Eternal Security Promotes Sin?

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Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,157
458
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#1
My friend Oleg wrote this and he's very good at articulating his thoughts. I agree with a lot of it. Curious on your thoughts. :)

It's basically a conversation of asking questions, things we can ask ourselves to see if we agree or disagree with his logical progression. One reason I like this is because God does build line upon line. So if we haven't agreed with a prior truth, there is nowhere for the next truth to be built upon. I believe going through step-by-step receiving truth gives us greater understanding of Scripture on a heart not just a head level. And what believe in our heart we see in our actions.

So starting from the beginning for us to begin to analyze our logical frameworks about the gospel.

- Do you believe that Jesus took the sins of the humankind on the cross?
- Of course
- Do you think that he did that only for people who lived before and during his time?
- Well, he did it for all humans
- So then, he did bear the sins of the people who weren't even born during his time, right? Like you and I?
- (Discomfort begins to set in), Well technically yes, but ...
- It's a simple Yes or No question. Did he or didn't be?
- Fine, he did
- So then, when you commit a sin today - is that legally covered by the cross of Calvary if you are in Christ?
- Yes, but wouldn't this give you a license to sin?
- If you know your wife would never leave you no matter what, wouldn't that give you a license to sleep with other women?
- Well, it's not the same
- It's pretty close. According to that logic, the "till death separates us" part of your wedding vows is essentially an automatic permission for you to commit adultery. Your wife's faithfulness to you doesn't give you an automatic license to be faithless to her. Or does it?
- No. I never looked at it this way, I guess.
- Well, that's exactly the problem. We think God's ways are so much higher than our ways that God becomes humanly unrelatable. So, getting back to it. What's keeping you from sleeping with women other than your wife?
- The fact that I love her.
- Exactly. The fact that you've separated yourself from others for her. That commitment expressed in your separation unto your wife is called "holiness". But we are not talking about holiness right now. We are talking about legal justification.
- I didn't know those things were different.
- Well, most Christians don't see that difference, and that's why we are having this discussion. So then, getting back to justification. If you are in Christ and you committed a sin - did Jesus bear it?
- Yes?
- Did he pay for it on the cross?
- Yes
- Did he die for it?
- Sure
- Did God pronounced the verdict "paid in full" on Christ - and did that for sins that weren't his own but were mine and yours?
- He did
- What is the evidence that Jesus paid in full for all those sins?
- In the fact that Jesus was resurrected from the dead.
- Then was your particular sin paid for in full by Christ?
- It was
- What's the evidence that it is still considered paid in full?
- The fact that Christ is alive today
- Can you trust Jesus to stay alive?
- Of course
- Can you trust God to keep his end of the deal?
- Sure
- Does God faithfulness make it OK for you to sin?
- Of course not. This question shouldn't even come up.
- Exactly! If we think that it's OK for us to sin if we won't be legally liable for it, what does it tell about us?
- That we believe what someone said about us: we are born criminals, and that we are only in it for a free out of jail card. And that aside from that, there isn't much else.
- And who says that we are born criminals, and that all we can expect is a free out of jail card?
- Most Christians that I've talked to seem to think that. That's basically what they told me the Gospel was all about. Maybe we should stop telling people that God sees them as being born criminals, and that he sees Christians as conditional parolees.
- Maybe we should. First Christians indoctrinate each other into the wrong identity, then they wonder why people behave in accordance with the identity into which they have indoctrinated one another, and then they change to Gospel to fit with that picture.
 

mcubed

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2013
1,449
202
63
#2
Anyone who thinks we get a license to sin does not know the "love" of G-d. Have you ever loved someone? If you have you do not want to hurt them. That is Salvation! I fell in love with my Savior, and while I'm not sin free, I will not on purpose sin against Him out of LOVE not FEAR of losing my Salvation!!!
 

Blain

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
14,704
528
113
#3
I have never understood the thought process that we have a free ticket to sin as please. I have a situation that may add to your friends thought process. Now Stephanie and I for moment are physically miles away, she is on Arizona and I am in Oklahoma, even after she and I began dating I have on several occasions been asked to either date another girl or do an act against my love for Stephanie with the whole she will never know thing. These women clearly did not understand how my love for Stephanie is, my honor to her heart forbade me to even consider doing any such thing just because she would most likely never find out.

Simply because we can do something doesn't mean it's ok, and in the same sense just because our sins are paid for our love for him and our honor to his heart forbids us from sinning as we please not because it has anything to do with being righteous but because the love in our hearts refuses to allow it.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
6,152
793
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#4
Eternal Security Promotes Sin?
We hear this fallacy repeated over and over again. But it is still a fallacy.

TITUS 2
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Christians should understand (1) that there is a spiritual battle raging at all times and (2) Satan hates to see that Christians are secure in their salvation.

So essentially, this is an attack on the Gospel.
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
437
242
43
#5
The fear of the Lord produces the fruit of righteousness. There is no such thing as a guaranteed eternal security. There is a false security and a false peace however....very popular in fact.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#6
I hate this plodding approach to teaching. IMO it's often used as a manipulation tool to string people along with deceptive wording that shuts down the ability to do comprehensive analysis. I couldn't even finish it was so tedious that I scrolled to the end, and sure enough there it was - the tell, the giveaway. Identity. Anytime someone uses this language the odds are very great that you are dealing with a hyper-grace teacher.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
456
83
#7
The fear of the Lord produces the fruit of righteousness. There is no such thing as a guaranteed eternal security. There is a false security and a false peace however....very popular in fact.
Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14) Which is the earnest [guarantee] of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

2 Cor 1:
22) Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest [guarantee] of the Spirit in our hearts.
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
437
242
43
#8
Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14) Which is the earnest [guarantee] of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

2 Cor 1:
22) Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest [guarantee] of the Spirit in our hearts.

The aravon...or "earnest" of the Spirit is from the Hebrew and means a token or pledge of something promised IF the conditions are met. So then Jesus died for us...and given us a pledge of life ...if we lay down our lives for Him in return. That is the new covenant. A Life for a life. He gives us all He has first...in order to encourage us to give Him all we have.

But people are led astray into thinking that God expects nothing in return for grace. God demands ALL...for His all. That is all! :)
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
456
83
#9
The aravon...or "earnest" of the Spirit is from the Hebrew and means a token or pledge of something promised IF the conditions are met. So then Jesus died for us...and given us a pledge of life ...if we lay down our lives for Him in return. That is the new covenant. A Life for a life. He gives us all He has first...in order to encourage us to give Him all we have.

But people are led astray into thinking that God expects nothing in return for grace. God demands ALL...for His all. That is all! :)
The conditions for salvation are to confess Jesus Christ as Lord and to believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead (Rom 10:9-10). We are not saved by works, but by faith in Jesus Christ (Eph 2:8-9). When a person does that, he is sealed unto the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
2,254
225
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#10
I agree, Cee, that proper teaching and understanding of Christ's work on the cross will not promote sinning. It will cultivate a deep love for God which will result in a person desiring from the heart to do the will of God.

Where I disagree with your friend Oleg's dialogue (or maybe I should say what he missed) is this: Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, yes! But this is given only to those who are believing in him. When a believer sins, the blood of Christ forgives that sin - it is gone! Praise the Lord! He paid the price in full!

But when an unbeliever sins, that sin is not forgiven. In fact, it takes only one sin to separate from God - the wages of sin is death!

To teach that "once a person is saved they will always be saved - and thus all of their sins will automatically have been forgiven even before they commit them" is misleading at best and can be very dangerous. People who hear and believe this can say a "sinner's prayer" and then believe that they are secure for life! Many who do this were never really "born again" at all by saying the "sinner's prayer". Does this happen? It sure does. I am running into more and more people in our day who say this and live this way: "I am a Christian and it does not really matter how I live and it is not even important to talk about it - the blood of Christ covers my sins!"
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
437
242
43
#11
The conditions for salvation are to confess Jesus Christ as Lord and to believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead (Rom 10:9-10). We are not saved by works, but by faith in Jesus Christ (Eph 2:8-9). When a person does that, he is sealed unto the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

Saved from the second death...yes. But saved to what? To glory? To shame?

2 Tim. 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
456
83
#12
Saved from the second death...yes. But saved to what? To glory? To shame?

2 Tim. 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.
Nobody is saved "to shame". Some Christians will no doubt be ashamed at Christ's return, realizing they could have and should have done more. But you are reading into scripture when you think that people will be saved yet spend eternity in "outer darkness", away from God.
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
437
242
43
#13
Nobody is saved "to shame". Some Christians will no doubt be ashamed at Christ's return, realizing they could have and should have done more. But you are reading into scripture when you think that people will be saved yet spend eternity in "outer darkness", away from God.

I think you are more reading the truth out of the scriptures...

Jude 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;


13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#14
The fear of the Lord produces the fruit of righteousness. There is no such thing as a guaranteed eternal security. There is a false security and a false peace however....very popular in fact.
He did not give us a spirit of fear but of a sound mind, And a spirit of Adoption whereby we cry out Abba Father.

If we do not have eternal security, both of these passages have no meaning, are false and have no basis of fact.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#15
The aravon...or "earnest" of the Spirit is from the Hebrew and means a token or pledge of something promised IF the conditions are met. So then Jesus died for us...and given us a pledge of life ...if we lay down our lives for Him in return. That is the new covenant. A Life for a life. He gives us all He has first...in order to encourage us to give Him all we have.

But people are led astray into thinking that God expects nothing in return for grace. God demands ALL...for His all. That is all! :)
Jesus met the conditions. Its called the cross.

Paul tells us in eph, once we have heard the word. And rtrusted the word. We are sealed wsth the spirit, He gave only one condition. It is called the day of redemption. As he said, we are sealed UNTIL the day of redemption. If there was any other condition, he would have plainly stated it here.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#16
Saved from the second death...yes. But saved to what? To glory? To shame?

2 Tim. 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.
If your saved from the second death, You are saved in honor, whicih is given to the son, You could never earn any honor for yourself in thge first place. Not can you earn eternal life. It is not a conditiona.l clause, it is a statement of fact. You have passed from death to life. This life lasting eternally (eternal life)
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#17
I think you are more reading the truth out of the scriptures...

Jude 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;


13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Jude speaks of those who turn grace to licentiousness, Whose final state was preordained before hand. Not of people who found God and turned to licentiousness.

He who sins (lives a licentious lifestyle) as john said, has never seen God or known him.
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
437
242
43
#18
Jude speaks of those who turn grace to licentiousness, Whose final state was preordained before hand. Not of people who found God and turned to licentiousness.

He who sins (lives a licentious lifestyle) as john said, has never seen God or known him.
Have you never sinned since coming to Christ? Have you never been moved by some wind of doctrine?
 
Mar 14, 2011
53,317
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#19
Have you never sinned since coming to Christ? Have you never been moved by some wind of doctrine?
Can you understand what licentiousness means? When did I ever claim to be sinless? And finally. Did John lie?

1 john 3: 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Now, either John is a liar. Or he is not talking about never sinning, but living a life or, or practicing sin.

Which is it?
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
437
242
43
#20
Can you understand what licentiousness means? When did I ever claim to be sinless? And finally. Did John lie?

1 john 3: 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Now, either John is a liar. Or he is not talking about never sinning, but living a life or, or practicing sin.

Which is it?

What about the sin of the Pharisees...wasn't that kind of sin worse than what is practiced by the lawless licentious types. Are you justifying yourself by what others do that you don't?