FALLING FROM GRACE; WHAT IT MEANS AND HOW YOU FALL

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UnderGrace

Guest


Hi UnderGrace,
:D I'm guessing it is assuming a person has listened to the message and is then making a profession. Like Billy Graham or any other preacher who has given the message of salvation to a lot of people. Again., I have no problem with it at all. And surly imo it doesn't make someone a heretic. But I can see by Polly's estimation it does put someone up there in the heretic circle so not sure what else to say. :confused:

Agreed heretic is silly word to use since we are not even catholic and it is not the middle ages.:D lol
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Well yes but what does it mean He died for us, I am wondering if this is the full gospel really? Why did He die and who is Jesus? I think all these things need to be explained

They were for me.
Well for me - I knew I was a sinner for sure..I didn't have to know the whole story.....lol.

When we look at the word for word examples of the gospel being preached by Peter and Paul in Acts 10 and Acts 13 - we just hear a simple gospel of Christ dying and being raised from the dead.

And the Holy Spirit came upon those listening in Acts 10:43-44 when they heard this. "that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives the forgiveness of sins".
 
L

ladylynn

Guest
Agreed heretic is silly word to use since we are not even catholic and it is not the middle ages.:D lol


LOL Thou art quite right dear sister UnderGrace. Thou hast made much sense in this matter before us.
:D
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
Well for me - I knew I was a sinner for sure..I didn't have to know the whole story.....lol.

When we look at the word for word examples of the gospel being preached by Peter and Paul in Acts 10 and Acts 13 - we just hear a simple gospel of Christ dying and being raised from the dead.

And the Holy Spirit came upon those listening in Acts 10:43-44 when they heard this. "that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives the forgiveness of sins".

I am understanding what you are saying, however this is what is recorded it does not mean that this is all they said.

We have the whole new testament, the whole picture. While I agree that just banging people on the head about their sins is not the full story either and perhaps not even the best way to the deliver the message.

I think we need to give a good picture that Jesus is God, that he died for each persons sins, that none of us can meet His perfect standard, we each owe a debt and He paid that debt and He did this because of His complete love for us, that definitely is important too!! The also need to know that this has eternal consequences. We should not hold back, the person who is looking will find, God has promised that! Amen!
 
Nov 22, 2015
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I have read it several times and I think the prayer does lack information and understanding. It does not clearly state what Jesus accomplished, how can someone believe and accept if they do not understand the work and why it happened?

I find it interesting that the first words are thanking Jesus for what He accomplished, when the person has yet to even come to understand or really accept the gift of salvation.
Most likely on the website the whole story and message of Jesus is being told - we are only seeing one small portion of which is the prayer to receive Jesus.

I don't think we have to in our prayer to receive Christ say the whole plan of redemption. Whosoever calls upon the Name of the Lord will be saved.

Actually if you look at Cornelius and his household in Acts 10 - you will see that they didn't say anything but they obviously believed because later when Peter was telling the story - he said that God who "knows the heart" testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit.

God saw "belief in their heart" when they listened to the words of Peter and that their sins were forgiven when they believed in Christ.

Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

 
Nov 22, 2015
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I am understanding what you are saying, however this is what is recorded it does not mean that this is all they said.

We have the whole new testament, the whole picture. While I agree that just banging people on the head about their sins is not the full story either and perhaps not even the best way to the deliver the message.

I think we need to give a good picture that Jesus is God, that he died for each persons sins, that none of us can meet His perfect standard, we each owe a debt and He paid that debt and He did this because of His complete love for us, that definitely is important too!! The also need to know that this has eternal consequences. We should not hold back, the person who is looking will find, God has promised that! Amen!
Well personally I would have to go with what was recorded as being said and not try to make something else up other then what has been said ( Paul said the same thing in Acts 13 ) but I do understand where you are coming from....:).

I think there is much to learn after we come to Christ anyway and we don't have to know it all before we believe that our sins are forgiven. We don't need to know the "mechanism" of salvation to be saved.

I agree that there is so much to learn about the love of God for us and you are absolutely right - no one can meet His standard and we do need a Savior and we have One. Amen!

 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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That does explain why we have trouble communicating, because I don't see grace as a spirit....Or Truth as a spirit or Faith as a spirit. Or Fear as a spirit....


I am not filled with many spirits with those names.

Grace, faith, truth are attributes given from God to us and not individual spirits...the only Spirit we have as children of God is the Holy Spirit.

Maybe someone can explain it...personally I am going to pray because this concept of many spirits is somewhat alarming and my red flags just jumped up.
Alarming?
Red flags?
Are you sure you're not mistaking those red flags for "hate flags"?
If the bible calls them spirits, then they are spirits.
And what's the big deal with believing that?
Anyone going to lose their salvation over it?
Aren't angels called spirits?

Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

What about demonic spirits?

1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Notice the spirit became its name.
And so it is with all spirits that affect the mind.
How do you think many get delivered?
What about the legion of demons in the man of Gadara? Why did the head demon call himself legion? Because, he said, "we are many".
I also gave scripture for the Spirit of truth.
Are you saying that it is not a real spirit either?
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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So is that a yes or a no....many spirits with different names or One Holy Spirit called with different names?
Luk 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.
Luk 13:12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
Luk 13:13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.
Luk 13:14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.
Luk 13:15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?
Luk 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

Mat 12:22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.

Luk 11:14 And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered.


Mat 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
Mat 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
Mat 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.



notice Jesus calls this dumb spirit and the beelzebub, satan.
It is clear that they are spirits apart from the devil, but Jesus calls them satan.
Could it be the same with the various spirits of God that the bible mentions?
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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Okay thanks, going back to figuring out what know1 believes.
You could try asking me, it might help your figuring it out.
To put it simply. If the bible calls them spirits, then to me, they are literal spirits. Not attributes.
The bible shows that spirits can multiply themselves, similar to the way a fruit tree multiplies itself through its' seeds.
Why do you think Abraham is called our father? Or why the bible say we have the same spirit of faith? The spirit of faith that was on Abraham was the parent of all the other spirit that came from it. It produces seed after its own kind.

Num 11:17 And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.

The word, "of", literally means, 'a part of'.
So God took a part of the spirit that was on Abraham and put the parts He took and put it on the seventy elders.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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Sorry you misunderstand, I believe in One Holy spirit....not many spirits given by God

Here you can re-read the words that have me puzzled, I will bold the troubling parts....

Quoted know1



You see I get the impression that know1 believes God gives people many "spirits" not just One Holy spirit and the name of one of theses spirits is grace....that's how she thinks you can lose grace?

Not sure, find the idea very puzzling.
Excuse me ma'am, but I am not a she, but a he.
And it's not puzzling, it's quite simple.
This is one of the subject God told me about, then lead me through many scriptures.
Where did we all come from?
What about our spirit man?
Didn't you come from God?
But are you the Holy Spirit?
What about the angels?
They came from God, but they are not the Holy spirit either.
What about the seven Spirits of God?
Are they just the Holy Spirit with seven different personality traits?
I tell you, there is more than just the Holy Ghost out there, and the bible is full of examples.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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once again.

A legalist is a person who claims eternal life is based on ones actions, or how well they obey God, or how "less" they sin.

if this fits you (which it does from what everyone here sees) then please do not judge others for judging what is true.

If it is not you (we could be wrong) then you have judged falsely.

The issue with sin is it is easy to name th ebig ones, as you said, and not do them, Everyone knows they are wrong.

It is hard to think that if one knows to do something and does not do it, to him it is sin (evil in the eyes of a holy, just and righteous God) That those times when we chose to serve self and not others That to him that is sin (evil in the eyes of a holy, just and righteous God)

it is called watering down the law.

Now they get mad at us people who claim we are foolish to think we can stop sin and live up to Gods perfect standard (out of humility) then when confronted, they must admit, They still sin also.

Talk about hypocrisy.

I have to be honest here. EG intention is to make me into a legalist. He will not actually
discuss the real issues but go to "safe" texts to attempt to slander and lie about me.

Now let us take this point.

All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.
1 John 5:17


If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.
James 4:17

Now we are called to do good things. James is emphasising if something good is possible
you are set up to do it, and then you refuse, that is sin.

The problem with this phrase though commendable is so open, weak minded people will
think of "good" things they could do, and for whatever reason have not, and condemn
themselves constantly. Walking down the street you could clean everyones front garden.
It would be a good thing to do. But you do not do it, so are sinning.

This is such an infinite phrase other than the specific rebellion situation it does not work.

But it is a proof text of what it is to be righteous and follow Christ? No, it is a feeble excuse
to not obey Christ over the commands to love ones enemy, love ones friends and family, to die
for the church.

And this is my frustration. What a pathetic response to Christ and His glorious freedom, to bind
people to sin and condemnation. You are not perfect, you see good things and do not do them
so you are totally lost and hopeless.

Jesus says you are perfect as you are, worthy and loved, pure and holy, walking in the Spirit,
knowing the glorious things of heaven so do not let the accuser rob you of them.

And it is only the accuser who comes with this continual irrelevant junk to condemn and pester
the weak minded.

Jesus criticised the pharisees for not loving from the heart, ignoring forgiveness, justice and
faithfulness. And how many of these preachers are divorced, have been unfaithful and find
commitment in their lives a serious problem, too many.

So out of this pit of failure and condemnation there is no real wisdom or truth, only excuses
for the pitiable failure of their lives and ability to resolve their inner conflicts while condemning
everyone else who does not agree with them.

What is staggering is I have no beef with them, I just want people to know the empowerment
of Christs love in their hearts. It is obvious these people know nothing of this in their lives
and desperately want to excuse their failure onto a theology of appeasement.

But this is the real fruit of their lives, not victory, or repentance but excuses.

So I will continue to listen to Christ and not to these lawless hyper-legalists.
It is such a deceptive poison, to appear to be preaching freedom, but actually real condemnation.

Truly they will say to Christ, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?"

And Christs response will be "Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"

matt 7:22-23

I write this as a testimony against you, because though you claim to see you
are blind, though you claim to hear you are deaf.

Obey Christ or be rejected.

To those with a weak mind this is not being a legalist, a legalist believes following
the law justifies them, Jesus says obeying Him brings us freedom.

And I know this works and is true. He is the light of the world, showing the light
out of sinful behaviour into righteousness and purity.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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Sorry for the long posts, but I feel obligated to respond to obvious lying and
miss representation.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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Well not puffed up, you are just on the defensive and you are feeling attacked, I personally have many problems with JP's teachings, even though on occasion I have learned from him, I just think using MacArthur is not going defeat any of Prince's teaching only scripture will do that. Proceed as you like.:)
For someone who claims they don't fully believe in JP, you sure seem to take up for him.:)
BTW..... the way you're talking about MacAuthur according to HG'ers is heretic hunting..... BUSTED!:p
 
Aug 15, 2009
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This is one of my favorite messages about grace leading to repentance. Thanks for posting this Grace777. PollyAnna., you owe it to yourself to hear from JP himself and what he actually says about repentance., not what someone else said he says.

I was taught in my church not to listen to certain preachers and teachers but to condemn them to anyone who listens to them based on what our pastor said. He meant well and wanted to protect us., but before we can have a real personal opinion about something OR someone that we go and talk to other people about, we need to base it on our own listening and not solely on someone else's.

For instance our church told us not listen to Christian radio and guys like Chuck Swindoll and Dr.David Jerimiah, Charles Stanley.,Bill Pierce., Dr. James Dobson. etc.. Needless to say we kept listening to Christian radio in our home and found our pastor to be wrong in that as well as some of his other teachings and or opinions and ideas. We had been listening for weeks before we even mentioned it to our Pastor so we had a chance to actually hear these preachers before our pastor scared us into not even considering listening to them. I'm so thankful we did.


See the middle of the stage? David Jeremiah's church.
Your pastor is a lot smarter than you give him credit for.:)
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
For someone who claims they don't fully believe in JP, you sure seem to take up for him.:)
BTW..... the way you're talking about MacAuthur according to HG'ers is heretic hunting..... BUSTED!:p

Well I think exposing false teaching supported with Scripture is different than being a heretic hunter. The problem is the message board is not really set up for discussing false teaching and rightly dividing the word, it more of a place just to banter.

I will admit absolutely to you and anyone else that while I absolutely believe that scripture teaches we are eternally saved, because God declares us justified when we are born again, when Joseph Prince teaches this clearly I support him.

MacArthur to me has a mixed Lordship message that I do not believe scripture supports.

I will also say, I definitely part company with JP on his teaching on healing on demand, Christians not getting get sick and that God does not discipline of His children, communion and healing and many other things. I think these ideas are totally unfounded in scripture

So I myself have never used the word heretic but I will talk about false teaching and sometimes even false teachers which I think there are many, who are so blatantly obvious on the world stage one would have to have no knowledge of scripture not to see it.

But you can say busted if you like ...if is makes you happy and you want to gloat. Stephen you crack me up really you do!;)
 
Aug 15, 2009
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When Jehovah's Witnesses say "we believe the same thing you do"..... we know they're still a cult.
When Mormons declare "we believe the same thing you do"..... we know they're still a cult.

What do they do to try to fool us? They tell us they believe the same thing we do, while changing the definitions of core doctrines. They twist the Scriptures to say what they want.

Micah 3:9-12 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Now hear this, heads of the house of Jacob And rulers of the house of Israel, Who abhor justice And twist everything that is straight, [SUP]10 [/SUP]Who build Zion with bloodshed And Jerusalem with violent injustice. [SUP]11[/SUP]Her leaders pronounce judgment for a bribe, Her priests instruct for a price. And her prophets divine for money. Yet they lean on the LORD saying, "Is not the LORD in our midst? Calamity will not come upon us." [SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, on account of you Zion will be plowed as a field, Jerusalem will become a heap of ruins, And the mountain of the temple will become high places of a forest.

The greatest judgement of all will come to the fallen church who currently does the same thing.

When a group says "we believe the same thing" & then changes the meanings of terms in core doctrines, THEY ARE A CULT.

Hypergracers believe in grace, but not the one of the Bible. They believe like JP, you should always preach on their "version" of grace. Nothing else matters.
Hypergracers believe in repentance, but not the one in the Bible. They also believe you only repent once, for Jesus took care of all the future sins.
Hypergracers believe in faith, but one without works. Their version is only believing in what Christ did. They don't believe we should follow the laws He established. They believe that faith only in God's grace is necessary. Obedience is works, & therefore legalism.
Hypergracers believe in Joseph Prince, in everything he teaches. While others can be wrong at times, he is not.

2 Peter 2:4-22 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; [SUP]5 [/SUP]and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; [SUP]6 [/SUP]and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; [SUP]7 [/SUP]and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men [SUP]8 [/SUP](for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), [SUP]9 [/SUP]then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties, [SUP]11 [/SUP]whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord. [SUP]12 [/SUP]But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, [SUP]13 [/SUP]suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you, [SUP]14 [/SUP]having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children; [SUP]15 [/SUP]forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; [SUP]16 [/SUP]but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet. [SUP]17 [/SUP]These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, [SUP]19[/SUP]promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. [SUP]22 [/SUP]It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

The context says they "went back". The context says they will go to Hell. The context says they are greedy. They are slaves to sin, & so are their converts. The context says their final judgement will be worse than the first, meaning when they were still sinners.

Hypergracers changed all the definitions of biblical terms relating to salvation, and yet they're NOT a cult? Why? Because they seem "christian"? So do Jehovah's witnesses, Mormons, & SDA's. HG'ers ALSO SAY there's no falling away of the church, the great deception that will bring the worst wrath God has ever sent. Gee, I wonder why.....

Is there a difference? Yes there is..... Hypergracers have infiltrated the church, while these others stay separate.

You can be sure those who cause the most damage to the church will receive the stricter judgement.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest


See the middle of the stage? David Jeremiah's church.
Your pastor is a lot smarter than you give him credit for.:)

Are you referencing the All Seeing Eye and who is this in response to, just curious?
 
Nov 22, 2015
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When Jehovah's Witnesses say "we believe the same thing you do"..... we know they're still a cult.
When Mormons declare "we believe the same thing you do"..... we know they're still a cult.

What do they do to try to fool us? They tell us they believe the same thing we do, while changing the definitions of core doctrines. They twist the Scriptures to say what they want.

Micah 3:9-12 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Now hear this, heads of the house of Jacob And rulers of the house of Israel, Who abhor justice And twist everything that is straight, [SUP]10 [/SUP]Who build Zion with bloodshed And Jerusalem with violent injustice. [SUP]11[/SUP]Her leaders pronounce judgment for a bribe, Her priests instruct for a price. And her prophets divine for money. Yet they lean on the LORD saying, "Is not the LORD in our midst? Calamity will not come upon us." [SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, on account of you Zion will be plowed as a field, Jerusalem will become a heap of ruins, And the mountain of the temple will become high places of a forest.

The greatest judgement of all will come to the fallen church who currently does the same thing.

When a group says "we believe the same thing" & then changes the meanings of terms in core doctrines, THEY ARE A CULT.

Hypergracers believe in grace, but not the one of the Bible. They believe like JP, you should always preach on their "version" of grace. Nothing else matters.
Hypergracers believe in repentance, but not the one in the Bible. They also believe you only repent once, for Jesus took care of all the future sins.
Hypergracers believe in faith, but one without works. Their version is only believing in what Christ did. They don't believe we should follow the laws He established. They believe that faith only in God's grace is necessary. Obedience is works, & therefore legalism.
Hypergracers believe in Joseph Prince, in everything he teaches. While others can be wrong at times, he is not.

2 Peter 2:4-22 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; [SUP]5 [/SUP]and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; [SUP]6 [/SUP]and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; [SUP]7 [/SUP]and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men [SUP]8 [/SUP](for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), [SUP]9 [/SUP]then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties, [SUP]11 [/SUP]whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord. [SUP]12 [/SUP]But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, [SUP]13 [/SUP]suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you, [SUP]14 [/SUP]having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children; [SUP]15 [/SUP]forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; [SUP]16 [/SUP]but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet. [SUP]17 [/SUP]These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, [SUP]19[/SUP]promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. [SUP]22 [/SUP]It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

The context says they "went back". The context says they will go to Hell. The context says they are greedy. They are slaves to sin, & so are their converts. The context says their final judgement will be worse than the first, meaning when they were still sinners.

Hypergracers changed all the definitions of biblical terms relating to salvation, and yet they're NOT a cult? Why? Because they seem "christian"? So do Jehovah's witnesses, Mormons, & SDA's. HG'ers ALSO SAY there's no falling away of the church, the great deception that will bring the worst wrath God has ever sent. Gee, I wonder why.....

Is there a difference? Yes there is..... Hypergracers have infiltrated the church, while these others stay separate.

You can be sure those who cause the most damage to the church will receive the stricter judgement.
It's obvious you have no idea what believers in the grace of Christ believe in. You have "twisted" so much of what is really believed and it boils down to the fact that it's what you "perceive" is being said because your religious upbringing has blinded your mind to hear and see the gospel for what it really is. It really is Good News!

You think you are "defending the faith" but in reality you are "defending your religious traditions" and these "sacred cows" being sacrificed are hurting.

For example: No one that believes in the grace of Christ says "obedience is legalism". That's foolishness and a complete fabrication and an obvious "twisting " of your perception of things.

I know...I was like you once but thank God for His great mercy to reveal the Lord Jesus Christ and His great salvation to me. I will be eternally thankful to Him for His faithfulness. He will be faithful to you too. He's coming to reveal His true self to you. I'm excited for you!
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
When Jehovah's Witnesses say "we believe the same thing you do"..... we know they're still a cult.
When Mormons declare "we believe the same thing you do"..... we know they're still a cult.

What do they do to try to fool us? They tell us they believe the same thing we do, while changing the definitions of core doctrines. They twist the Scriptures to say what they want.

Micah 3:9-12 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Now hear this, heads of the house of Jacob And rulers of the house of Israel, Who abhor justice And twist everything that is straight, [SUP]10 [/SUP]Who build Zion with bloodshed And Jerusalem with violent injustice. [SUP]11[/SUP]Her leaders pronounce judgment for a bribe, Her priests instruct for a price. And her prophets divine for money. Yet they lean on the LORD saying, "Is not the LORD in our midst? Calamity will not come upon us." [SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, on account of you Zion will be plowed as a field, Jerusalem will become a heap of ruins, And the mountain of the temple will become high places of a forest.

The greatest judgement of all will come to the fallen church who currently does the same thing.

When a group says "we believe the same thing" & then changes the meanings of terms in core doctrines, THEY ARE A CULT.

Hypergracers believe in grace, but not the one of the Bible. They believe like JP, you should always preach on their "version" of grace. Nothing else matters.
Hypergracers believe in repentance, but not the one in the Bible. They also believe you only repent once, for Jesus took care of all the future sins.
Hypergracers believe in faith, but one without works. Their version is only believing in what Christ did. They don't believe we should follow the laws He established. They believe that faith only in God's grace is necessary. Obedience is works, & therefore legalism.
Hypergracers believe in Joseph Prince, in everything he teaches. While others can be wrong at times, he is not.

2 Peter 2:4-22 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; [SUP]5 [/SUP]and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; [SUP]6 [/SUP]and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; [SUP]7 [/SUP]and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men [SUP]8 [/SUP](for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), [SUP]9 [/SUP]then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties, [SUP]11 [/SUP]whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord. [SUP]12 [/SUP]But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, [SUP]13 [/SUP]suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you, [SUP]14 [/SUP]having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children; [SUP]15 [/SUP]forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; [SUP]16 [/SUP]but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet. [SUP]17 [/SUP]These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, [SUP]19[/SUP]promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. [SUP]22 [/SUP]It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

The context says they "went back". The context says they will go to Hell. The context says they are greedy. They are slaves to sin, & so are their converts. The context says their final judgement will be worse than the first, meaning when they were still sinners.

Hypergracers changed all the definitions of biblical terms relating to salvation, and yet they're NOT a cult? Why? Because they seem "christian"? So do Jehovah's witnesses, Mormons, & SDA's. HG'ers ALSO SAY there's no falling away of the church, the great deception that will bring the worst wrath God has ever sent. Gee, I wonder why.....

Is there a difference? Yes there is..... Hypergracers have infiltrated the church, while these others stay separate.

You can be sure those who cause the most damage to the church will receive the stricter judgement.



Well I believe that grace is an active presence in the believer's life to help overcome sin.

Cor 14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you.

These are not just words they are real and active presence of God.

You say so many things in your post, so do you think Jesus died to only some of our sins?