Faith is a fruit of the Spirit, heresy is a work of the flesh (Gal.5)

[Abiding]

Abiding, Btw, look at my post#34 and you will se an input where R C Sproul is quoted. You will see there that what I have presented here is nothing "new" or some exclusive theory. By any stretch.

No. I didnt say or think any of this is new. And yes im aware name brand saints have held this view.
Im not familiar enough with it to adopt it. If i ever do. Alot of scripture to take into consideration when
seeing a possible view needs change. Im sure you know what i mean.

I read sproul. saw the proof texts. As true as they are they dont make a doctrine alone. Look for a sec.
at John 1:9-13. Its similiar to the eph. verse. i see v13 is clear, although how can it negate v 12a the order
seems clear to me. Meaning that if believing or receiving Him follows regeneration, what is the power? that
follows receiving? And how did they believe before they were regenerated? As well as throughout acts...
why did the Holyspirit fell on them or filled them or saved them, after they believed, and not before they
believed, or received the gospel? And what is receiving the Holyspirit besides regeneration?

Most of romans 4 and 5 are gona be very difficult to comply with this tribesman, along with dozens
of others.

Oh ya...u wanted scripture if there was any showing a proceeding grace to draw man, and provide the
ability to understand and repent and receive the gospel before regeneration. Ill look for that soon.
The beautitudes come to mind but ill think on it more.

 

[Abiding]

What does draw mean...scriptures show that God can draw while people
resist. Jesus said he would draw all men. John 6:43-51;65, 12:32 and the dreaded
hebrews 6 and 10. That idea is what id refer to a preceeding grace or power given
by either the power of the gospel alone john 6:62-64 or eph 2:8 grace before faith
Anyway you dont have to trouble with me. I just havnt yet seen yet that faith although
it is given to all man and is a gift from God. And yes i spose you could call it a fruit,
it still doesnt imply regeneration. Anymore than Judas operating
spiritual powers on his missionary journeys as well as the other disciples showed
they were converted or regenerated.

 

[tribesman]

Ok, I'll let the post stand I think anyone can see that you did but
we'll let them be the judges of that.

If you don't believe that All are in Christ I can't see the point of continuing on really,
If he didn't drag all into Himself at Crucifixtion, then how did He Take away The sin
of The World? Because the Nature is what is in question here. The old unregenerate
and The new Regenerate.

Christ and His work should always be Central focus on any discussion.

I just want to say that, Christ in the person is what causes fruit, faith, and renewel.
until then I believe their sin is not being imputed unto them because of Christ, but
without Him living in them and quiding them into All Truth, they will remain in an unregenerate
state. And that is their state NO LIFE in this world, and then they await The Lake of fire,
Which will no doubt be their AWAKENING.

Blessings

Are you saying that the lake of fire will mean an" awakening"`in the sense thatthose that arer there will eventually go from there to "heaven"?

Your view is quite extreme, if so. What is the difference between your view and classical universalism?

 

[tribesman]

That's exactly what I'm saying too. Not all IN Christ is Regenerate, But those that Christ is IN, is.

I think you are not saying the same thing as Abiding. Your view is highly unbiblical, which has been shown. Where did you get this stuff from?

 

[tribesman]

...I read sproul. saw the proof texts. As true as they are they dont make a doctrine alone. Look for a sec. at John 1:9-13. Its similiar to the eph. verse. i see v13 is clear, although how can it negate v 12a the order seems clear to me. Meaning that if believing or receiving Him follows regeneration, what is the power? that follows receiving? And how did they believe before they were regenerated? As well as throughout acts...why did the Holyspirit fell on them or filled them or saved them, after they believed, and not before they believed, or received the gospel? And what is receiving the Holyspirit besides regeneration?.

The power unto salvation is the gospel. It is not the hearing and receiving of it that is primarily the crucial issue, it is what it represents: the righteousness of God (Rom.1:16-17). It is God who quickens/regenerates sinners as by means of the gospel. John 1:12-13 does not have to note an exact chronological order. It is the fruit: faith and regeneration, or regeneration and faith, that are intertwined, that is the object.

And we have a very clear scripture in this context that says that regeneration is NOT by the will of the flesh (in which no man can please God) and NOT by the will of man - but by God.

As for your examples from Acts, yes, there were (and are) several infillings of the Spirit after regeneration. There is also an infilling of the Spirit for ministry. Again, one cannot but assume anything else than those who experience such are already born again, born of the Spirit.

Most of romans 4 and 5 are gona be very difficult to comply with this tribesman, along with dozens of others.

What are the "difficulties" with Romans 4 and 5? Do you have to presuppose that it is a natural man who chooses to believe to have it make sense to you? I for one don't. If justification is a legal act of God, wherein He make the ungodly righteous, then He do not need to wait for anything from man's part.

 

[tribesman]

Oh ya...u wanted scripture if there was any showing a proceeding grace to draw man, and provide the ability to understand and repent and receive the gospel before regeneration. Ill look for that soon. The beautitudes come to mind but ill think on it more.

OK. I await your response. Personally I find all ideas of proceeding or (the arminian-methodist-papist take of) prevenient grace unscriptural and mere man-made constructions to "save" some sort of idea that man has a "part" to fulfill in his justification. What the issue boils down to are the crucial issues of sin, righteousness and judgment. If man is dead in his sins or not, if the righteousness of God (revealed in the gospel) is a righteousness outside of the sinner, imputed to him, or not. And all related issues. Usually it will show up when people are to distinguish law and gospel if they have understood this or not.

 

[tribesman]

What does draw mean...scriptures show that God can draw while people resist. Jesus said he would draw all men. John 6:43-51;65, 12:32 and the dreaded hebrews 6 and 10. That idea is what id refer to a preceeding grace or power given by either the power of the gospel alone john 6:62-64 or eph 2:8 grace before faith Anyway you dont have to trouble with me. I just havnt yet seen yet that faith although it is given to all man and is a gift from God. And yes i spose you could call it a fruit, it still doesnt imply regeneration. Anymore than Judas operating spiritual powers on his missionary journeys as well as the other disciples showed they were converted or regenerated.

Draw would here mean to forcefully compel. God needs so to draw sinners, because they are not willing to come to Him. That is, they are not willing - before God works in them to will and to do of His good pleasure (Phil.2.13). So this drawing would be something that will not be frustrated or failed. God would lose none of His.

If one believes that this "all men" means literally that, then what about those countless people on earth that never heard the gospel (throughout the ages)? I don't see how they are drawn since they never had the opportunity to hear about and believe in Christ. But if one believes that this "draw all men" means literally "all men" then they must have heard the gospel anyway. And, some will find ear itching and "good sounding" explanations for that this is the case. But it is not scriptural.

The fact is no one can believe unless they hear the Word of God (Rom. 10:17). So how can the heathen believe without hearing? How can they "all" be drawn if not "all" have heard the gospel or even had the slightest chance to ever hear it? They cannot.

 

[Red33]

Draw would here mean to forcefully compel. God needs so to draw sinners, because they are not willing to come to Him. That is, they are not willing - before God works in them to will and to do of His good pleasure (Phil.2.13). So this drawing would be something that will not be frustrated or failed. God would lose none of His.

If one believes that this "all men" means literally that, then what about those countless people on earth that never heard the gospel (throughout the ages)? I don't see how they are drawn since they never had the opportunity to hear about and believe in Christ. But if one believes that this "draw all men" means literally "all men" then they must have heard the gospel anyway. And, some will find ear itching and "good sounding" explanations for that this is the case. But it is not scriptural.

The fact is no one can believe unless they hear the Word of God (Rom. 10:17). So how can the heathen believe without hearing? How can they "all" be drawn if not "all" have heard the gospel or even had the slightest chance to ever hear it? They cannot.

tribesman,

When Jesus began His public ministry and on the way called men to come and follow Him, were these (12) men regenerated when He called them? If unregenerated, they were called and drawn and used their volition to follow Him and hear His teachings. They responded as unregenerated men and cooperated with the calling of the Lord that was put out to them. They even left all to follow Him. Does that sound like a response of an unregenerated man? If these men were already regenerated, why didn't they know that this was the Christ that called them? Why did Jesus ask the disciples who they thought He was as He did other men in (Mt 16:13-17). Why was it needed to give them the Spirit much later if they were already regenerated as new men? Just when were these men that were called regenerated and born of the water of the word and spirit?

If these disciples where unregenerate men when the Lord had called them to follow Him, you can not deny the fact that they used their free will and volition to follow Him, to listen to what He had to say in the light and even have their evil deeds be reproved by His words. What drew the woman who had the issue of blood for so many years to come to the Lord to be healed? Was she regenerated or was she stirred up by faith because of who Christ was and able to do concerning her affliction? What drew the centurion to the Lord to only ask Him to speak the word and have the faith that his servant would be healed (Mt 8:5-8)? Was he also a regenerated man that believed our Lord by proxy for the healing of his servant? What drew the thief on the cross to ask the Lord to remember him that day when Christ came into the kingdom? Was he already a regenerated believer or did he believe upon the Lord Jesus at the cross and Christ was faithful to His promise?

 

[Abiding]

tribesman,

When Jesus began His public ministry and on the way called men to come and follow Him, were these (12) men regenerated when He called them? If unregenerated, they were called and drawn and used their volition to follow Him and hear His teachings. They responded as unregenerated men and cooperated with the calling of the Lord that was put out to them. They even left all to follow Him. Does that sound like a response of an unregenerated man? If these men were already regenerated, why didn't they know that this was the Christ that called them? Why did Jesus ask the disciples who they thought He was as He did other men in (Mt 16:13-17). Why was it needed to give them the Spirit much later if they were already regenerated as new men? Just when were these men that were called regenerated and born of the water of the word and spirit?

If these disciples where unregenerate men when the Lord had called them to follow Him, you can not deny the fact that they used their free will and volition to follow Him, to listen to what He had to say in the light and even have their evil deeds be reproved by His words. What drew the woman who had the issue of blood for so many years to come to the Lord to be healed? Was she regenerated or was she stirred up by faith because of who Christ was and able to do concerning her affliction? What drew the centurion to the Lord to only ask Him to speak the word and have the faith that his servant would be healed (Mt 8:5-8)? Was he also a regenerated man that believed our Lord by proxy for the healing of his servant? What drew the thief on the cross to ask the Lord to remember him that day when Christ came into the kingdom? Was he already a regenerated believer or did he believe upon the Lord Jesus at the cross and Christ was faithful to His promise?

As ive said in another post, i have never dealt with this issue before....but in the light of this post i thought
of Jesus telling Peter God had revealed to him that Jesus was Christ and then a statement following from Jesus was for
Peter after he was converted(regenerated) to strengthen his brethren. And many more passages indicate
this pattern. So what heresy am i in....believing that from the time a person is born the Holyspirit draws and
enables a man to come to saving faith?

 

[Grandpa]

As ive said in another post, i have never dealt with this issue before....but in the light of this post i thought
of Jesus telling Peter God had revealed to him that Jesus was Christ and then a statement following from Jesus was for
Peter after he was converted(regenerated) to strengthen his brethren. And many more passages indicate
this pattern. So what heresy am i in....believing that from the time a person is born the Holyspirit draws and
enables a man to come to saving faith?

I think the same thing. I think the Lord calls you your whole life. I don't think the Lord ever stops drawing you to Him. Even when you think you have "arrived". LOL.

 

[Red33]

As ive said in another post, i have never dealt with this issue before....but in the light of this post i thought
of Jesus telling Peter God had revealed to him that Jesus was Christ and then a statement following from Jesus was for
Peter after he was converted(regenerated) to strengthen his brethren. And many more passages indicate
this pattern. So what heresy am i in....believing that from the time a person is born the Holyspirit draws and
enables a man to come to saving faith?

I don't believe the word that is used here in (Lk 22:32) for converted (epistrepho) is the same word for regeneration (paliggenesia - Titus 3:5). The word for converted means to bring or restore back. Peter was in need of restoring and not in need of regeneration which means renewel through the new birth. The Lord had already told Peter that he was clean every wit (Jn 13:10) and needed not to be washed again. The washing of regeneration had already taken place in Peter's life (Titus 3:5). There is a specific point in time when a man believes in his heart unto salvation (2Cor 6:2) and at that time God cleanes that man from all sin, imputed His righteousness, gives him the earnest of the Spirit and he becomes a new creature in Christ. The drawing process can begin at birth, being seperated from the womb, as Paul relates to it in (Gal 1:15) or in the case of Isaiah in (Is 49:1).

 

[Abiding]

Wow thanks Red. This shows me i havnt looked up words as i should.
Its a good thing i dont know it all.

 

[Red33]

Wow thanks Red. This shows me i havnt looked up words as i should.
Its a good thing i dont know it all.

It was your post that got me to look them up and come to those conclusions in doing so. So thank you Abiding for stirring me up in the scriptures.

 

[tribesman]

tribesman,

When Jesus began His public ministry and on the way called men to come and follow Him, were these (12) men regenerated when He called them? If unregenerated, they were called and drawn and used their volition to follow Him and hear His teachings. They responded as unregenerated men and cooperated with the calling of the Lord that was put out to them. They even left all to follow Him. Does that sound like a response of an unregenerated man? If these men were already regenerated, why didn't they know that this was the Christ that called them? Why did Jesus ask the disciples who they thought He was as He did other men in (Mt 16:13-17). Why was it needed to give them the Spirit much later if they were already regenerated as new men? Just when were these men that were called regenerated and born of the water of the word and spirit?

If these disciples where unregenerate men when the Lord had called them to follow Him, you can not deny the fact that they used their free will and volition to follow Him, to listen to what He had to say in the light and even have their evil deeds be reproved by His words. What drew the woman who had the issue of blood for so many years to come to the Lord to be healed? Was she regenerated or was she stirred up by faith because of who Christ was and able to do concerning her affliction? What drew the centurion to the Lord to only ask Him to speak the word and have the faith that his servant would be healed (Mt 8:5-8)? Was he also a regenerated man that believed our Lord by proxy for the healing of his servant? What drew the thief on the cross to ask the Lord to remember him that day when Christ came into the kingdom? Was he already a regenerated believer or did he believe upon the Lord Jesus at the cross and Christ was faithful to His promise?

As I see it, regeneration is not something new that began in NT times, it has always existed, on the same ground as today. As for the calling of the disciples, I believe that they were regenerate, except for Judas Iscariot which was a "devil". Apart from Judas then, I believe that the other disciples were regenerate, that they trusted the coming sacrifice of the Messiah and His imputed righteousness as the only basis for their right and just standing with God, that they had the law of God written in their hearts and the will to keep it, as such they were willing to follow Christ out of recognizing Him for whom He is. So they acknowledged Him for what He is, because they knew. Christ's question to Peter of whom he thought He was is there to show us that only God can reveal the nature of the Messiah.

I do not find the idea of them being unregenerate and in that state accepting a calling of talmidim (discipleship) making much of sense. I think they would not have been called to ministry as unregenerate. Besides, we must also remember that they were circumcised and baptized (by way of mikvah) members of God's covenant community (so was Judas, but he was not regenerate, he was a devil). So, I think it is very risky to apply them as example of something universal. We should also remember that the ministry of the disciples, who later became known as apostles (or emissaries), was unique, as they contributed to the Holy Writ. Their calling and ministry will not be repeated.

As for their reception of the Spirit, I believe that there are two different aspects of this, one prior to Pentecost (as seen in John 20) and one on the day of Pentecost (as seen in Acts 1-2) as well as after it (several infillings of the Spirit). Jesus made it clear that the baptism of the Spirit would become a reality after He had departed. The disciples were still regenerate as they received the Spirit (remember the world cannot receive Him, so it has to be the regenerate who does so) and they received the Spirit to continue in the duties that Christ had ordained them to do, as said in John 20 and elsewhere.

While there could have been hypocrites and unregenerates who called on Christ to receive something of a blessing from Him, on the positive I would say it stands to reason that all those who saw Christ as for whom He is, did so because they realized that He was the one that the law and prophets testified of. This they could not have done by their mere intellellect or through "flesh and blood", but by that revealing of the Son of God that comes with becoming a new creature.

 

[A-Omega]

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


This verse is being used way out of context to support some notion of Calvinism in this thread. Here is the actual context of the verse

41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.



Jesus had just proclaimed himself to be the bread of heaven and the pharisees interrupted Him with their murmuring. He was checking them for their interruption and rebuking them for their pride. And He says that pride was there because they are not truly learning Scripture. Had they sought God with a humble heart, they would recognize Jesus as the Son of God prophesied in Scripture. This is how The Father drew people to Christ. By making 39 books about Him. If you look at the Scripture, this is the second time they were upset with Him. Their initial beef was Jesus proclaiming to be greater than Moses in chapter 5. And this is the origin of their pride and attitude:


37And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41I receive not honour from men.
42But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

It's clear. It is the Old Testament that the Jews should have known and received with a humble heart that would have pointed them directly to Jesus. So that when He showed up, they could identify Him right away. But because of their pride and sin, they were not led by the testimony of the Father and not drawn to Jesus. This is the contextual meaning of the verse in question. God bless.

 

[tribesman]

... What drew the thief on the cross to ask the Lord to remember him that day when Christ came into the kingdom? Was he already a regenerated believer or did he believe upon the Lord Jesus at the cross and Christ was faithful to His promise?

The justified thief, I believe was jewish and had the covenant seals and signs and not too unlikely also may had received John's baptism. God drew the justified thief on the cross to Christ. As he was given assurance by Christ Himself, he obviously had knowledge about who Christ was and he believed that the work of Christ alone would redeem him.

The unregenerate does not have this knowledge nor do they believe this, as they are ignorant about the righteousness of God, which is revealed in the gospel (Rom.1:16-17) going about to establish their own righteousness (Rom.10:3), bringing forth fruit unto death (Rom.7:5). On the other hand, every regenerate person believes the gospel, that salvation is conditioned on the atonement blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone. This without the deeds of the law (Romans 3:21-26).

Principally then, all must be saved by the same means with same manifestations. This regardless of their age, circumstances and intellectual capacity.

 

[tribesman]

...41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Every man has not heard and has not learned from the Father.

Jesus had just proclaimed himself to be the bread of heaven and the pharisees interrupted Him with their murmuring. He was checking them for their interruption and rebuking them for their pride. And He says that pride was there because they are not truly learning Scripture. Had they sought God with a humble heart, they would recognize Jesus as the Son of God prophesied in Scripture. This is how The Father drew people to Christ. By making 39 books about Him. If you look at the Scripture, this is the second time they were upset with Him. Their initial beef was Jesus proclaiming to be greater than Moses in chapter 5. And this is the origin of their pride and attitude:


37And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41I receive not honour from men.
42But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

It's clear. It is the Old Testament that the Jews should have known and received with a humble heart that would have pointed them directly to Jesus. So that when He showed up, they could identify Him right away. But because of their pride and sin, they were not led by the testimony of the Father and not drawn to Jesus. This is the contextual meaning of the verse in question. God bless.

Christ came to show them that they did not seek God, because they were sinners, transgressors of the law. No unregenerate person, jewish or gentile, seeks God. Romans 3 is clear cut:

Rom.3

[1] What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
[2] Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
[3] For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
[4] God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
[5] But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
[6] God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
[7] For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
[8] And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
[9] What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
[10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
[11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
[12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
[13] Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
[14] Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
[15] Their feet are swift to shed blood:
[16] Destruction and misery are in their ways:
[17] And the way of peace have they not known:
[18] There is no fear of God before their eyes.
[19] Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
[20] Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
[21] But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
[24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
[25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
[26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
[27] Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
[28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
[29] Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
[30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
[31] Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Humility (meekness, Gal.5:23, KJV) is a fruit of the Spirit. Only regenerate persons have this. An unregenerate person can not work up a humility before God that would make him justified.

 

[A-Omega]

Every man has not heard and has not learned from the Father.



Christ came to show them that they did not seek God, because they were sinners, transgressors of the law. No unregenerate person, jewish or gentile, seeks God.

And this is what Calvinists are forced to do -- blatantly add to scripture and twist an account to fit their theology. Jesus said nothing about the people He was speaking for not "seeking God." He specifically and in context tells them that it is the Old Testament that is God's teaching and the means by which God draws people to Jesus The Lord. But in their pride they were not reading the text with an open heart and thus did not recognize Jesus as Messiah when He was very plainly and clearly making Messianic claims straight from the Old Testament.

Now that it has been shown that this verse was being ripped out of its context, you are just jumping to the next proof text (Romans 3, which will be followed by Romans 9). Why not just discuss the passage in question and explain the context of what Jesus actually says in the text if I'm wrong?

 

[tribesman]

And this is what Calvinists are forced to do -- blatantly add to scripture and twist an account to fit their theology.

I believe you are adding to scripture and twist things to suit your own understanding of them. Romans 3 makes every bit of sense in understanding the issue at hand. Scripture should be interpreted with scripture.

Jesus said nothing about the people He was speaking for not "seeking God." He specifically and in context tells them that it is the Old Testament that is God's teaching and the means by which God draws people to Jesus The Lord.

Yes, the law, the prophets and the writings are there to draw people to Christ. But you are saying that this applies to "all men"?

But in their pride they were not reading the text with an open heart and thus did not recognize Jesus as Messiah when He was very plainly and clearly making Messianic claims straight from the Old Testament.

And the reason for that was basically their sin. And their false concept of same, they being ignorant of the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel, going about to establish their own righteousness.

Now that it has been shown that this verse was being ripped out of its context, you are just jumping to the next proof text (Romans 3, which will be followed by Romans 9). Why not just discuss the passage in question and explain the context of what Jesus actually says in the text if I'm wrong?

I showed you that there are implications of the scriptures you posted. Every man has not heard and has not learned from the Father.

Scream louder, use bigger fonts in bold and you are right?

 

[A-Omega]

I believe you are adding to scripture and twist things to suit your own understanding of them. Romans 3 makes every bit of sense in understanding the issue at hand. Scripture should be interpreted with scripture.

Except you are not even looking at what Jesus said before you run for more proof texts. Jesus is letting the Jews in that passage know they could have and should have known who He was. But as Jesus said "ye will not." This is the point I am making from the proper context of the scripture. If these people were pre-programmed to reject Jesus because they were not an "Approved List" for Heaven, then their will would be irrelevant. But they out of their desire to sin, hardened their hearts to the truth of the Scripture about the Messiah and thus rejected Jesus.

Yes, the law, the prophets and the writings are there to draw people to Christ. But you are saying that this applies to "all men"?

I'm not saying it. Jesus did. Just as He said at His crucifixion HE would draw all men to Him:

32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Just like the Bible says that we should draw near to God first:

8Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

It is an interactive relationship. We as humans have responsibility in our hearts. Your interpretation makes Jesus illogical. If people can do nothing to seek Him and have no chance of ever believing in Hiim, then why would He scold them? They are just doing exactly what God made them to do.

I showed you that there are implications of the scriptures you posted. Every man has not heard and has not learned from the Father.

And I have shown you my point in properly contextualizing the verse.

But now to get to Romans 3:

[1] What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
[2] Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
[3] For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
[4] God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
[5] But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
[6] God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
[7] For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
[8] And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
[9] What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

This is the point of the whole passage BTW. I will explain more below.


[10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
[11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
[12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
[13] Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
[14] Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
[15] Their feet are swift to shed blood:
[16] Destruction and misery are in their ways:
[17] And the way of peace have they not known:
[18] There is no fear of God before their eyes.
[19] Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
[20] Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Ok, so Paul is quoting Psalm 14 here. A Psalm about the enemies of Israel, not the people of Israel:

"3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 4Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD."

So in context, that very short Psalm is not talking about Israelites. It was a Psalm directed at their enemies who were unbelievers. So what does Paul mean in his usage of it? What Paul is saying in Romans 3, in context, is that although Jews were and are indeed elect, that election does not mean "automatic salvation." The Jews were elect to have the oracles and the prophets. The Jews were elect to bring forth the law of God to the world. The Jews were elect to give birth to the Messiah. While these were all great things, Paul is clearly saying "don't think you automatically get into Heaven because of this! You are no different than the Philistines who David wrote about - you're just as sinful and wayward as someone who never believed in God without salvation in Jesus Christ." This is not a passage that is trying to assert that "the unregenerate have no ability to seek God in any way, shape form or fashion." That is a misuse of the text. It is saying that the Israelites will never be justified by the law and that "election" does NOT MEAN SALVATION. It is refuting the false interpretation of "election" that Calvinists employ.

This is why Paul opens the chapter by saying: What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? This is the issue of the chapter he is addressing, not anything to do remotely with the ideas of Calvnism. He is checking the Israelites for their reliance on their election with a very salient example from the Psalms (14 and 10) to show that they are no different than the rest of the world and the law will not get them anywhere, despite their election to do certain tasks and roles for God. They could not rely on those things to get them to Heaven. They needed to have faith in Christ like all the world and were just as lost in God's eyes as the rest of the world.



The chapters ends with this:
4Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Again, the point is made, we ALL, Jew and Gentile, are justified by faith. And that faith comes from people believing. We have to believe. It is within us to seek God and believe upon the name of Jesus. How do I know this? Because Paul continues the same point in Chapter 4:

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,



IF we believe, we can be saved (Rom 4:24). It is on us. There is nothing in this passage that supports the Calvinist notion of total depravity or election. This is just not what Paul is talking about in context.

Furthermore, we know that people can indeed seek God without hearing the Gospel:

Acts 10 1There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, 2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. 3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. 4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

At this point, Cornelius has not heard the Gospel. He was not a believer in Jesus. Yet he was seeking God. He was not totally depraved. The Bible calls him "devout" and one who "feared God" and prayed to Him. Yet He had not heard the Gospel. This completely refutes the point Calvinists make using Romans 3. Not only was Cornelius aware of God and seeking Him, an angel even commended him for his efforts. Thus the "unregenerate", as you call them, can and do seek and desire God. The only way to interpret this clear chapter on salvation is to add things and twist scripture. No total depravity when the bible is used in context.

Scream louder, use bigger fonts in bold and you are right?

Come on behave. I am using the Scripture properly to make my points. I just happen to like big fonts and bolding. It's fun and much more visually exciting. lol.