First Resurrection Part 2

RachelBibleStudent · Nov 28, 2011

there is no scholarly debate about the authenticity of matthew 27:52-53...it is original... it seems like you are just rejecting it because it doesn't fit into your doctrine... but if a scripture doesn't fit your doctrine...that is a reason to reject your doctrine...not the scripture...

enoch did not die...the bible says he 'did not experience death' in hebrews 11:5

believers who die are not dead...jesus says God is not the God of the dead but the living...they are alive...

AnandaHya · Nov 28, 2011

RachelBibleStudent said:

Why was Jesus persecuted?

Does that make Him less of the reigning King?

what do you think reigning Christians should look like before the New Earth and the New Heaven?

here's what I always envisioned:

Matthew 23:11
But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant.

John 15:20
Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.

RachelBibleStudent · Nov 28, 2011

AnandaHya said:

Why was Jesus persecuted?

Does that make Him less of the reigning King?

what do you think reigning Christians should look like before the New Earth and the New Heaven?

here's what I always envisioned:

Matthew 23:11
But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant.

John 15:20
Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.

jesus isn't persecuted now though...

reigning christians should not be persecuted...

AnandaHya · Nov 28, 2011

RachelBibleStudent said:

then how do you explain these verses?

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

AnandaHya · Nov 28, 2011

RachelBibleStudent said:

if they are in Heaven with Jesus they are not being persecuted.

again I do not equate being born again with the first resurrection.

though I am studying that angle or intepretation of scriptures.

AnandaHya · Nov 28, 2011

RachelBibleStudent said:

we agree on this point at least

"If scripture doesn't fit your doctrine, that is a reason to reject your doctrine, not the scripture"

RachelBibleStudent · Nov 28, 2011

AnandaHya said:

i don't think that verse was intended to be applied without exception... i believe it is more of a general rule...unless you are one of the very rare exceptions we will all die and be judged someday...

for example jesus was a man and he died...but he was not judged...

as another example the people who live to see judgment day will not die before their judgment...

AnandaHya · Nov 28, 2011

shroom2 said:

yes that is the question. I believe they went to Heaven. the Bible mentions them in Revelations

revelations 6
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

no everyone who died is not dead, they are alive if they died in Christ.

They are alive even BEFORE the millennial kingdom (if you want to take that literally)

see these passages in Revelations?

Revelations 7
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“ Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters.[c] And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

or do you believe this is after or during the 1,000 years?

the scene is in Heaven not Earth.

2knowhim · Nov 28, 2011

Ok,..... I'm baaaacckkkk,

So What is the Lake of fire to ya'll, and where is it?

AnandaHya · Nov 28, 2011

2knowhim said:

why don't you start a thread about it?

this one is on the first resurrection and related scriptures.

journey41 · Nov 29, 2011

RachelBibleStudent said:

[/QUOTE]They did Rachael. You are on the right track. They were resurrected in the flesh. Just like Lazarus. They died again.

Those graves opening were a witness of Gods anger. The people around there were afraid, for they would of thought twice about what they had just done in murdering their Lord....

Jesus is the preeminence. The first born of the dead. Those people in their graves came out on the day Jesus was crucified.

Jesus rose three days later.

Would it make sense that they were resurrected before Christ?
If that were the case then Jesus wasn't the firstborn of the dead then and the scripture lies.

journey41 · Nov 29, 2011

[

[/QUOTE]It's like an incinerator. Everything unclean & defiled will melt & be destroyed in there. Gone forever. Not even their dead bodies will hang around. Even hell (death) will be thrown in there and will be no more forever.

AnandaHya · Nov 29, 2011

journey41 said:

lets just ignore the scriptures and make them say what you want.... it says AFTER His resurrection.

Mat 26
52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

RachelBibleStudent · Nov 29, 2011

journey41 said:

actually i always thought those people coming out of their graves was kind of a 'preview' of the power of jesus' sacrifice...

shroom2 · Nov 29, 2011

RachelBibleStudent said:

Actually there is, but yes, those verses are in even the oldest manuscripts. As I said, I was sticking my neck out. I figured my statement would be pounced on.

Possibly. But if it is, it contradicts many other scripture stating when the dead will be resurrected.

I question the authenticity because it contradicts what the bible says in several other places.

The bible has to fit together. The bible plainly states that OT believers will be raised at the resurrection of the just, which is still future. If Matt 27:52-53 are authentic, there is a problem. Or at least I do not know the answer (entirely possible).

No, it does not. The NIV is a poor translation. The KJV says "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death;". The ESV says "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death".
God moved him, similar to how he moved Phillip in Acts 8.

Heb 11:13 says "these all died.."

Heb 9:27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die,

Enoch died.

No, they are not. Every man who has ever died is still dead, except Jesus Christ. Believers will be raised at the rapture (Christians) and the resurrection of the just (OT and trib saints).

Believing there is no such thing as death (or that death is simply a "separation") is believing the lie of satan, "you will NOT surely die".

journey41 · Nov 29, 2011

AnandaHya said:

journey41 said:

[/QUOTE]Yes it does, my mistake. Apologies, i missed that verse. It is so clear that it was after the resurrection and I stand corrected on this one. Can't argue against that! Thank you for pointing that out.

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 27:52 And the graves, were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

It does not say resurrected, it says came out of their graves. Their bodies came out of the graves. These ones went into Jerusalem and everyone saw them.

And everyone saw them...obviously they were in the flesh brought back to life, for it does not say resurrection, a strong word used to describe the quickening.

1 Corinth 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain.

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

journey41 · Nov 29, 2011

journey41 said:

Disregard this everybody. I was wrong. The people came out of their graves after Christ's resurrection, not on the same day. My apologies.

mpaper345 · Nov 30, 2011

cronjecj said:

hi cronjecj

Jesus will not rule over the new earth but rule over this earth,in Zechariah 14,for the obvious reasons.

8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be(Zechariah 14:8).

We see in Zechariah 14 that the earth Jesus rules over has living waters that go out from Jerusalem;half of them toward the former sea,and half of them toward the hinder sea;and there is seasons as indicated by summer and winter.

1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea(Revelation 21:1).

But in the new earth,the New Jerusalem,there is no sea,and there will be no seasons there either,for there is no sun or moon there,because it is all made of precious stones and gold,and seasons do not apply when you are with God in the New Jerusalem in a spiritual body.

16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles(Zechariah 14:16-19).

Also we see that the people that Jesus rules over are heathens that God spared that fought against Jerusalem,and are not Jesus' saints,and have to go up year after year to Jerusalem to worship Jesus,showing Jesus rules over them.
We see Jesus rules over the heathen,who have to go to Jerusalem to worship Jesus,and if they do not go to Jerusalem they have no rain.

27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life(Revelation 21:27).

13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness(2 Peter 3:13).

But we see in Revelation 21 and 2 Peter 3,that no sinner can be in the New Jerusalem,for it is a place where sin has never been and sin will never be,and there will be no rain in the New Jerusalem.

In Zechariah 14,the earth that Jesus rules over,and the people who Jesus rules over on that earth are heathens,but the New Jerusalem will have no heathens,for there will never be a sinner there,which it is saying in Zechariah 14 that Jesus rules over the earth,because it says the Lord will be King over all the earth,and He will be the only God recognized,and the heathen have to worship Him in Jerusalem every year,which can only be this earth and not the New Jerusalem.

Also the earth in Zechariah 14 that Jesus rules over has a sea,and seasons,and rain,which the New Jerusalem will not have these things,because the saints are in spiritual bodies,and the New Jerusalem is made of precious stones and gold,and has no need of physical elements.

It is obvious that God rules over the earth in Zechariah 14 for it says He rules over the earth,and it is obvious that it is this earth,and not the New Jerusalem.

If there is no physical reign of Jesus on earth,which God will step down on the Mount of Olives,which Jesus said when He comes back He will step down on the Mount of Olives,then explain Zechariah 14.

cronjecj · Dec 1, 2011

mpaper345

Jesus will destroy this old earth and make a new heaven and earth after the great white throne judgement upon His 2nd coming.

Look at the parable of the wheat and the weed what will happen at His coming and it will fit in with Revelation as soon as you realize the 1000 years is FIGURATIVE from the first advent to the second.

Did you read the first post on this thread?

Peace.

cronjecj · May 9, 2012

RachelBibleStudent said:

it doesn't matter persecution or not, we have a clear conscience.

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