

The 70th week could not of happened because Israel as a nation is not in the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.

The 7 years period is the time God causes all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom,so He can end this sin business on earth,and bring Israel to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah,and restore the kingdom on earth to Israel,which God will make a full end of all nations,but will not make a full end of Israel.

The man of sin will establish peace in the Middle East,and it will pave the way for all Jews to go to Israel,and none of them will be left in the nations,and the Jews and the Gentiles will be separated.

The Jews will split Jerusalem with the Palestinians,and the Jews will rebuild their temple with no hassle from the Palestinians,and since the Jews are blinded in part will go by the Old Testament concerning their temple.

The Gentile nations will come together and say,Peace and safety,as they try to establish peace on earth.

The world will operate by the ten horn kingdom,the world split in to ten sections with a leader in each section for three and one half years,for a short space.

The ten horn kingdom failed at obtaining peace on earth,which the Bible says when they say Peace and safety then sudden destruction comes upon them,and they shall not escape.

The world will turn to the man of sin,the beast,New Age Christ,as the answer to achieve peace on earth,who will be a man understanding dark sentences,and things they have not heard before in peace for the world,and he will step in to the Jews temple,and claim to be God and their Messiah.

When the world takes the mark of the beast then repentance and salvation are no longer available to them,and the fulness of the Gentiles have come in.

God will then turn Israel to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah for three and one half years,and at the end of the 7 years period Israel as a nation is in the truth and the 70th week is fulfilled.

The beast and his army will attack Jerusale,and then Jesus will save them,and the kingdom on earth restored to the Jews,and so all Israel shall be saved.

Israel has 70 weeks to get in the truth that Jesus is their Messiah which they have not done yet,so the 70th week has not happened and is in the future.

Jesus said the Jews house is left unto them desolate until they say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord.

The first attack on Jerusalem by the Roman Empire,because they rejected Christ,and God allowed the attack.

The second attack on Jerusalem by the world,because they accepted Christ,and say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord,and God does not allow the attack,and saves Israel.
 
Dec 23, 2017
35
1
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#31
1. THEY MOVE THE CAPITAL TO JERUSALEM = SYRIA, EGYPT ATTACK JERUSALEM
2. JERUSALEM CONQUERS SYRIA AND EGYPT AND GETS PROMISED HOLY LAND BACK WITH OIL WELLS.
3. PEACE TREATY BETWEEN SYRIA AND POPE AND JERUSALEM
4. POPE AGREES TO MOSAIC LAW AND TEMPLE BUILT
5. PEACE AND SAFETY PLAN FOR 7 YEARS BEFORE AGREEING TO DUAL CITY OF JERUSALEM
6. MAN OF SIN BREAKS COVENANT AGREEMENT AND ARMIES OF THE NORTH (TURKEY & RUSSIA) INVADE.
7. JERUSALEM CAPTURED AND TWO WITNESSES START PREACHING.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
#32
1. THEY MOVE THE CAPITAL TO JERUSALEM = SYRIA, EGYPT ATTACK JERUSALEM
2. JERUSALEM CONQUERS SYRIA AND EGYPT AND GETS PROMISED HOLY LAND BACK WITH OIL WELLS.
3. PEACE TREATY BETWEEN SYRIA AND POPE AND JERUSALEM
4. POPE AGREES TO MOSAIC LAW AND TEMPLE BUILT
5. PEACE AND SAFETY PLAN FOR 7 YEARS BEFORE AGREEING TO DUAL CITY OF JERUSALEM
6. MAN OF SIN BREAKS COVENANT AGREEMENT AND ARMIES OF THE NORTH (TURKEY & RUSSIA) INVADE.
7. JERUSALEM CAPTURED AND TWO WITNESSES START PREACHING.
​This post and the previous one about the 70 weeks I have read several different versions about them. Several predictions based on the starting and ending of the 70 weeks have failed. There have been different versions of which countries are involved. At this point I ignore all predictions about these prophecies. It will be obvious when it happens. These prophecies tell Christians at the time that the end is near.
 
E

Ellsworth1943

Guest
#33
Your mistake is not understanding that a "week" in Biblical time is 7yrs.

Messiah the Prince (capital "P") had already died in v.26. Then comes the people of the prince (small "p") v.26, totally different person (The Anti-Christ), the people of the small "p" prince will destroy the city and it is "he" in v.27 that will confirm a covenant (or deal) that he will break in the midst of it 31/2yrs.
Well, the anti-Christ did not destroy Jerusalem in 70AD, The Roman army under the leadership of Titus destroyed the city and the temple. The prince was the emperor in Rome who was Titus' father.
 

ComeLordJesus

Senior Member
Dec 26, 2017
372
39
28
#34
Well, the anti-Christ did not destroy Jerusalem in 70AD, The Roman army under the leadership of Titus destroyed the city and the temple. The prince was the emperor in Rome who was Titus' father.
A quick re-read of the passage says that this prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary and will make a deal with what is obviously the Jews since the sacrifices will cease and will make a deal for a week and in Biblical time a week is 7yrs, if you can show me where Vespasian ever made a deal for 7yrs with the Jews that will be interesting.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
16,724
10,530
113
77
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#35
A quick re-read of the passage says that this prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary and will make a deal with what is obviously the Jews since the sacrifices will cease and will make a deal for a week and in Biblical time a week is 7yrs, if you can show me where Vespasian ever made a deal for 7yrs with the Jews that will be interesting.
Hello ComeLordJesus,

You keep calling the Jews "Israel." What makes you so sure? Judah is only a part of Israel. Like all bears are mammals, but not all mammals are bears. Think about it.

Yours,

Deade
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
69
48
#36
Hi All....
Does everyone know the next big event coming any day or year to our planet?
No, it's not Jesus coming back to reign for a thousand years.
It's the seven year peace plan.
You can lose your soul if you are deceived by the coming Antichrist.
Here is the best short video I have found explaining this end times prophecy in detail.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPRDpUvrldo

Have a great day! :)
Here is a picture of end times event that will unfold:

Revelation Timeline (uncompleted).jpg
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
113
#37
No it ain't and it don't.
 

ComeLordJesus

Senior Member
Dec 26, 2017
372
39
28
#38
That is the problem! The Lord's return to gather the church has always been imminent, on the horizon, in the workings, about ready to take place until it does. You are correct in that we cannot know the exact time of this event, but we can see how close it is. For example, we have scripture regarding the mark of the beast which will go in/on the right hand or forehead of the individual who receives it and that for the purpose of buying and selling, which is electronic crediting and debiting. Regarding this we have companies in Sweden and now here in the US, who are offering RFID chips to be implanted under the skin of the hand and one of its purposes is to make electronic purchases.

It is when we see these things that we can do what Jesus said for us to do, which is to "Watch!" If we can see the stage being set for the events that are to take place after the church is gone, then how close are we to the Lord appearing and the church being gathered? Then add to this all that has been going on with Israel and the state of the nations of the world. One would have to be blind to not see how close we are.
We're gonna know something is up for sure when the temple in Jerusalem is rebuilt.