Faith is a work.

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May 15, 2019
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#1
To say we are not saved by works is to say we are not saved by faith because the Bible says faith is a work. John 6:29.

To say we are not saved by works is misleading. There are at least 3 or 4 different kinds of works talked about in the Bible. Some works we are not saved by are the works of the Old Testament law of Moses. Galatians. To try to be justified by these you will fall from Grace. Another kind of work are the ones men boast about ( boastful works) these are works that come from men. That ORIGINATE with men. These are not works of God. Some that come to mind are “playing ball for Jesus” or selling chicken dinners to raise money for a good cause. Did Jesus tell you to do these things? Then they didn’t come from him. And we know they were boastful works because in the scene in the gospels when Jesus turns these people away they say “...but Lord we have Done many mighty works in your name. But he will say depart from me you who work lawlessness ( without law or authority from God.) there are other works mentioned in the Bible ( works of the flesh-Galatians) but the most important one you need to remember is that there are also works of God. These works are those that come from God not men and they are commanded by God and they are approved by God. Faith is this kind of wrk in John 6:29. In fact, the Holy Spirit says this is the work of God that you believe. So you are misleading people to say we are not saved by works at all. Plus you are contradicting yourself if you turn around and say we are saved by faith. Mark 12:24- “you do err not knowing the scriptures.”
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
8,354
2,301
113
#2
To say we are not saved by works is to say we are not saved by faith because the Bible says faith is a work. John 6:29.
That's a great way to misunderstand that verse.

So what was Jesus really saying? To paraphrase, what He was saying is that if you really want to do God's will, then you have to ABANDON all works to be justified by grace. You must simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

This corresponds to Romans 4:4,5: Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

And that is why we read this in Titus 3:5: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy [grace] he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
26,213
4,666
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#3
Faith is the outcome of the work of God in us; it is God's work, not our own.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--
and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
Ephesians 2:8
 
Mar 14, 2011
60,821
7,911
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#5
John 6:
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
 
Mar 14, 2011
60,821
7,911
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#6
It is God who brings us to faith by drawing us to himself through his word. His creation, The HS, and the people he brings into our lives.

We did not conjure up faith by our own power
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
2,848
845
113
#7
To say we are not saved by works is to say we are not saved by faith because the Bible says faith is a work. John 6:29.

To say we are not saved by works is misleading. There are at least 3 or 4 different kinds of works talked about in the Bible. Some works we are not saved by are the works of the Old Testament law of Moses. Galatians. To try to be justified by these you will fall from Grace. Another kind of work are the ones men boast about ( boastful works) these are works that come from men. That ORIGINATE with men. These are not works of God. Some that come to mind are “playing ball for Jesus” or selling chicken dinners to raise money for a good cause. Did Jesus tell you to do these things? Then they didn’t come from him. And we know they were boastful works because in the scene in the gospels when Jesus turns these people away they say “...but Lord we have Done many mighty works in your name. But he will say depart from me you who work lawlessness ( without law or authority from God.) there are other works mentioned in the Bible ( works of the flesh-Galatians) but the most important one you need to remember is that there are also works of God. These works are those that come from God not men and they are commanded by God and they are approved by God. Faith is this kind of wrk in John 6:29. In fact, the Holy Spirit says this is the work of God that you believe. So you are misleading people to say we are not saved by works at all. Plus you are contradicting yourself if you turn around and say we are saved by faith. Mark 12:24- “you do err not knowing the scriptures.”
There is a problem with the language "work".
Paul uses the term work in reference to obedience to the law of Moses, and doing all God has commanded
us. He states simply righteousness or justification does not come through this obedience but through faith
in Jesus.

Now if one means one has a response to revelation of God in our hearts is work, then Paul is saying we do this.
It is possible therefore to have a conversation, and actually be agreeing what following Jesus is, and yet be
disagreeing how to describe it.

It gets further complicated when some deny that we are empowered through the cleansing of our hearts to
walk in the ways of Jesus. They often deny repentance or sorrow for sin, or even that acknowledging the destructive
nature of sin is important in the body of Christ.

Jesus made things a little more complicated by saying our faith was a gift of revelation from God and a mark of
the Holy Spirit working in our hearts. He then goes on to say one sign of His followers is they love like He loves.

So it is actually hard to say faith is work, but rather faith is an action or reality which we can choose to follow
or deny. If we do not have faith then we cannot know God.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
6,542
2,358
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#8
Plus you are contradicting yourself if you turn around and say we are saved by faith. Mark 12:24- “you do err not knowing the scriptures.”
You make a statement followed by a verse.

Let's look at that verse and it's context.

Mark 12:24-27
24 Jesus replied, “Your mistake is that you don’t know the Scriptures, and you don’t know the power of God.25 For when the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage. In this respect they will be like the angels in heaven.
26 “But now, as to whether the dead will be raised—haven’t you ever read about this in the writings of Moses, in the story of the burning bush? Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, God said to Moses, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’27 So he is the God of the living, not the dead. You have made a serious error.”

The context here is that Jesus was asked questions about the resurrection concerning marriage at the resurrection by Sadducees.
They were the law.

Yet they did believe in a resurrection.
So to me it's a trick based on their theology.

Yet Jesus says

Mark 12:25-27
25 For when the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage. In this respect they will be like the angels in heaven.
26 “But now, as to whether the dead will be raised—haven’t you ever read about this in the writings of Moses, in the story of the burning bush? Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, God said to Moses, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’27 So he is the God of the living, not the dead. You have made a serious error.”

So you can't really quote the verse you did to prove the point you are trying to make.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
6,542
2,358
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#9
John 6:29
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 6:47
47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

The work of God is that we believe in him.

That is why the Holy Spirit came to convict us off the sin of unbelief in him.
Jesus said he would.
Therefore that is the work of God.

To me faith is not a work we do but a position we have in Jesus which will lead to works that Jesus has asked us to do, like feeding the poor and so on.
 
May 15, 2019
111
17
18
#10
That's a great way to misunderstand that verse.

So what was Jesus really saying? To paraphrase, what He was saying is that if you really want to do God's will, then you have to ABANDON all works to be justified by grace. You must simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

This corresponds to Romans 4:4,5: Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

And that is why we read this in Titus 3:5: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy [grace] he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Am I to assume then that you do not believe the Holy Spurit in John 6:29 when he said faith is a work? It doesn’t look like to me that that verse is saying “abandon all works”. Where is that in the verse? That is YOUR INTERPRETATION of the verse but that is not what the verse says. If you don’t recognize that there are different kinds of works in the Bible- some good and some bad then you have some problems reconciling Ephesians 2:9 and James 2:24 and many other verses. God’s word is always right and true whether You or I agree or not.
You make a statement followed by a verse.

Let's look at that verse and it's context.

Mark 12:24-27
24 Jesus replied, “Your mistake is that you don’t know the Scriptures, and you don’t know the power of God.25 For when the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage. In this respect they will be like the angels in heaven.
26 “But now, as to whether the dead will be raised—haven’t you ever read about this in the writings of Moses, in the story of the burning bush? Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, God said to Moses, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’27 So he is the God of the living, not the dead. You have made a serious error.”

The context here is that Jesus was asked questions about the resurrection concerning marriage at the resurrection by Sadducees.
They were the law.

Yet they did believe in a resurrection.
So to me it's a trick based on their theology.

Yet Jesus says

Mark 12:25-27
25 For when the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage. In this respect they will be like the angels in heaven.
26 “But now, as to whether the dead will be raised—haven’t you ever read about this in the writings of Moses, in the story of the burning bush? Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, God said to Moses, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’27 So he is the God of the living, not the dead. You have made a serious error.”

So you can't really quote the verse you did to prove the point you are trying to make.
My lifting that quote of Jesus and applying it to another misunderstanding of scripture does no harm to what Jesus was talking about in Mark.
John 6:29
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 6:47
47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

The work of God is that we believe in him.

That is why the Holy Spirit came to convict us off the sin of unbelief in him.
Jesus said he would.
Therefore that is the work of God.

To me faith is not a work we do but a position we have in Jesus which will lead to works that Jesus has asked us to do, like feeding the poor and so on.
I can only tell you what the Bible says. If you choose to deny it or not believe what it says then that is your choice. The problem is that you have been taught salvation by faith alone so that you cannot read a verse about faith and not add the word alone or only, at least in your mind. There are other things in the Bible that are necessary to salvation but you will never see them as such as long as you believe the false doctrine of faith only. James 2:24 says specificlly, NOT BY FAITH ONLY. But that is another passage you will have to reject if you believe in faith only. Other verses you will not believe will be ones like Romans 10:10 confession is made unto salvation; Nark 16:16 Belief AND BAPTISM equals salvation; 1peter 3:21 “...baptism now SAVES us...”; Luke 13:3,5 I tell you nay except you repent you will perish; and I could go on and on with at least that many more. None of these passages can be true lf according to you, salvation is by faith only. Why not forget that doctrine, it’s a doctrine of men and a lie that Satan wants people to believe just so they will not believe wha God has plainly said in the Bible. As long as you believe this you will not do what God wants you to do. Why not just take the Bible for what it says?
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
6,664
2,361
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#11
sigh

well not agreeing with this post though

I honestly have never heard this verse or chapter interpreted in such a way as to indicate that we work or faith is a work

that would make salvation our work and not the work of God

IMO, this just cancels out what you said in your other thread

smh
 
Dec 9, 2011
10,991
823
113
#12
To say we are not saved by works is to say we are not saved by faith because the Bible says faith is a work. John 6:29.

To say we are not saved by works is misleading. There are at least 3 or 4 different kinds of works talked about in the Bible. Some works we are not saved by are the works of the Old Testament law of Moses. Galatians. To try to be justified by these you will fall from Grace. Another kind of work are the ones men boast about ( boastful works) these are works that come from men. That ORIGINATE with men. These are not works of God. Some that come to mind are “playing ball for Jesus” or selling chicken dinners to raise money for a good cause. Did Jesus tell you to do these things? Then they didn’t come from him. And we know they were boastful works because in the scene in the gospels when Jesus turns these people away they say “...but Lord we have Done many mighty works in your name. But he will say depart from me you who work lawlessness ( without law or authority from God.) there are other works mentioned in the Bible ( works of the flesh-Galatians) but the most important one you need to remember is that there are also works of God. These works are those that come from God not men and they are commanded by God and they are approved by God. Faith is this kind of wrk in John 6:29. In fact, the Holy Spirit says this is the work of God that you believe. So you are misleading people to say we are not saved by works at all. Plus you are contradicting yourself if you turn around and say we are saved by faith. Mark 12:24- “you do err not knowing the scriptures.”
From the Thread Faith Is a work.

Romans 11:6-7
King James Version

6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
6,542
2,358
113
#13
I can only tell you what the Bible says. If you choose to deny it or not believe what it says then that is your choice.
That's all I can do as well.
But as you say it's your choice.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
6,542
2,358
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#14
Am I to assume then that you do not believe the Holy Spurit in John 6:29 when he said faith is a work? It doesn’t look like to me that that verse is saying “abandon all works”. Where is that in the verse? That is YOUR INTERPRETATION of the verse but that is not what the verse says. If you don’t recognize that there are different kinds of works in the Bible- some good and some bad then you have some problems reconciling Ephesians 2:9 and James 2:24 and many other verses. God’s word is always right and true whether You or I agree or not.


My lifting that quote of Jesus and applying it to another misunderstanding of scripture does no harm to what Jesus was talking about in Mark.


I can only tell you what the Bible says. If you choose to deny it or not believe what it says then that is your choice. The problem is that you have been taught salvation by faith alone so that you cannot read a verse about faith and not add the word alone or only, at least in your mind. There are other things in the Bible that are necessary to salvation but you will never see them as such as long as you believe the false doctrine of faith only. James 2:24 says specificlly, NOT BY FAITH ONLY. But that is another passage you will have to reject if you believe in faith only. Other verses you will not believe will be ones like Romans 10:10 confession is made unto salvation; Nark 16:16 Belief AND BAPTISM equals salvation; 1peter 3:21 “...baptism now SAVES us...”; Luke 13:3,5 I tell you nay except you repent you will perish; and I could go on and on with at least that many more. None of these passages can be true lf according to you, salvation is by faith only. Why not forget that doctrine, it’s a doctrine of men and a lie that Satan wants people to believe just so they will not believe wha God has plainly said in the Bible. As long as you believe this you will not do what God wants you to do. Why not just take the Bible for what it says?
Why not tell me what you think God wants me to do.

Just give a list, don't worry about the Bible verses.

As far as I can see you say it's the work of faith that saves us.
I say faith saves which leads to the works set before us as a result of faith.

The quote from Mark does harm your case because you quoted it to make your case (which I don't yet get) because you took it out of context to prove your case.

What I don't get is that you say faith is a work then quote the wrong kind of works, therefore the works that save us is our work of faith.

But now I see you say that BAPTISM saves us.

So please add to the list of what else saves us, the works that save us.

Ta
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
6,542
2,358
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#15
Am I to assume then that you do not believe the Holy Spurit in John 6:29 when he said faith is a work? It doesn’t look like to me that that verse is saying “abandon all works”. Where is that in the verse?
Yes the assumption you make is correct.
But your assumption is also incorrect.

John 6:29
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Where does it say abandon all works.
It doesn't talk "all works" that are set before us as a result of faith.

The verse states a said by Jesus, infilled by the Holy Spirit "This is the work of God"
Jesus being part of the trinity.
Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
27,470
1,767
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#16
To say we are not saved by works is misleading.
You have done your share of misleading. Do you mind sharing your church affiliation in terms of denomination, even if it is non-denom, or no church?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
22,976
4,989
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#17
Just as an aside, does anyone happen to know what the forum record is for unanimous disagreement?




Screenshot_20190610-141108.jpg
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
27,470
1,767
113
#20
Psalms 133:1
Behold, how good and how pleasant [it is] For brethren to dwell together in unity!

;)
I just hope I didn't pressure any of that 'unity' and it was your own 'God given' volition. (he he)