Eternal salvation and Ironside

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R

RadioU

Guest
#1
Recently it was brought to my atttention that many believers are giving up some of the values of the christian faith such as the Once Saved Always saved doctrine. I wanted to address the eternal salvation issue because I feel that it is necessary for every beliver to take a stand on what they believe and to do so with a good biblical base. Dr. Harry Ironside has written what I consider the best paper on the subject. He takes in all questions, and scriptures that people try to use to refute the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine and show how the bible does not say anything but that once a believer is saved they are saved forever. If anyone truly wishes to decide where they stand and want to actually take this up cc mail me with your email address and i will send you the paper. If not then please do not make negative remarks. Christians should build eachother up, and if you would be willing to make a disagreeing remark than i would hope that you would have read this paper and would be trying to show how Dr. Harry Ironside was wrong in how he interpreted scripture. Thank you.


[SIZE=+2]Eternal Security of the Believer[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]By Dr. Harry Ironside[/SIZE]
 
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thefightinglamb

Guest
#2
I have come to believe that this debate over OSAS or perservering is really a confusion of understanding.

If you believe you are saved, then that does NOT necessarily mean you are saved. So the question becomes if you believe you are saved, how are you to know if you are not just deceived into 'thinking you are saved'?

This is a hard realization. And though must people who believe themselves saved will never ask themselves if they may be deceived, the Bible clearly teaches that at heaven's gates there will be those who thought themselves saved and weren't.

So as the OSAS belief works it is probably 100% true...but as those who aren't saved are probably among those who believed themselves saved and were't/aren't then it is understandably false.

The link does not seem to work. I will try to find it.

God bless
tony
 
S

Saint

Guest
#3
so, i've done some research, and have come to my conclusion, but i haven't seen that paper. why, by the way, did you not just put it on this thread instead of sending it to our emails? i've already sent my request to you, so i hope i get it soon.
 
R

RadioU

Guest
#4
the reason i did not post it is becasue it is much to long to post on a thread and i did not want a bunch of debate on the thread, simply people who wanted to read the paper and respond to me.
 
Jun 29, 2010
398
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#5
OSAS is a very dangerous false doctrine that has bore nothing but bad fruit
 
S

Saint

Guest
#6
OSAS is a very dangerous false doctrine that has bore nothing but bad fruit
that is a statement, not an argument. not to say that i don't agree with you, but i'll post my reasoning below.
 
S

Saint

Guest
#7
Alright, i guess i'll start out with the paper's talk aout Romans 8:38-39. He states that nothing can separate us from God's love, so how can we be unsaved? well, let's look at some scripture: Jesus loves everyone, including sinners (unsaved) and we can find that fact in Romans 5:8. Just because He loves us, that doesn't mean we love Him, or that we will be saved. And regardless, Isaiah 59:2 tells us that sin separates us from God's face so that He won't hear us. It also says that we are separated from Him. Now, looking at the paper, i believe that someone who believes in it would say that the people refered to in that verse weren't true followers, but notice the wording of that verse: "your iniquities have separated you from your God" how could He be their God if they did not believe in Him?

I also caught some speculation from the paper that shows that the writer was telling the Word so that it might fit into his opinion. For instance, he claimed that the Book of Life and the Lamb's Book of Life are completely different, which would have been fine if he had used Scriptual evidence. So i'm going to throw that out until that evidence is shown. And I will also talk about Psalm 69:28 where blotting out the names of the people in the Book of Life is mentioned, this shows that you can be blotted out.

That speculation brings me to a few points where he misread the Bible. He mentions Hebrews 6:4-6, saying that that verse proves him correct, not incorrect, because it says that it is impossible to fall if you've been saved. Well, let's reread those verses to show what it really means: 4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. well, let's take away the appositive at the beginning of verse 6 for a second. now we have the verse saying that it is impossible for a saved person to repent, right? wrong, it says "brought to repentence" or in other words, for someone to bring him there, or for God to bring him there, because from then on, it is up to the sinner to do so. now, let's look at that lovely appositive: if they fall away, now notice that it doesn't say if the impossible happens that they were to fall away, it says IF they fall away, which obviously means that it is possible.

Alright, now let's move on to Hebrews 10:26 which tells us that if we delibrately keep on sinning after we've received the knowledge of the truth, there are no sacrifices left for us. OK, so obviously the first argument is going to be "just because you know the truth, doesn't mean you believe it" well, it doesn't say that once you know the truth, it says once you have received or in other words, accepted, the truth. but you might call that speculation, well even if it is, let's look at it as if it simply means once someone has told you the truth and you haven't accepted it, well, that goes against the fact that Jesus taught the truth and was still persecuted, and even crucified, but He begged for their forgiveness, not fearful expectation of judgement.

And, of course, what of the unpardinalbe sin? Every non-Christian denies the Holy Spirit, every single one. so have all of us commited the unpardinable sin? well that would certainly make the crucifiction pointless. so what is that refering to? it must be refering to Christians who deny the Holy Spirit, but that would mean that they would be unsaved after they were saved, which goes against your beliefs.

Now let's look at Romans 10:9- That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is LORD," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. so notice that the definition for salvation is confessing that Jesus is LORD and believing in His resurection in your heart. well, plenty of people do this and fall away. For instance, when I was younger, I believed and confessed that Jesus is Lord, I knew in depths of my heart that God raised Him from the dead, but I still sinned and didn't care. so you see, when Dr. Ironside said that someone who is saved cannot sin without feeling remorse, well that is not only incorrect, but it doesn't address unintentional sins that are counted against us. Actually, the interesting part about unintentional sins is that those who commit one sin, are guilty of every sin. where do i get this? James 2:10 which says it much better than i, when it says that if someone who keeps the whole law, and yet stumbles at just one point, is guilty of all. Now no one here has ever stumbled intentionally, i don't think. and so if that unintentional sin doesn't condemn us, or if any amount of intentional sins can keep us from being saved after we've been saved, then what's the purpose of repentence? why would God command us to repent if, once we've been saved, we never have to repent again? and more importantly, why would Satan try to tempt us to sin, if that sin doesn't separate us from God (as Isaiah 7:9 states? and as Galations 5:19-21 refers to)?

Now, why does Jude 20 and 21 tell command us to build upon ourselves (which only gives us rewards and has nothing to do with being saved) and to keep ourselves in God's love (which we can't be separated from)? Why did Jesus get onto 5 or 6 churches for having sin with them? if a church (which is a people, not a building) can become corrupt, then how can a people (Christians) not sin?

Why can fruitless people be cast into hell? or even better, what of the parable where 2 people were forgiven, meaning that they were SAVED. and then one of them did not forgive someone else, and in the end the guy who was FORGIVEN was thrown into the darkness where there is gnashing of teeth (Hell)

Now, he also talked about 2 Peter 2:20-22, but he really corrupted what those verses said. apparantly, because it said dog instead of sheep, it was refering to non-Christians. that is an incredible reach, mainly because it says that we are ONLY sheep, and obviously we are sheep, children, brothers, desciples, friends, members of the Body, pots, etc... so why can't we be dogs or sows when we become foolish? So i'm going to keep that as refering to Christians, using the evidence that the persons he was refering to "knew the ways of righteousness" and so i will point out that it says that it would be better if they had sinned before they were saved. so why would that be true if that sin was forgiven in advance as Dr. Ironhide suggests?

Also, why does 2 Timothy 2:12 tell us that if we deny Him (which we can't do unless we know Him, and we can only know Him if we obey His commandments and love one another (1John 2:4) and why must we stand firm in our faith as Isaiah 7:9 tells us? And why should we rebuke our brother? i mean if our brother is going to go to heaven no matter what, then why should i bother to rebuke him? Why does Mark 8:36 tell us that we can forfeit our soul? why does Galations 5:1 say that we shouldn't burdern ourselves again? and if faith by itself saves us, then why is faith without works dead? and also, how could the sheep (and Dr. Ironside tells us that sheep are Christians) leave the flock? why did Christ have to persue that sheep, if the sheep, once saved, is always saved?

And finally, as I end this, I'll look at the beginning, let's look at Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were sinless, believed in God wholly and fully, and in more ways then any of us will, they were with God in a similar way as to the way we will when we are in Heaven, and yet, they delibrately sinned, and were cast out.

I hope you read the entire thing, i know it is long, but so is the Bible and so is the paper you sent.
 
D

dkajflkda

Guest
#8
I think Saint has made a very proving argument and I am curious to see the rebuttle to this I will probably post more when I see the rebuttle.
 
S

Saint

Guest
#9
Oh, and we are taught to pray by Jesus Himself like this, "Our Father in Heaven... forgive us our debts..." So why would Jesus tell us that our "model prayer" would involve asking for forgiveness? especially since they were in the middle of a conversation as to how people who are already saved should pray.
 
S

Saint

Guest
#10
soo... did you read it?
 
May 21, 2009
3,955
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#11
Another post of a poster posting saying if you don't agree with me you have no rights to post??????????????????????????
 
S

Saint

Guest
#12
Another post of a poster posting saying if you don't agree with me you have no rights to post??????????????????????????
i think you can post, but you might not get a reply
 
R

RadioU

Guest
#13
Saint- sorry for the lateness in my reply, however i am currently busy with some things and often only get on once a day, if that. i will reply to what you have posted once i get a chance to throughly read it. Please have paitence with me

- Thanks
 
T

thefightinglamb

Guest
#14
Today at midweek service, we were in John 7: 25-70.

As I was reading, this verse stuck out to me as relevant to this discussion.

John 7: 66
From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.


I wonder if some people would claim that these disciples were still saved? because they once followed Jesus and Jesus would never let them go?

Sometimes I think it comes down to another thing the pastor talked about today. Sometimes people preach a different Jesus than the true Jesus. Sometimes people make God 'everything they want him to be' and forget to discover who He truly is.

Just thoughts again

God bless
tony
 
S

Saint

Guest
#15
Saint- sorry for the lateness in my reply, however i am currently busy with some things and often only get on once a day, if that. i will reply to what you have posted once i get a chance to throughly read it. Please have paitence with me

- Thanks
oops, sorry. I thought you were ignoring me. My bad. I will try to have more patience in the future.

Today at midweek service, we were in John 7: 25-70.

As I was reading, this verse stuck out to me as relevant to this discussion.

John 7: 66
From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.


I wonder if some people would claim that these disciples were still saved? because they once followed Jesus and Jesus would never let them go?

Sometimes I think it comes down to another thing the pastor talked about today. Sometimes people preach a different Jesus than the true Jesus. Sometimes people make God 'everything they want him to be' and forget to discover who He truly is.

Just thoughts again

God bless
tony
The paper gave an explanation for that one, saying that they weren't truly saved or they would have continued working with God. I see how they could think that, but it goes against the basic philosophy that people change.
 
T

thefightinglamb

Guest
#16
I found where Ironside talked about it:


What about John 6:66? “From that time many of His disciples went back, and walked no more with Him.”
That has happened down through the centuries. Jesus distinguishes between a disciple and “a disciple indeed,” or between one who is only a disciple and one who is a true believer. The Greek word translated “disciple” means “a pupil” or “a learner.” There were many who up to a certain point learned of Jesus, and they were learning more and more every day as they listened to Him. But when He declared, “Whoso eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, hath eternal life” (John 6:54), they said, “That is too much for us; we are not going on with this man,” and they went back. It was not a question there of whether people were born again and lost, but whether they who had been numbered among the learners would go on learning and let Him be their teacher, or whether they would refuse further instruction and turn back. We are not told that even those who turned back ever again returned.

I think my statement still stands though, like you said, he believes they were never truly "his disciples"...

But as I highlighted the text explicitly said, "his disciples". If the Bible is believed to be true, it could have easily said "false disciples turned back". So, as I said, "I think its a case of the individual trying to decide what or who God is (what the Bible says) instead of letting God and the Bible reveal themselves to the individual.

God bless
tony
 
S

Saint

Guest
#17
I think my statement still stands though, like you said, he believes they were never truly "his disciples"...

But as I highlighted the text explicitly said, "his disciples". If the Bible is believed to be true, it could have easily said "false disciples turned back". So, as I said, "I think its a case of the individual trying to decide what or who God is (what the Bible says) instead of letting God and the Bible reveal themselves to the individual.
my thoughts exactly
 
S

Saint

Guest
#18
oh, and Paul spent a good deal in a chapter in Romans (7) talking about sin and how upset he was that he was fighting it. Paul was an apostle, so obviously he was truly saved, so why should he worry about sin, if he will stay saved forever?
 
P

paulnsilas

Guest
#19
Recently it was brought to my atttention that many believers are giving up some of the values of the christian faith such as the Once Saved Always saved doctrine. I wanted to address the eternal salvation issue because I feel that it is necessary for every beliver to take a stand on what they believe and to do so with a good biblical base. Dr. Harry Ironside has written what I consider the best paper on the subject. He takes in all questions, and scriptures that people try to use to refute the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine and show how the bible does not say anything but that once a believer is saved they are saved forever. If anyone truly wishes to decide where they stand and want to actually take this up cc mail me with your email address and i will send you the paper. If not then please do not make negative remarks. Christians should build eachother up, and if you would be willing to make a disagreeing remark than i would hope that you would have read this paper and would be trying to show how Dr. Harry Ironside was wrong in how he interpreted scripture. Thank you.


[SIZE=+2]Eternal Security of the Believer[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]By Dr. Harry Ironside[/SIZE]
"You may never be able to forget the years of wandering, the many sins of which you have been guilty and continue to commit, but that which gives peace is the knowledge that God will never recall them again. He has blotted them from the book of His remembrance and He has done it in righteousness for the account is completely settled, the debt is paid," Doc Ironside
 
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thefightinglamb

Guest
#20
"If his sons forget my law,
and do not follow my statutes;
If they violate my decrees,
and fail to keep my commands...
I will punish their sin with the rod,
and their iniquity with flogging;
but I WILL NOT take my love from them,
nor will I ever betray my faithfulness.
I have sworn by my holiness,
and I will not lie to David."
--from Psalm 89 (NIV)

In case I was being overly heavy on perservering, I also believe this is true (because the Bible says so--and I do believe this time has happened since Jesus' death). I think we need to remember that without perservering you cannot be saved--NOT because perservering saves us but because perservering is an 'undeniable characteristic' of those who are truly saved, while those who are false will eventually fall away.

So hold on to God's promises in one hand and perservere to follow him with the other--thus those who are truly his disciples now are known.

Sorry if this seems a bit contradictory to previous posts...As I said I do fully believe in both OSAS (when someone is truly saved, hence the circular argument if God knows someone is going to heaven then they are going to heaven) and also that those who are truly saved will perservere and leave sin/darkness behind.

God bless
tony