-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
One of about 4 theological battle grounds for sure.....
I was raised in a church that taught the imminent return of Jesus....I believed it, defended it dogmatically and believed anyone who thought any different were wrong. I then spent 28 years looking into it (which means nothing I know) and have decided that the Parousia (coming) of JESUS and the resurrection/change (rapture so called) is post great tribulation/pre-wrath at the 7th trump of Revelation. Most disagree with this view.....does not matter....Jesus will come when it is time for him to come and then we will all see and know the truth concerning his coming.
Having said that....in defense of my stance I wrote a 212 page book with 26 chapters in 2007 and need to add about 10 more chapters....the book is in my blog here in CC.....
My advice....pray hard, study Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13, Daniel, 1st Thessalonians, 2nd Thessalonians, 2nd Peter, 1st Corinthians 15, Revelation and let the Lord lead you into the truth....Pay attention to ALL words, study all words and BE honest with the contexts, verbiage and definitions of words given..........
I was raised in a church that taught the imminent return of Jesus....I believed it, defended it dogmatically and believed anyone who thought any different were wrong. I then spent 28 years looking into it (which means nothing I know) and have decided that the Parousia (coming) of JESUS and the resurrection/change (rapture so called) is post great tribulation/pre-wrath at the 7th trump of Revelation. Most disagree with this view.....does not matter....Jesus will come when it is time for him to come and then we will all see and know the truth concerning his coming.
Having said that....in defense of my stance I wrote a 212 page book with 26 chapters in 2007 and need to add about 10 more chapters....the book is in my blog here in CC.....
My advice....pray hard, study Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13, Daniel, 1st Thessalonians, 2nd Thessalonians, 2nd Peter, 1st Corinthians 15, Revelation and let the Lord lead you into the truth....Pay attention to ALL words, study all words and BE honest with the contexts, verbiage and definitions of words given..........
D
Things to know:
A. We've been living in "End Times since @ 40 AD.
B. Because you are young, lots of "Christians" will fill you with fear and trepidation over their personal beliefs in End Times -- whether that includes "rapture" or not, whether they think Christians get taken before or after tribulation, whether someone or something reigns for 1000 years or not, and whether there is an AntiChrist, Gogs and Magogs, boogeymen, or microchips. You will hear it all. Why? Because you're young and impressionable so they can get one other victim wasting her life fearing all sorts of idiotic stuff in the world, with the biggest catch being "too afraid to do anything."
Skip it all. It's like deciding who is better Superman or Harry Potter. Which is better Star Wars or Lord of the Rings? It's a game of fiction played by people who rather focus on the fiction then the one we should be focusing our attention on -- God!
Will life get harder? Maybe, maybe not. Will Jesus come in your life time? Maybe, but we've been waiting for close to 2000 years now, and every generation wondered the same thing. BUT the big question in life is now that The God of the Universe, the Lord over Man, the Prince of Peace, the Righteous One has saved you -- what will you do now? Focus on him, or focus on the 20,000 ways to waste time on this forum?
And I say that as someone who was saved at your age, and filled with that pile of manure for the next eight years -- not a good start in the Lord.
A. We've been living in "End Times since @ 40 AD.
B. Because you are young, lots of "Christians" will fill you with fear and trepidation over their personal beliefs in End Times -- whether that includes "rapture" or not, whether they think Christians get taken before or after tribulation, whether someone or something reigns for 1000 years or not, and whether there is an AntiChrist, Gogs and Magogs, boogeymen, or microchips. You will hear it all. Why? Because you're young and impressionable so they can get one other victim wasting her life fearing all sorts of idiotic stuff in the world, with the biggest catch being "too afraid to do anything."
Skip it all. It's like deciding who is better Superman or Harry Potter. Which is better Star Wars or Lord of the Rings? It's a game of fiction played by people who rather focus on the fiction then the one we should be focusing our attention on -- God!
Will life get harder? Maybe, maybe not. Will Jesus come in your life time? Maybe, but we've been waiting for close to 2000 years now, and every generation wondered the same thing. BUT the big question in life is now that The God of the Universe, the Lord over Man, the Prince of Peace, the Righteous One has saved you -- what will you do now? Focus on him, or focus on the 20,000 ways to waste time on this forum?
And I say that as someone who was saved at your age, and filled with that pile of manure for the next eight years -- not a good start in the Lord.
Good day Nehemiah6,
I disagree and believe that the gathering of the church is mentioned in Revelation.
"After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”
In Rev.1:19, John is told to write the following:
What you've seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 thru 1:19
What is now = Represented by the letters to the churches, which represents the entire church period
What will take place later = The events which take place after the "what is now" i.e. after the church period
In Rev.4:1 John hears that voice that sounds like a trumpet which says, "come up here." I believe the voice like a trumpet is synonymous with "the trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:17. This is also the reason why the word "Ekklesia/Church" is never used again from chapter 4 onward and that because Rev.4:1 is an allusion to the church being gathered.
As far as the imminency of the Lord's appearing and our being gathered, I whole-heartedly agree that it can occur at any moment.
I disagree and believe that the gathering of the church is mentioned in Revelation.
"After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”
In Rev.1:19, John is told to write the following:
What you've seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 thru 1:19
What is now = Represented by the letters to the churches, which represents the entire church period
What will take place later = The events which take place after the "what is now" i.e. after the church period
In Rev.4:1 John hears that voice that sounds like a trumpet which says, "come up here." I believe the voice like a trumpet is synonymous with "the trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:17. This is also the reason why the word "Ekklesia/Church" is never used again from chapter 4 onward and that because Rev.4:1 is an allusion to the church being gathered.
As far as the imminency of the Lord's appearing and our being gathered, I whole-heartedly agree that it can occur at any moment.
I think there have been 10-50 threads in this forum lately about this topic. You might want to do a search in the upper right part of the page, and read some of those threads.
I do not believe in a rapture! My challenge is simply this - the word is found no-where in any bible. Well, except a very bad Latin translation by Jerome, who didn't speak Hebrew or Greek well.
The few references to some sort of snatching away are twisted by dispensationalists in particular. I have gone into the Greek at length on this topic. Here is some of it, the parts on harpazio are missing.
1 Thess. 4:17 "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." NIV
άρπαγησόμεθα - harpagesometha -future active indicative from the verb άρπάζω, meaning to be caught up, snatched up in the air.*
I agree with others totally on this word. But the word in question is "meet"
άπάντησις - apantesis - fem, noun, nominative case. The word has a technical meaning in the Hellenistic world related to the visits of dignitaries to cities where the visitor would be formally met by the citizens, or a deputation of them, who went out from the city, and would then ceremonially escort him back into the city.*
Other occurrences of this word in the New Testament is Acts 28:15-16 "The brothers and sisters there had heard that we were coming, and they traveled as far as the Forum of Appius and the Three Taverns to MEET us. At the sight of these people Paul thanked God and was encouraged. 16 When we got to Rome, Paul was allowed to live by himself, with a soldier to guard him."
Therefore, we will be caught up in the air to return with Jesus back to a renewed and restored earth. There is no mention in this or any other passage that believers will be snatched away, rather going to meet Jesus and returning with him, as the believers in Rome went out to meet Paul and went back with him to the city.
The final reference which uses this word meet is in Matt. 25:6 "At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to MEET him!" The virgins went out to meet the bridegroom then went back with him.
This word in other Greek sources always refers to the people going out to meet a returning conqueror. The accompany him back to the city. They are not taken elsewhere.
Show me any where in Greek where it says they are taken somewhere, rather than returned. In fact, rapture as you have correctly stated is from the Latin Vulgate and is a corruption of the original Greek. The New Testament was written in Greek, not Latin. (Vulgate was translated in approx. 382 AD)
As for the tribulation, we are always in the tribulation. Take places like Communist China and North Korea and India and Saudi Arabia and Eritrea. Those believers are being killed for their faith, just as believers have often died for their faith.
Rev. 7:14 "I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
θλίφις - thliphis - trouble that inflicts distress, oppression, affliction, tribulation. This is the only reference to the tribulation in the Bible. Any Bible scholar knows you do NOT make a doctrine nor write a book based on one scripture. But fanciful interpretation of Rev. has gotten more than Harold Camping in trouble for this very poor reading of the Greek.#
Believe what you want. But if you want the truth, look at the original Bible, not the writings of men. And put the words into context of who Paul and Luke and John were writing to - the people of their own time, not the 21st century Christian.
*The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament" by Cleon L. Rogers Jr. and Cleon L. Rogers III, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids Michigan, 1998.
# The Greek - English Lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature. 3rd Edition. Danker and Bauers, The University of Chicago Press, 2000.
I do not believe in a rapture! My challenge is simply this - the word is found no-where in any bible. Well, except a very bad Latin translation by Jerome, who didn't speak Hebrew or Greek well.
The few references to some sort of snatching away are twisted by dispensationalists in particular. I have gone into the Greek at length on this topic. Here is some of it, the parts on harpazio are missing.
1 Thess. 4:17 "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." NIV
άρπαγησόμεθα - harpagesometha -future active indicative from the verb άρπάζω, meaning to be caught up, snatched up in the air.*
I agree with others totally on this word. But the word in question is "meet"
άπάντησις - apantesis - fem, noun, nominative case. The word has a technical meaning in the Hellenistic world related to the visits of dignitaries to cities where the visitor would be formally met by the citizens, or a deputation of them, who went out from the city, and would then ceremonially escort him back into the city.*
Other occurrences of this word in the New Testament is Acts 28:15-16 "The brothers and sisters there had heard that we were coming, and they traveled as far as the Forum of Appius and the Three Taverns to MEET us. At the sight of these people Paul thanked God and was encouraged. 16 When we got to Rome, Paul was allowed to live by himself, with a soldier to guard him."
Therefore, we will be caught up in the air to return with Jesus back to a renewed and restored earth. There is no mention in this or any other passage that believers will be snatched away, rather going to meet Jesus and returning with him, as the believers in Rome went out to meet Paul and went back with him to the city.
The final reference which uses this word meet is in Matt. 25:6 "At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to MEET him!" The virgins went out to meet the bridegroom then went back with him.
This word in other Greek sources always refers to the people going out to meet a returning conqueror. The accompany him back to the city. They are not taken elsewhere.
Show me any where in Greek where it says they are taken somewhere, rather than returned. In fact, rapture as you have correctly stated is from the Latin Vulgate and is a corruption of the original Greek. The New Testament was written in Greek, not Latin. (Vulgate was translated in approx. 382 AD)
As for the tribulation, we are always in the tribulation. Take places like Communist China and North Korea and India and Saudi Arabia and Eritrea. Those believers are being killed for their faith, just as believers have often died for their faith.
Rev. 7:14 "I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
θλίφις - thliphis - trouble that inflicts distress, oppression, affliction, tribulation. This is the only reference to the tribulation in the Bible. Any Bible scholar knows you do NOT make a doctrine nor write a book based on one scripture. But fanciful interpretation of Rev. has gotten more than Harold Camping in trouble for this very poor reading of the Greek.#
Believe what you want. But if you want the truth, look at the original Bible, not the writings of men. And put the words into context of who Paul and Luke and John were writing to - the people of their own time, not the 21st century Christian.
*The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament" by Cleon L. Rogers Jr. and Cleon L. Rogers III, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids Michigan, 1998.
# The Greek - English Lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature. 3rd Edition. Danker and Bauers, The University of Chicago Press, 2000.
Last edited:
may the peace of Yah be upon you brother, we may disagree but we can still praiseYah !
Can you Scriptually show me the 7th trumpet is not the last trumpet?
Revelation 11:15, “And the seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!”
Can you Scriptually show me the 7th trumpet is not the last trumpet?
Revelation 11:15, “And the seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!”
It is the last trumpet for the unrighteous, but definitely not the last trumpet for the saints. Now why don't you show us from Scripture that God will pour out His wrath on His saints, even though Christ took that wrath upon Himself at the Cross? Only if that were possible would the 7th trumpet of Revelation have anything to do with the saints.
Hmm, soI asked for sCRIPTUAL PROOF TO SUBSTIATE HIS CALIM and you return with that? If you were correct could you not show me?
\Do you agre with this?
I agree with this
and how can you say
Revelation 11:15, “And the seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!”
Mat 24:29-31, “And immediately after the distress of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”
1 Corinthians 15:51-55, “See, I speak a secret to you: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible has to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality. And when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall come to be the word that has been written, “Death is swallowed up in overcoming. O Death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your overcoming?”
\Do you agre with this?
I agree with this
and how can you say
Revelation 11:15, “And the seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!”
Mat 24:29-31, “And immediately after the distress of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”
1 Corinthians 15:51-55, “See, I speak a secret to you: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible has to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality. And when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall come to be the word that has been written, “Death is swallowed up in overcoming. O Death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your overcoming?”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As previously stated, the event above and the event below are not the same events. The trumpets mentioned in both are two different trumpets. And by your interpretation you continue to ignore the fact that it would put the church through God's wrath. As long you continue to not recognize these as being two separate events, your end-time conclusions will always be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And this is where your error is Ellsworth, i.e. not recognizing that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are three sets of plagues of wrath that God will use to fulfill the day of the Lord. They were not meant to be separated, but all represent God's wrath, God's tribulation. Regarding this, the Lamb/Jesus is the One opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets, followed by the bowls, which tells us that Jesus is the One responsible for initiating God's wrath. For scripture states that He is the One who tramples the wine press of the wrath of God Almighty, which is what the seals, trumpets and bowls are.
In addition to this, I have shown you from scripture, that the seals, trumpets and bowls are all referred to as wrath, but you didn't believe it.
Because the opening of the first seal is what initiates God's wrath/tribulation, which is symbolic representing the revealing of the antichrist, the church must be gathered prior to opening of the fist seal and that because we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.
Your other error is your play on the words tribulation and wrath, which is just semantics. From the on-set of the church Jesus said that believers would suffer trial and tribulation as a result of faith in Him, which comes at the hands of mankind and empowered by the powers of darkness. Once the church has been gathered, the tribulation that follows is God's direct wrath. The revealing of the antichrist, the seals, trumpets, bowls, the plagues of the two witnesses, etc., are all apart of God's wrath/tribulation!
You and others get in there and muck it up by making a distinction between tribulation vs. wrath, when everything after the gathering of the church is God's wrath, God's tribulation. You also don't understand the meaning of the Aorist tense in the Greek which says "The great day of their wrath has comeand who can endure it," which refers to God's wrath in its entirety, meaning that it includes the seals that were previously opened, as well as the trumpets and bowls which take place after the announcement of wrath.
And last but not least, the "last trumpet" has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet of the trumpets judgments. The "last trumpet" is a blessing, the gathering of the church vs. the 7th trumpet which is a plague of wrath.
In addition to this, I have shown you from scripture, that the seals, trumpets and bowls are all referred to as wrath, but you didn't believe it.
Because the opening of the first seal is what initiates God's wrath/tribulation, which is symbolic representing the revealing of the antichrist, the church must be gathered prior to opening of the fist seal and that because we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.
Your other error is your play on the words tribulation and wrath, which is just semantics. From the on-set of the church Jesus said that believers would suffer trial and tribulation as a result of faith in Him, which comes at the hands of mankind and empowered by the powers of darkness. Once the church has been gathered, the tribulation that follows is God's direct wrath. The revealing of the antichrist, the seals, trumpets, bowls, the plagues of the two witnesses, etc., are all apart of God's wrath/tribulation!
You and others get in there and muck it up by making a distinction between tribulation vs. wrath, when everything after the gathering of the church is God's wrath, God's tribulation. You also don't understand the meaning of the Aorist tense in the Greek which says "The great day of their wrath has comeand who can endure it," which refers to God's wrath in its entirety, meaning that it includes the seals that were previously opened, as well as the trumpets and bowls which take place after the announcement of wrath.
And last but not least, the "last trumpet" has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet of the trumpets judgments. The "last trumpet" is a blessing, the gathering of the church vs. the 7th trumpet which is a plague of wrath.
Last edited:
Can I ask a simple question, you brethren that talk about the coming antichrist how do you explain these verses in 1 John?... Brother Glen
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
2. Verse 19, antichrist went out from us, but they were not of us, to me it mean look like Christian but not. I believe it is catholic.
there are billion of catholic, mean there are million of antichrist. And in the end time one of them will rule the world
They are not opinions sir nor private interpretations! I have provided the scriptures and you have not understood these things. Did you notice that I supplied scripture to support everything that I proclaimed. Yet in your response to discredit me, you provided no scriptures at all to disprove what I posted. Who is the one going by opinion?
Stop teaching these things! God is not going to put his bride/church through the seals, trumpets or bowl judgments which make up God's wrath/tribulation. We have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. If you think that the church will be here during the times of seals, trumpets and bowls, they you do not understand that God is the One responsible for them and you also don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath.
The Lord is going to keep His promise by removing His church prior to the on-set of His wrath, which begins with the opening of the first seal, which as I continue to tell you, Jesus is the One opening them and are therefore apart of His wrath.
Stop teaching these things! God is not going to put his bride/church through the seals, trumpets or bowl judgments which make up God's wrath/tribulation. We have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. If you think that the church will be here during the times of seals, trumpets and bowls, they you do not understand that God is the One responsible for them and you also don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath.
The Lord is going to keep His promise by removing His church prior to the on-set of His wrath, which begins with the opening of the first seal, which as I continue to tell you, Jesus is the One opening them and are therefore apart of His wrath.
Billyd, while most of the book of Revelation is in sequential form, there are three intermissions in between the 6th (Seal, Trumpet and Bowl(vial) judgements) and the 7th (Seal, Trumpet and Bowl(vial) judgements) that interrupt that sequentiality. They are of different length and they simply take a subject and expand upon it.
This does not mean that if the subject were placed between the 6-7 trumpets, the info within the intermission (for lack of a better term)has to take place within the framework of the trumpet judgements (1-7).
They simply give us insights about the condition of the cosmos, heaven and earth during this era of Post Rapture Gap and Daniel's 70th week.