Faith and Deeds

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
6,186
218
63
#21
A lot of fancy explanations to make it fit Paul's doctrine to the body of Christ. Do works justify man's salvation, yes or no? What works justifies salvation and how often must one perform these works?

Context, context, context...who is this written to and to whom does this doctrine apply? James 1:1

1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

The body of Christ, the church, is not the "twelve tribes". The term "twelve tribes" is never associated with the body of Christ but the nation of Israel as a whole. Using this term to describe the church would be counter-productive to Paul's teaching where there is no Jew or Gentile, but we are all one in Christ. The term "twelve tribes" makes a clear distinction between Jew and Gentile.
God is the father of all nations. This know by the name he gave Abraham to signify the Father of many nations. Abraham as to his flesh in the father of the Jewish nation as seeds many humans, and not Christ seed one as to one God.

He is not a respecter of persons and not served by human hands as if he who satisfies all needs needed something from the earthen clay he is forming Christ in.

Twelve tribes just as twelve apostles are metaphors used together to describe the chaste virgin bride of Christ the church . She is not reckoned as Jew or Gentile, male nor female but an entirely new creation.


Galatians 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
680
113
#22
Wrong! If the body of Christ at Philippi had the same trouble arise as in the church of Corinth, then they were to apply the doctrine given by Paul to the church at Corinth. Paul taught the same doctrines to every church.

For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
You have no evidence that James' letter wasn't shared with all churches.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
4,881
116
63
#23
I was simply harmonizing scripture with scripture. Believers are justified by works, only in the sense of being "shown to be righteous" (James 2:14-24) and not accounted as righteous (Romans 4:2-6; 5:1). It's not about how often or how much. The apostle Paul had a multitude of good works to substantiate his faith in Christ, yet the thief on the cross had little time to accomplish much, yet still rebuked the other thief, admitted his guilt and defended Jesus while asking Him to remember his when He comes into His kingdom and that was still enough to substantiate his faith as well.

So what's your point? In James 1:2, Paul refers to them as his "brethren." Are you suggesting an alternative interpretation to James 2:14-24 because the term "twelve tribes" is used?
Why harmonize what Paul says to the body of Christ with what James says to the twelve tribes scattered abroad? Paul clearly teaches to rightly divide the word of truth. There are divisions to be made in order to divide doctrinal teachings within Scripture. Until this is understood, there will always be conflict trying to harmonize Paul's letters with James. One must use sly exposition to try and fit the square peg in the round hole.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
4,881
116
63
#24
You have no evidence that James' letter wasn't shared with all churches.
I'm just using the evidence that is provided in Scripture. James' letter is addressed to the "twelve tribes scattered abroad". The body of Christ is never referred to as the "twelve tribes". This would contradict every other usage of that term in Scripture, and I'm not willing to do that to harmonize James with Paul.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
4,881
116
63
#25
God is the father of all nations. This know by the name he gave Abraham to signify the Father of many nations. Abraham as to his flesh in the father of the Jewish nation as seeds many humans, and not Christ seed one as to one God.

He is not a respecter of persons and not served by human hands as if he who satisfies all needs needed something from the earthen clay he is forming Christ in.

Twelve tribes just as twelve apostles are metaphors used together to describe the chaste virgin bride of Christ the church . She is not reckoned as Jew or Gentile, male nor female but an entirely new creation.


Galatians 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Ahhh, so now the term "twelve tribes" is a metaphor. Interesting...this contradicts every other usage of that term throughout Scripture. Are you willing to do that? Not me...
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
4,881
116
63
#26
It can be argued that if Abram hadn't circumcised himself he would have been cut off from GOD's promises.
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Genesis 17:14

Here's another one that supports that. Noah believed GOD, yet he saved himself by building an ark and getting on-board it.
Agreed, Hebrews 11 is full of examples of OT saints demonstrating their faith through their works. That's what faith is! Faith must have evidence! Faith must have substance!
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
680
113
#27
I'm just using the evidence that is provided in Scripture. James' letter is addressed to the "twelve tribes scattered abroad". The body of Christ is never referred to as the "twelve tribes". This would contradict every other usage of that term in Scripture, and I'm not willing to do that to harmonize James with Paul.
It was all one church proclaiming one gospel message. It was agreed at the Jerusalem council (Acts 15) that Paul would take that message to the uncircumcision and Peter would take it to the circumcision.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
6,186
218
63
#28
The Son of man Jesus declared... only God not seen is good. God in respect to His person defines what is good. After each work of His faith in creation he would declare it is good.

Good deeds are reckoned by the Spirit of Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God that works in us to both will and do the good pleasure of Emanuel (God with us)

Faith is a work or called a labor of Love.

If trying to divide it from faith it produces dead works.(nothing)

Faith is the free gift by which we can believe God as his faith works in us again to both will and do the good pleasure, as a imputed righteousness. The same kind of imputed righteousness described of Abraham and Rehab the scarlet woman in James 2.

Prior to our new faith that comes from a new spirit that could never die and a new heart all humans are recokoned as “no faith”

The imaginations of one’s sinful heart is not counted as faith it cannot please God who alone is good.

Deuteronomy 32:20 King James Version (KJV) And hesaid, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: forthey are a very froward generation, children in whom is "no faith".

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.Ephesians 2

Faith in the above passage is represented by the it

Grace is not reckoned by no works, just not of any work we could do apart from Him who lives in us. We are saved through Christ’s work of faith.

We are saved by Christ's work of faith as a labor of his love .Again faith is a work not of us.

No difference between the James 2 account and the Ephesians 2.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
1,392
155
63
#29
Ahhh, so now the term "twelve tribes" is a metaphor. Interesting...this contradicts every other usage of that term throughout Scripture. Are you willing to do that? Not me...
12 tribes of Israel/Israel/Real Jews - these terms in the new covenant mean believers and therefore, church.

Rev 14:1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

I want to know from you, these 144k that were redeemed from the earth (not Israel) and were purchased from among mankind (Not tribal Jews), are they not the 144k spoken about in Rev 7, from the '12 tribes of Israel'?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
4,881
116
63
#30
12 tribes of Israel/Israel/Real Jews - these terms in the new covenant mean believers and therefore, church.

Rev 14:1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

I want to know from you, these 144k that were redeemed from the earth (not Israel) and were purchased from among mankind (Not tribal Jews), are they not the 144k spoken about in Rev 7, from the '12 tribes of Israel'?
Those 144,000 male Jews are certainly from the twelve tribes of Israel, not the body of Christ. There are specifically 12,000 from each tribe as stated in Revelation 7.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
6,186
218
63
#31
Agreed, Hebrews 11 is full of examples of OT saints demonstrating their faith through their works. That's what faith is! Faith must have evidence! Faith must have substance!

Faith is evidence God is working in a person to both will and do His good pleasure .The evidence is a new heart contrite heart that can seek do His will, which without no man could please God not seen

The apostate Jews (not born again) required as sign they performed before they would believe their own selves as evidence they moved. No sign gifts we walk by faith the unseen, eternal

They performed that as the witness of men .God does not accept the witness of men, his unseen witness is greater as one who was there working in the affairs of men .The outward Jews pertaining to the flesh stumbled over it. The Greek who said show us God by the wisdom of man the philosophies of this world, also stumbled as fools,(no God in eithers heart)


For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;1 Cor 1:30
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
6,186
218
63
#32
Those 144,000 male Jews are certainly from the twelve tribes of Israel, not the body of Christ. There are specifically 12,000 from each tribe as stated in Revelation 7.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

The number is used as a unknown used as a metaphor to represent the chaste virgin bride of Christ shown in a parable found in Revelation 12.

God forbids the numbering of His people.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
4,881
116
63
#33
Faith is evidence God is working in a person to both will and do His good pleasure .The evidence is a new heart contrite heart that can seek do His will, which without no man could please God not seen

The apostate Jews (not born again) required as sign they performed before they would believe their own selves as evidence they moved. No sign gifts we walk by faith the unseen, eternal

They performed that as the witness of men .God does not accept the witness of men, his unseen witness is greater as one who was there working in the affairs of men .The outward Jews pertaining to the flesh stumbled over it. The Greek who said show us God by the wisdom of man the philosophies of this world, also stumbled as fools,(no God in eithers heart)


For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;1 Cor 1:30
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith requires substance. Faith requires evidence. The rest Hebrews 11 shows the evidence of those OT saint's faith through their obedience. Their obedience to God's word is the evidence of their faith.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
4,881
116
63
#34
The number is used as a unknown used as a metaphor to represent the chaste virgin bride of Christ shown in a parable found in Revelation 12.

God forbids the numbering of His people.
Revelation 7
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

No metaphors here. Take it literally. Verse 9 is pointing to the body of Christ that have been caught up in the clouds to be with the Lord. They have been clothed in white robes. The marriage ceremony has taken place.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
6,186
218
63
#35
Ahhh, so now the term "twelve tribes" is a metaphor. Interesting...this contradicts every other usage of that term throughout Scripture. Are you willing to do that? Not me...
The whole book of Revelation is not only inspired but also "signified" using the things seen the temporal to reveal the unseen things, the eternal Helping us to understand what the Spirit of Christ meant when he said; without parables he spoke not... hiding the spiritual understanding in metaphors.

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV)The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signifiedit by his angel unto his servant John:
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
4,881
116
63
#36
The whole book of Revelation is not only inspired but also "signified" using the things seen the temporal to reveal the unseen things, the eternal Helping us to understand what the Spirit of Christ meant when he said; without parables he spoke not... hiding the spiritual understanding in metaphors.

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV)The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signifiedit by his angel unto his servant John:
So the number 144,000 is a metaphor, as well as, the number 12,000.
 

Gman

Junior Member
Nov 30, 2017
75
34
18
#37
Many Christians are indeed ideological and or fanatical where as God did not just say one thing so they usually run into trouble. I believe every word I embrace every word...
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
6,186
218
63
#38
So the number 144,000 is a metaphor, as well as, the number 12,000.
Yes, I believe the word thousand represents a unknown after many increments whether its 12 or 144 they are used as a metaphor throughout the scriptures to hide the spiritual meaning from the lost
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
4,881
116
63
#39
Many Christians are indeed ideological and or fanatical where as God did not just say one thing so they usually run into trouble. I believe every word I embrace every word...
Amen, I would add that I take every word literally unless Scripture tells me not to through context, usually with the words "like" and "as". If not taken literally, one can make Scripture teach anything they desire.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
1,392
155
63
#40
So the number 144,000 is a metaphor, as well as, the number 12,000.
You are wrong about the 144;

Rev 14 says these are redeemed from the earth. If it were tribal Jews, it would be more specific and say something like "...these were redeemed from Israel or Jerusalem...".
In the same chapter again, it said that they were purchased from among the mankind; if it means tribal Jews only then it would be better to say "...they were purchased among the Israelites or Jews .."

You don't know about the 144k but i'm going to give you a revelation of who they are.

In the new covenant there's no such thing as revival of tribal Jews, the real Jews in the eyes of God are believers, a non believer is a synagogue of satan (Rev 2:9/ Rev 3:9).
There are two groups of believers; the unfaithful believer who are by far the majority of believers and are symbolized by: Jerusalem/Church of Smyrna. These group are unfaithful mainly because they don't know God and their faith has to be refined in fire which means they will undergo tribulation and die for their faith.

The second group of believers are the 144k believers; they are symbolized as Judah/remnant of Judah/ Church of Philadelphia. These are faithful believers who know God. They won't die from tribulation and these are the ones that make up the temple of God/The new Jerusalem (Rev 21) as was promised to them in Rev 3.

These two groups have been taken captive and are in Babylon- figuratively means we are all under the rule of antichrist, but God watches over the 144k so that no harm befalls them. the antichrist will pursue and kill the other group of believers. And for these reason, Jesus said:

Luke 21: 20But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near.21Then let those in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city

Matt 23:37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! 38Look, your house is left to you desolate.

Luke 19:41As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

All these has nothing to do with what happened or will happen physically as some claim, these have a hidden spiritual meaning. This is the same script as the old testament when the tribal Jews (the two groups -Jerusalem & Judah) were taken captive into Babylon. that was indeed a prophesy of what is happening to us now.

Read Jeremiah 24 and understand what happens- in summary; Jerusalem was taken captive and they all died but the remnant of Judah was taken captive, and were protected by God. These included Daniel/Meshack/Abednego. They represent the 144k believers of our time.