Eternal Security: What do you do with James 2?

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Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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In Matthew 3:13, we read that Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?” 15 But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him. Baptism is a work of righteousness and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done.. (Titus 3:5)

What's good is rewarded and what's bad is burned up. 1 Corinthians 3:11 - For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

You seem more focused on what YOU do rather than what Jesus has already DONE. You also must not confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture. Common error made by works-salvationists.

If one reads Romans 2:6-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages of scriptures, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we obtain salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of our salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. Also see (Romans 4:5-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Genuine Christians/believers are in the right group. "Nominal" Christians/make believers are in the wrong group. There are many people who trust in works for salvation and not in Christ alone that believe they are genuine Christians but will be surprised at the judgment. (Matthew 7:22-23)
genuine Christians lol they believe Christ the lord , and this judgement you mean based on what we do or don’t do ?

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:

but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31-32, 34-46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

is Jesus now not understanding things ?

what’s the only difference in those two groups ? Both call Him lord

one group acted in love towards others they did the deeds he taught them to do and didn’t realize they were loving him in deed and truth by loving others in deed and truth

thier actions determine entrance into his kingdom or thier lack of actions lead to satans doom

but I’m curious why this one will be explained as not relevant

Paul certainly confirms it clearly

“Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

to keep insisting the evils of doing good works is just a blindness it’s not going to change we’re going to be judged by our deeds when we come into Christ one way or the other so we should repent , get baptized for remission of sins like he said , and start acting in love towards others with our deeds or “ works “

paul
Insisted on this being a continual doctrine for good reason

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Is Paul confused also ? He’s saying believers should constantly affirm that when we believe we should be careful to maintain good works and says the us is a faithful saying but I’m in suspense of the shape of the circle around it
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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James has always been my least favorite book, but after reading some posts here, Im getting a different picture. Perhaps James is just describing one that has not been lifed from above? I guess a reading again is needful.

But…..a very important truth. The born again believer is no longer an impure person in the sight of God. Perhaps Father looks at us in our pre God nature with eyes of faith in His own power to transform us through His sacrifice of His Son? Don’t know. Anyway, we are no longer just a human but a spiritual person, capable of spiritual works and giftings. Plus faith that always please Him.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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James has always been my least favorite book, but after reading some posts here, Im getting a different picture. Perhaps James is just describing one that has not been lifed from above? I guess a reading again is needful.

But…..a very important truth. The born again believer is no longer an impure person in the sight of God. Perhaps Father looks at us in our pre God nature with eyes of faith in His own power to transform us through His sacrifice of His Son? Don’t know. Anyway, we are no longer just a human but a spiritual person, capable of spiritual works and giftings. Plus faith that always please Him.
James has always been my least favorite book, but after reading some posts here, Im getting a different picture. Perhaps James is just describing one that has not been lifed from above? I guess a reading again is needful.

But…..a very important truth. The born again believer is no longer an impure person in the sight of God. Perhaps Father looks at us in our pre God nature with eyes of faith in His own power to transform us through His sacrifice of His Son? Don’t know. Anyway, we are no longer just a human but a spiritual person, capable of spiritual works and giftings. Plus faith that always please Him.
James has always been my least favorite book, but after reading some posts here, Im getting a different picture. Perhaps James is just describing one that has not been lifed from above? I guess a reading again is needful.

But…..a very important truth. The born again believer is no longer an impure person in the sight of God. Perhaps Father looks at us in our pre God nature with eyes of faith in His own power to transform us through His sacrifice of His Son? Don’t know. Anyway, we are no longer just a human but a spiritual person, capable of spiritual works and giftings. Plus faith that always please Him.
james letter is about the born again believer every letter on the New Testament is written by the church for the church

“Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God sees our deeds our thoughts motivations infact every aspect of who we are is open to his sight both good and bad faith isn’t what excuses us from doing the right thkngs it’s meant to make us able and willing to do the right things . It’s not a substitute for what we do it’s meant to bring repentance and obedience so we can have our sins remitted and learn as children what to do
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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lol Yeah I’ve said several times faith has to come first , but if we don’t do the works faith brings us to is my point.

to be clear again , we need to have faith first and faith can only come from here

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so again the circle of how I’m putting “ the cart before the horse “ isn’t relevant I’ve said all along gotta have faith first , but I’ve posed this several times and you continually corcle around it what happens if we don’t then do the works Gods word sets before us ??????

you are going in such large circles but it’s a simple question once you hear Gods word and believe , what happens if you refuse to do what he said will save us ? Can faith save if we don’t actually do the things he tells us to do ?
again not saying we don’t have faith first so you can bag that argument
Are you saying that faith does not save us? Something more is needed? Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. So how many works must you accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save you? Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28)
 

mailmandan

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Apr 7, 2014
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mom focused on what Gods word says for us to do and I’m not willing to spin huge ditches explaining it away is what you are perceiving

faith comes from what Jesus said so when you have faith you are going to come to what you do, faith isn’t what excuses a person from doing what he said will save us , it’s what brings us into doing those things

so yeah you should be concerned with what you do also because like me you have to do this

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Would be foolish to not consider our actions as important the doctrine your speaking sounds like this and seems about as effective

See 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 again.

Now there is a difference in doing God's will in order to become saved:

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

AND doing God's will after we have been saved:

1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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genuine Christians lol they believe Christ the lord , and this judgement you mean based on what we do or don’t do ?

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:

but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31-32, 34-46‬ ‭KJV‬‬
After a casual reading of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), these verses "on the surface" may seem to suggest that salvation is the result of good works. Yet scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works. That would be contrary to Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc... One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. This is not performance based salvation, but salvation based performance.

The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are merely the fruit that will be manifest in the lives of the sheep. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because of the imputed righteousness of God by faith (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof) and not simply on faith from which these works follow. So it is understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress the works done in love (faith works through love - Galatians 5:6) which are a manifestation of faith by which one receives eternal life.

*Notice how love for other Christians is an indication of one's salvation status: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is "of God" not to become of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

what’s the only difference in those two groups ?
Both call Him lord
One group is made up of sheep and the other group is made up of goats. Their actions correspond to their nature.

one group acted in love towards others they did the deeds he taught them to do and didn’t realize they were loving him in deed and truth by loving others in deed and truth
Love is what sheep do by nature. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

thier actions determine entrance into his kingdom or thier lack of actions lead to satans doom
Their actions demonstrate their faith or lack of faith. Without faith it's impossible to please God. (Hebrews 11:6)

but I’m curious why this one will be explained as not relevant
You continue to confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture.

Paul certainly confirms it clearly
“Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

to keep insisting the evils of doing good works is just a blindness it’s not going to change we’re going to be judged by our deeds when we come into Christ one way or the other so we should repent , get baptized for remission of sins like he said , and start acting in love towards others with our deeds or “ works “

paul
Insisted on this being a continual doctrine for good reason

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬
I already covered all of this with you. Did you read post #197?

Is Paul confused also ? He’s saying believers should constantly affirm that when we believe we should be careful to maintain good works and says the us is a faithful saying but I’m in suspense of the shape of the circle around it
Paul is not confused, but you seem to be hung up on works salvation. :(
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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Are you saying that faith does not save us? Something more is needed? Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. So how many works must you accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save you? Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28)


if it was about your explaining things I think everyone on earth would be saved if they put thier faith in circles avoiding scripture based on a few select points plucked from a teaching

you are going in way too large of circles for me I’m gonna move on. I would suggest that when people are doing this

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that there’s no need to run in saying there’s something wrong with that message and insisting works are irrelevant Paul taught that also as well as the cherry picked sections that seem to contradict it above there is what believers in Christ should allow into their churches and hearts so they become these people

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-12, 14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s no need to ever come into that message with explaination as that say no works needed no works needed it’s only a detriment to anyone hearing what he insisted be preached among believers

no benifit to discouraging Christians from doing good works
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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See 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 again.

Now there is a difference in doing God's will in order to become saved:

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

AND doing God's will after we have been saved:

1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
Agreed brother, and there are some believers who will do very little to no works for the Lord and will be judged according to their labor. They will suffer loss of rewards but will be saved. This is why works never justify the believer, only the shed blood of Jesus.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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See 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 again.

Now there is a difference in doing God's will in order to become saved:

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

AND doing God's will after we have been saved:

1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
Do you get dizzy going in the circles ? Mailmen i had assumed had a good sense of direction 🤠 just jesting a little sorry

listen this is true of you and myself

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬M

If you don’t start running away from that simplicity and rushing to some other verse that seems to
Make it irrelevant it will accomplish this Gift from God just by you acknowledging the truth “ you are going to stand before God and account for your works done in life whether good or bad “

“In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if we convince ourselves and others that we aren’t going to be judged by our deeds we’re only misled and misleading but if we acknowledge the truth

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;

but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭6:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


but if you just go in circles and never stop at the truth it’s going to keep you snared Satan wants us to think “ I can’t do anything bout my actions “ “ but “ I can do all thkngs through Christ that strengthens me “ is our message

We have to believe the true gospel and not avoid it that’s where saving faith comes from
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
22,004
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if it was about your explaining things I think everyone on earth would be saved if they put thier faith in circles avoiding scripture based on a few select points plucked from a teaching

you are going in way too large of circles for me I’m gonna move on. I would suggest that when people are doing this

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Nothing there about salvation by works. Be careful to maintain good works/these things are good and profitable unto men does not mean we are saved by works. We are saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS, created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR GOOD WORKS that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

that there’s no need to run in saying there’s something wrong with that message and insisting works are irrelevant Paul taught that also as well as the cherry picked sections that seem to contradict it above there is what believers in Christ should allow into their churches and hearts so they become these people
Irrelevant for what? It sounds to me like you are determined to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith and teach that we are saved by works (at least in part).
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
In Titus 2:11-12, the grace of God that brings salvation has "appeared to all men" (yet that does not mean that all men will accept God's gift of eternal life through faith). God's grace (enabling power) is unmerited and brings salvation through faith (Ephesians 2:8) and in Titus 2:11-12, the "grace of God" also teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously and godly in the present age. Still nothing about salvation by works there.

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-12, 14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Zealous of good works still does not mean saved by works in contradiction to Ephesians 2:8,9.

there’s no need to ever come into that message with explaination as that say no works needed no works needed it’s only a detriment to anyone hearing what he insisted be preached among believers
No works needed for what? We are saved FOR good works (NOT BY good works) and good works are profitable unto men and they also glorify God.

no benifit to discouraging Christians from doing good works
I would never discourage Christians from doing good works. Yet unbelievers should be discouraged from believing they can save themselves by works.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬M

If you don’t start running away from that simplicity and rushing to some other verse that seems to
Make it irrelevant it will accomplish this Gift from God just by you acknowledging the truth “ you are going to stand before God and account for your works done in life whether good or bad “
When did I say those verses were irrelevant? They don't teach salvation by works and are in perfect harmony with 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. What's good is rewarded and what's bad is burned up.

“In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if we convince ourselves and others that we aren’t going to be judged by our deeds we’re only misled and misleading but if we acknowledge the truth
Who said we are not going to be judged? Do you believe that children of God and children of the devil will receive the exact same judgment? What will the judgment determine for believers? (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) What will the judgment determine for unbelievers? (Revelation 20:11-15) Believers will receive rewards and loss of rewards and NOT condemnation. Unbelievers will receive condemnation and for some even greater condemnation. (Matthew 23:14)

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;

but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭6:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬
The one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, sinful nature which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. In opposition to corruption, eternal life is produced by the Holy Spirit in those who put their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ for salvation.

but if you just go in circles and never stop at the truth it’s going to keep you snared Satan wants us to think “ I can’t do anything bout my actions “ “ but “ I can do all thkngs through Christ that strengthens me “ is our message
So because I teach salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and don't teach salvation by works and condemnation for Christians at the judgment I'm not teaching the truth and am snared by Satan? Do you consider me condemned? I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me is scripture, yet salvation by works is not scripture.

We have to believe the true gospel and not avoid it that’s where saving faith comes from
Okay, must believe the TRUE gospel. So what do YOU believe the TRUE gospel IS and what do YOU believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel? (Romans 1:16) If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer? Are you in the Lord, Lord, didn't "WE" group or the Lord, Lord, didn't "YOU" group?

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. The gospel is a message of grace that is to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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Nothing there about salvation by works. Be careful to maintain good works/these things are good and profitable unto men does not mean we are saved by works. We are saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS, created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR GOOD WORKS that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Irrelevant for what? It sounds to me like you are determined to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith and teach that we are saved by works (at least in part).
In Titus 2:11-12, the grace of God that brings salvation has "appeared to all men" (yet that does not mean that all men will accept God's gift of eternal life through faith). God's grace (enabling power) is unmerited and brings salvation through faith (Ephesians 2:8) and in Titus 2:11-12, the "grace of God" also teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously and godly in the present age. Still nothing about salvation by works there.

Zealous of good works still does not mean saved by works in contradiction to Ephesians 2:8,9.

No works needed for what? We are saved FOR good works (NOT BY good works) and good works are profitable unto men and they also glorify God.

I would never discourage Christians from doing good works. Yet unbelievers should be discouraged from believing they can save themselves by works.
isn’t the Bible all about salvation and as we grow up and learn doesn’t it change a bit like a child’s mind maturing and as we do we move in to thkngs for older kids who start cleaning thier own room , eventually grow up and get jobs ect ?

unbelievers should be discouraged from believing they can save themselves by works.”

sure that seems logical but how many unbelievers are around when Christians are gathering to discuss scripture ? And how pervasive is it when any Christian mentions doing or maintaining good works that other Christians come with the message no works no works no works ? That’s counter productive is my only point

your right that no one should be saying “ we’re saved by works” but that’s not what James , Paul or I myself have said sort of at points you and I have agreed you have said “ if faith is genuine the works are going to be there “ and I have agreed that faith comes first and then we do the world because we believe “

same thing different words , however we differ in that the works aren’t just going to happen if we don’t hear about them in the gospel and allow that doctrine to get past the few grace verses that seem contrary we have to hear the real truth out doing the thkngs God has taught us to do and be saved

for instance baptism for remission of sins .

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m looking at that saying

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

your looking here as to why baptism isn’t needed according to an earlier argument you posed I mean

“but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

but why would someone who believed then not get baptized when he gave a promise of remission of sin and salvation ? Only because people argue “it’s a work and not needed we’re saved anyways “

that’s where I think you and I are differing anyone who was to hear the gospel of the kingdom and believe is going to believe that if they get baptized believing thier sins are remitted

if they don’t believe that then why would they bother ? It’s about the actions of faith not just saying we have faith baptism is only an example but the whole gospel is that way when we start hearing Christs word it’s going to create the faith we claim To have and then we’re going to fulfill like Abrahams actions did , the fore promise that we’ve been made right

faith saves us but faith is not without the works taught by Christ
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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When did I say those verses were irrelevant? They don't teach salvation by works and are in perfect harmony with 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. What's good is rewarded and what's bad is burned up.

Who said we are not going to be judged? Do you believe that children of God and children of the devil will receive the exact same judgment? What will the judgment determine for believers? (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) What will the judgment determine for unbelievers? (Revelation 20:11-15) Believers will receive rewards and loss of rewards and NOT condemnation. Unbelievers will receive condemnation and for some even greater condemnation. (Matthew 23:14)

The one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, sinful nature which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. In opposition to corruption, eternal life is produced by the Holy Spirit in those who put their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ for salvation.

So because I teach salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and don't teach salvation by works and condemnation for Christians at the judgment I'm not teaching the truth and am snared by Satan? Do you consider me condemned? I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me is scripture, yet salvation by works is not scripture.

Okay, must believe the TRUE gospel. So what do YOU believe the TRUE gospel IS and what do YOU believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel? (Romans 1:16) If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer? Are you in the Lord, Lord, didn't "WE" group or the Lord, Lord, didn't "YOU" group?

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. The gospel is a message of grace that is to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.
“The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.”

lol that’s a nice looking straw man you’ve built no one has said any to king like that but you to create your circles to avoid things you don’t want to hear you should consider believing the lord

“Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:

but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:34-36, 40-43, 45-46‬ ‭

Jesus is the one we have to answer to not random insecure plucked out lines from Paul we have to see the judge and be judged according to what he has said in the gospel which I see you have reduced from what it is to what suits your argument

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what was jesus preaching and what does Jesus say about eternal
Judgement there ? But already we both see that this is repetitive you will now wuote the same references and explain Jesus does and rose the end that’s it that’s all ect and I will respond with scripture and thoughts from the gospel Jesus preached you will respond with the gospel is what Paul said came first , I’ll respond with Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom and said whoever believes and is baptized will be saved , you will then explain that’s salvstion by works baptism is un necassary

so I think I’m gonna give this one up it’s already gone too long and we’re neither one saying anything new just repeating ourselves and there’s no point in arguing
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
22,004
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for instance baptism for remission of sins .

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m looking at that saying

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

your looking here as to why baptism isn’t needed according to an earlier argument you posed I mean

“but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

but why would someone who believed then not get baptized when he gave a promise of remission of sin and salvation ? Only because people argue “it’s a work and not needed we’re saved anyways “

that’s where I think you and I are differing anyone who was to hear the gospel of the kingdom and believe is going to believe that if they get baptized believing thier sins are remitted

if they don’t believe that then why would they bother ? It’s about the actions of faith not just saying we have faith baptism is only an example but the whole gospel is that way when we start hearing Christs word it’s going to create the faith we claim To have and then we’re going to fulfill like Abrahams actions did , the fore promise that we’ve been made right

faith saves us but faith is not without the works taught by Christ
I already thoroughly covered Mark 16:16 in post #183 and once again. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It logically follows that believers get water baptized after they believe and are saved, but if someone is on their death bed and cannot get baptized before death, they are still saved because they believed (John 3:18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16 etc.. ) which is in harmony with Mark 16:16(b)..but he who does not believe will be condemned. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "water baptized or condemned."

Certainly, water baptism is an important act of obedience. Any one professing to believe/trust in Jesus as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation and yet refusing to be water baptized is of questionable sincerity. It's unthinkable that anyone who truly believes the gospel would refuse to be water baptized. I could not wait to get water baptized after my conversion and I cannot think of one Christian I know who has refused to be water baptized after their conversion.

Baptism is for believers, and believers are already saved, for the Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, not works and not faith + works. By receiving water baptism, Jesus fulfilled all righteousness, so baptism is a work of righteousness and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done.. (Titus 3:5) Now this does not remove good works (including water baptism) from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration and salvation. (Acts 10:43-47; Ephesians 2:8-10)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
22,004
10,796
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“The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.”

lol that’s a nice looking straw man you’ve built no one has said any to king like that but you to create your circles to avoid things you don’t want to hear you should consider believing the lord

“Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:

but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:34-36, 40-43, 45-46‬ ‭
I already thoroughly covered Matthew 25:34-46 in post #206.

Jesus is the one we have to answer to not random insecure plucked out lines from Paul we have to see the judge and be judged according to what he has said in the gospel which I see you have reduced from what it is to what suits your argument
I see that you continue to confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture and the end result is salvation by faith + works.

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what was jesus preaching and what does Jesus say about eternal
Judgement there ?
The word "gospel" simply means "good news." Jesus was preaching the gospel of the kingdom to Israel. John the Baptist preached the gospel of the kingdom, which was, "..Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matthew 3:2) Before the cross, the content of the gospel that Paul later taught and came to him through a revelation of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12) was still a mystery.

Jesus Christ sent the twelve to preach only to Israel. Matthew 10:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ The disciples were specifically told to go only to the people of Israel, and they were not yet preaching anything about the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

In 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, we see that the gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) In this age, there is a distinct element to the content of the gospel which is called "the mystery of the gospel" (see Ephesians 6:19 and compare with Colossians 1:26-27; 4:3). This new revelation is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise (Ephesians 3:6). Such equality, Jew and Gentile united together in one body was previously unknown. The distinct message of the church is that Jew and Gentile alike may believe the gospel and be united together into ONE BODY. (Ephesians 1:13; 1 Corinthians 12:13)

Galatians 1:11 - But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 3:1 - For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ..

But already we both see that this is repetitive you will now wuote the same references and explain Jesus does and rose the end that’s it that’s all ect and I will respond with scripture and thoughts from the gospel Jesus preached you will respond with the gospel is what Paul said came first , I’ll respond with Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom and said whoever believes and is baptized will be saved , you will then explain that’s salvstion by works baptism is un necassary
You seem to have a difficult time with rightly dividing the word of truth and you seem determined to "add" an element of works to salvation through faith.

so I think I’m gonna give this one up it’s already gone too long and we’re neither one saying anything new just repeating ourselves and there’s no point in arguing
Bottom line. You believe we are saved by faith + works and I believe we are saved through faith, not works. You continuously cite passages of scripture that other works-salvationists cite as well in order to try and prove that man is saved by faith + works.