ENEMIES OF THE CROSS DOCTRINE

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UnderGrace

Senior Member
May 8, 2016
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#21
What is picking up your cross to you?
The context is death, the death of self-effort for salvation.

[SUP]24[/SUP]Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. [SUP]25[/SUP]For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.[SUP][SUP][1]

[/SUP][/SUP]
Jesus was constantly pointing to the way of salvation and Paul explains it further.
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection

Romans 6:4-5

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 2:20
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#22
The context is death, the death of self-effort for salvation.

[SUP]24[/SUP]Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. [SUP]25[/SUP]For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.[SUP][SUP][1]

[/SUP][/SUP]
Jesus was constantly pointing to the way of salvation and Paul explains it further.
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection

Romans 6:4-5

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 2:20
What does "self effort" (as if there could be any other kind of effort) have to do with that? Sometimes dying to one's carnal nature takes tremendous "self effort". Suppose that someone is being tempted by a sin. Is it wrong for that person to exert "self effort" to restrain himself from doing that sin? Self control is "self effort".
 

UnderGrace

Senior Member
May 8, 2016
3,279
184
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#23
Self effort was shortened...the full concept is the effort to save oneself.

One cannot save himself/herself. To believe in the Good News is to stop trying to self oneself, by works, or living under the law and accept His sacrifice, death on our behalf.

In one sense I agree, it does take a change of mind to gets one eyes off oneself and one's own false belief in one's ability to do good works for salvation, and find the narrow gate, which is Jesus and leave our pride and striving behind, and rest in His work and what He accomplished for us.

Grace within the life of the believer is what restrains one from sin.

One crucifies one's pride and lays it all down at the foot of the cross and accepts His sacrifice, as a finished work, on one's behalf.

What does "self effort" (as if there could be any other kind of effort) have to do with that? Sometimes dying to one's carnal nature takes tremendous "self effort". Suppose that someone is being tempted by a sin. Is it wrong for that person to exert "self effort" to restrain himself from doing that sin? Self control is "self effort".
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#24
Self effort was shortened...the full concept is the effort to save oneself.

One cannot save himself/herself. To believe in the Good News is to stop trying to self oneself, by works, or living under the law and accept His sacrifice, death on our behalf.

In one sense I agree, it does take a change of mind to gets one eyes off oneself and one's own false belief in one's ability to do good works for salvation, and find the narrow gate, which is Jesus and leave our pride and striving behind, and rest in His work and what He accomplished for us.

Grace within the life of the believer is what restrains one from sin.

One crucifies one's pride and lays it all down at the foot of the cross and accepts His sacrifice, as a finished work, on one's behalf.
How do you explain this?

Fix [your] attention on yourself and on your teaching. Continue in them, for [by] doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 1 Timothy 4:16

I was disappointed that you didn't answer my question if it was wrong for a person to exert self effort to avoid sinning.
 

UnderGrace

Senior Member
May 8, 2016
3,279
184
63
#25
Okay, let me go back and reread see if I can further clarify and answer your question.

Good scripture, I will have to go back and read it in context.

It will have to wait a few hours though, I have work to do before the work week starts.


How do you explain this?
Fix [your] attention on yourself and on your teaching. Continue in them, for [by] doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 1 Timothy 4:16

I was disappointed that you didn't answer my question if it was wrong for a person to exert self effort to avoid sinning.
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
12,205
337
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#26
​Apply the Cross to the problem and receive grace!!!!!!!

The cross has already been applied to the situation!!! If a person has asked Jesus into their hearts and turned from sin the cross has already been applied. The blood of Christ has been applied by way of the cross. Salvation is as simple as ABC...

Admit you are a sinner. Believe He is Lord. Call on His Name.

​If a person has done this the cross HAS been applied. It doesn't need to be done twice,over and over again. ONCE!!
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
3,385
468
83
Florida
#27
​You believe this because you have fallen from grace. You are being oppressed by Satan (controlled).

I'm pretty sure this is against the TOS

I reported it. I am wondering how much longer this poster is going to be allowed to mouth off at believers with this kind of false condemnation

these Swaggart threads are what is oppressive

Swaggart confessed in 1988 and in 1991 he was AGAIN caught with a prostitute and told people God told him to tell those who were again taken back, that it was none of their business

someone said in another thread they believe Swaggart is a believer.

I have to ask, does a believer continue in overt sexual practices that are in denial of the lives a believer is supposed live?

let alone one who preaches to the world about sinful lives?

the utter hypocrisy is beyond belief and so is his bizarre personal Bible with his comments in red as though they were the words of Jesus

this is beyond just a disagreement...even a very heated one...this message from Swaggart is ANTI-the work of Christ and totally skews the word

time to report this junk until it disappears. it's harmful and young believers or any believers IMO, do not need to address this to a poster who appears to believe he has some kind of authoritative backing here. he doesn't.

this is false teaching being promoted by a false teacher who believes he is the only one who has the whole truth of scripture

this is cultlike preaching by Swaggart and needs to be seen as such
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
3,385
468
83
Florida
#28
Your "modern-day Judaizers" idea is hogwash. It completely obfuscates who the Judaizers were and what they attempted to achieve.

Instead of mixing truth with error, try reading the Bible without someone's commentary on it. Get back to the plain truth.

the problem is that he does not read the Bible

he reads the so called 'expositor's' Bible..the red letter edition...only in this one, the red letters are the words of Swaggart. his posts are rife with copy/pastes from that book. one could use the JW edition with as much effectiveness and truth

Swaggart is prolific throughout his 'expositing' and as I pointed out in another thread, the comments are often enough just plain wrong as where he concluded that heaven is a planet north of earth. and, as I pointed out there, that would be a shame because we are told the planets...the now known universe in fact, is going to be destroyed by fire

this is a silly quote, but it is the serious error and misinterpretation as viewed from the particular poster, that reveals Swaggarts's attempt to whitewash his own sin and posit that we are all equally in the same boat with him

we are not. we do not share Swaggart's guilt or bad conscience
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#29
the problem is that he does not read the Bible

he reads the so called 'expositor's' Bible..the red letter edition...only in this one, the red letters are the words of Swaggart. his posts are rife with copy/pastes from that book. one could use the JW edition with as much effectiveness and truth

Swaggart is prolific throughout his 'expositing' and as I pointed out in another thread, the comments are often enough just plain wrong as where he concluded that heaven is a planet north of earth. and, as I pointed out there, that would be a shame because we are told the planets...the now known universe in fact, is going to be destroyed by fire

this is a silly quote, but it is the serious error and misinterpretation as viewed from the particular poster, that reveals Swaggarts's attempt to whitewash his own sin and posit that we are all equally in the same boat with him

we are not. we do not share Swaggart's guilt or bad conscience
I don't keep up with Swaggert, but I can't find anything wrong with a commentary he wrote that was copy/pasted into another thread. He was standing against the excesses of the faith movement when it first started. I was very impressed with an article he wrote on that 25-30 years ago.
 
Sep 3, 2016
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#30
I'm pretty sure this is against the TOS

I reported it. I am wondering how much longer this poster is going to be allowed to mouth off at believers with this kind of false condemnation

these Swaggart threads are what is oppressive

Swaggart confessed in 1988 and in 1991 he was AGAIN caught with a prostitute and told people God told him to tell those who were again taken back, that it was none of their business

someone said in another thread they believe Swaggart is a believer.

I have to ask, does a believer continue in overt sexual practices that are in denial of the lives a believer is supposed live?

let alone one who preaches to the world about sinful lives?

the utter hypocrisy is beyond belief and so is his bizarre personal Bible with his comments in red as though they were the words of Jesus

this is beyond just a disagreement...even a very heated one...this message from Swaggart is ANTI-the work of Christ and totally skews the word

time to report this junk until it disappears. it's harmful and young believers or any believers IMO, do not need to address this to a poster who appears to believe he has some kind of authoritative backing here. he doesn't.

this is false teaching being promoted by a false teacher who believes he is the only one who has the whole truth of scripture

this is cultlike preaching by Swaggart and needs to be seen as such
Matthew 6:14-16 New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. [SUP]15 [/SUP]But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
3,385
468
83
Florida
#31
Matthew 6:14-16 New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. [SUP]15 [/SUP]But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
I see

so it is ok to just keep on sinning then?

honestly, it is just really interesting the way you will change what you say depending on what is posted
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
5,304
733
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#32
I see

so it is ok to just keep on sinning then?

honestly, it is just really interesting the way you will change what you say depending on what is posted
There's no danger of consistency here. :)
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
3,385
468
83
Florida
#33
I don't keep up with Swaggert, but I can't find anything wrong with a commentary he wrote that was copy/pasted into another thread. He was standing against the excesses of the faith movement when it first started. I was very impressed with an article he wrote on that 25-30 years ago.
and just think

25 or so years ago, he was visiting prostitutes

standing against the excesses of the faith movement while comitting adultery, fornication and who knows what else

I don't care what he was preaching. he was living a double life and someone who can do that while pretending to be 'all that' for Christ just is not an example to follow
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
3,385
468
83
Florida
#34
I don't keep up with Swaggert, but I can't find anything wrong with a commentary he wrote that was copy/pasted into another thread. He was standing against the excesses of the faith movement when it first started. I was very impressed with an article he wrote on that 25-30 years ago.

maybe small potatoes here, in light of all the other aberrations in Swaggart's renderings, but what do you think of his saying that both God and the Holy Spirit have bodies?

does scripture support that?

does the word 'spirit' have some kind of double meaning?
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#35
maybe small potatoes here, in light of all the other aberrations in Swaggart's renderings, but what do you think of his saying that both God and the Holy Spirit have bodies?

does scripture support that?

does the word 'spirit' have some kind of double meaning?
No, that's weird.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#36
and just think

25 or so years ago, he was visiting prostitutes

standing against the excesses of the faith movement while comitting adultery, fornication and who knows what else

I don't care what he was preaching. he was living a double life and someone who can do that while pretending to be 'all that' for Christ just is not an example to follow
I was wrong about the date. The article was written 35-36 years ago. Here it is so you can judge for yourself.

https://www.francesandfriends.com/js/hyper-faith-new-gnosticism1.html
https://www.francesandfriends.com/js/hyper-faith-new-gnosticism2.html
https://www.francesandfriends.com/js/hyper-faith-new-gnosticism3.html
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#37

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
3,385
468
83
Florida
#38
well I remember what you said previously regarding that, but how does that excuse his behavior?

I mean it's pretty clear that our life is what testifies of our actual faith and not what we say. right?

as it is, he apparently was involved with prostitutes for over 20 years when he was caught in '88...his own words

how long did he entertain the thoughts before he acted on them?

his life was a lie.

as it is, his expository Bible is his own version much like the JW's have their own 'translation' different from everyone elses

bit of a mess I think

Swaggart also states, regarding his 'revelation' that no one else has seen what the sees and that it is directly from God

in other words, no one but him has ever understood the cross...he literally says this
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#39
well I remember what you said previously regarding that, but how does that excuse his behavior?

I mean it's pretty clear that our life is what testifies of our actual faith and not what we say. right?

as it is, he apparently was involved with prostitutes for over 20 years when he was caught in '88...his own words
I really don't know anything about the man, and I don't care to know. He has to answer to GOD. From reading that article, he seemed to have good discernment and sound doctrine.
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
3,385
468
83
Florida
#40
I really don't know anything about the man, and I don't care to know. He has to answer to GOD. From reading that article, he seemed to have good discernment and sound doctrine.

we all do what we do before God without doubt

since scripture states we shall know the validity of a person by their 'fruit' I think anyone claiming to be sent from God, as Swaggart claims, should have a life that exemplifies someone led by the Holy Spirit and not a spirit of lust

as his expositor's Bible is his current expression of what he believes and full of contradictory interpretations with regards to context and so on, I would conclude he seems to be approaching cult status. he believes everyone but him is wrong and expresses that thought in the form of a supposed new revelation about the cross...which is really not new, however he has parked his camper there instead of going forward. according to him, no one has ever understood what he understands

I would never give the man a 2nd thought and never did except for the posts springing up in the forum

no questions allowed is not a good thing. telling people they are not saved etc, as the op does, is his opinion extracted from Swaggarts' Bible