Five Fold Ministry

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Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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#41
I don't see it.
The passage from Ephesians doesn't address the sense of smell nor taste.

All five professions as I see it pertain to the same calling and anointing to deliver the truth of God in the salvation message of Christ.

And like anything that is a precise pursuit or career, there are qualifications and bars to meet in order to be a good and righteous example.
Because in America the profession is tempting due to tax exempt status it also calls forth a lot of false people. They claim to be any one of those five forms of minister and for the money. And the prestige. It doesn't take long for those who read their Bible to listen to one of those people speak to know they're called by the money not by the spirit.

Pastors who's sermons center around money, pastors who's behavior and form of speech sounds like someone who needs Christ, not someone who should be teaching about Christ. Whoremongers that make the news. Greedy sorts that brag about their wealth from the pulpit. They're sermonizers alright but for that other side.
I would think that you are accurate about all offices using all of their natural senses to proclaim the gospel. But wondered beings the different ministry offices focus at times on specific areas, if God may bestow upon those He chooses to work in them differing measures of a spiritual gift(s) to accomplish their work. As I mentioned I have not studied it out yet.
I did find it interesting, however, that the Pastor and Teacher Ministry's seem to have a connection in the scripture (Eph 4:11) and that human taste and smell work together to enhance the experience of the consumption of food. Taste is achieved by 80% of smell. Knowing that God's Word is spiritual food required for a healthy spirit and natural food is needed to keep our natural body healthy is intriguing. I have no idea if these thoughts are going anywhere. But, if so, He will give increase (revelation) from His Word. I just enjoy being a willing vessel and allowing Him to confirm or correct; thereby growth can occur. Only God knows.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
3,617
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#42
Natural taste and smell allows one that is being fed to define what ingredients are in the food they are eating. Food with all good ingredients should be ingested. Food that has some spoiled ingredients should not be consumed. Likewise, in the spiritual realm.

"O, Taste and See that the Lord is Good!..." Psalm 34:8
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
18,513
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#43
What is the difference between a Prophet and the spiritual gift of Prophecy as seen in Corinthians?
THE GIFT
...To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy*; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues... (1 Cor 12:10)

THE ONES WITH THE GIFT
... And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets**, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues... (1 Cor 12:28)

* Strong's Concordance
prophéteia: prophecy
Original Word: προφητεία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: prophéteia
Phonetic Spelling: (prof-ay-ti'-ah)
Definition: prophecy
Usage: prophecy, prophesying; the gift of communicating and enforcing revealed truth.


** Strong's Concordance
prophétés: a prophet (an interpreter or forth-teller of the divine will)
Original Word: προφήτης, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: prophétés
Phonetic Spelling: (prof-ay'-tace)
Definition: a prophet (an interpreter or forth-teller of the divine will)
Usage: a prophet, poet; a person gifted at expositing divine truth.


It is critical to understand that prophecy was supernatural divine revelation, which means that the prophets spoke the words of the Holy Spirit. That is clearly stated by Peter (who was both an apostle and a prophet), and mentioned throughout Scripture:

2 PETER 1
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


"as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" can also be translated as "as they were borne along by the Holy Ghost". For an in depth understanding of this and Scripture, please read and study The Inspiration and Authority of the Bible by B. B. Warfield.

https://www.ligonier.org/store/the-inspiration-and-authority-of-the-bible-hardcover/
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
3,617
771
113
#44
THE GIFT
...To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy*; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues... (1 Cor 12:10)

THE ONES WITH THE GIFT
... And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets**, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues... (1 Cor 12:28)

* Strong's Concordance
prophéteia: prophecy
Original Word: προφητεία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: prophéteia
Phonetic Spelling: (prof-ay-ti'-ah)
Definition: prophecy
Usage: prophecy, prophesying; the gift of communicating and enforcing revealed truth.


** Strong's Concordance
prophétés: a prophet (an interpreter or forth-teller of the divine will)
Original Word: προφήτης, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: prophétés
Phonetic Spelling: (prof-ay'-tace)
Definition: a prophet (an interpreter or forth-teller of the divine will)
Usage: a prophet, poet; a person gifted at expositing divine truth.


It is critical to understand that prophecy was supernatural divine revelation, which means that the prophets spoke the words of the Holy Spirit. That is clearly stated by Peter (who was both an apostle and a prophet), and mentioned throughout Scripture:

2 PETER 1
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

"as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" can also be translated as "as they were borne along by the Holy Ghost". For an in depth understanding of this and Scripture, please read and study The Inspiration and Authority of the Bible by B. B. Warfield.

https://www.ligonier.org/store/the-inspiration-and-authority-of-the-bible-hardcover/
So if I understand from the Strong's Concordance information, a prophet receives revelation of divine truth, and then has the ability to explain those complicated ideas or theories to others. And the gift of prophecy is not necessarily communicating a formulated idea by rather being a vessel that the Holy Spirit flows through to communicate to others.
 
M

Miri

Guest
#45
Just another thought. Smell is very important to God
several times the bible mentions aroma especially in regards
to the animal sacrifices. Plus also other incidents for example where
the perfume was poured over Jesus’ feet.

Smell and worship go together in the bible.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#46
You almost got an award for that answer.......until I came to the part where the Holy Spirit is supposed to be a fortune teller?
The 'things to come' part is in John 16:14.

Israelites were allowed to consult prophets of the Lord, but not soothsayers, necromancers, and those who practiced divination. Saul went to Samuel the prophet to find out what happened to his father's lost donkeys, and Samuel told him. I wonder how may lost sheep and donkeys Samuel told people where to find through prophecy.
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
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#47
The 'things to come' part is in John 16:14.

Israelites were allowed to consult prophets of the Lord, but not soothsayers, necromancers, and those who practiced divination. Saul went to Samuel the prophet to find out what happened to his father's lost donkeys, and Samuel told him. I wonder how may lost sheep and donkeys Samuel told people where to find through prophecy.
Good grief and I guess now I just "wonder" about you.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#48
There are twelve apostles of the Lamb but Ephesians 4 also tells of the gift of apostles given AFTER the ascension. So other apostles mentioned in scripture are Matthias, (Acts 1), Paul, Barnabas, (Acts 14:4, 14), and apparently Apollos (I Corinthians 3), Silvanus and Timothy (I Thessalonians 1:1, 2:6)
I got a notice of a thumbs down from the poster who goes by GraceAndTruth. I wonder why sonce every point I made was right out of the Bible.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#50
As far as the five senses and Epgesians 4:11 go, i think ot is good to s5ay away from speculative ideas ans teach what God has actually revealed.

Have you ever heard of four-fold ministry? In that verse, the way it is structured grammatically 'pastors and teachers' is supposed to refer to the same group.

I Corinthians 12:28 mentions 8 ministries. So I guess we can call this rhe 8- lfold ministry and treat that the central focus of the church. We could take the seven gifts of Romans 12:6-8 and have the seven-fold giftings. Do we have to trach about the eight senses, the eight fingers of the hand, the seven senses etc. about these numbers too.

In the body there are many gifts and ministries. Ephesians 4 is one passahe and mentions many of them. Exhorters should exhort like Romans 12 says, so we should make room for this in our church meetings. Those with psalms should sing psalms. Teachers should teach. Those with revelations should share them. Speakers in tongues and interpreters should speak. Let all things be done unto edifying. (I Corinthians 14:26). All in accordance with parameters for order in scripture, according to the 'commandments of the Lord for church meetings.'
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
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#51
I got a notice of a thumbs down from the poster who goes by GraceAndTruth. I wonder why sonce every point I made was right out of the Bible.
It has recently become popular to speak of “the five-fold ministry,” a system of church government with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. The neo-Pentecostal “Restoration” movement and its offshoot, “Kingdom now” teaching, claims that one of the things which God is “restoring” to the church is this five-fold ministry.

The sole proof text used to support this concept is Ephesians 4:11-13, which states that Christ gave “some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,….until we all attain to the unity of the faith and the full knowledge of the Son of God.” The word “until,” it is argued, proves that the church today needs apostles and prophets as much as evangelists, pastors, and teachers.

However, it is the “building up” of the church (v.12) which must continue until the church is mature, not all five of the offices listed in verse 11. This is clear when the whole text is read as follows: “And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers; [these offices were given] to equip the saints for the work of service, [which work has as its goal] to build up the body of Christ until we all attain to the unity of the faith….” The offices of apostle and prophet would naturally cease in the church once their role in “equipping the saints” was completed; that is, once the New Testament canon was completed.

Some have objected that there is no reason to bracket off the apostles and prophets from the other three offices listed in verse 11. However, in the very same epistle, Paul states that the church has “been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets” (Eph. 2:20) and that Christ’s mystery concerning the church was “revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit” (3:5). These statements indicate that the role of apostles and prophets was fulfilled in the first century.

The New Testament is particularly clear about the temporary role of the apostles, since they were chosen to give eyewitness testimony of the risen Christ (Acts 1:21-26; 5:32; Luke 1:104; 1 Cor. 9:1). Paul indicated that he was the last person to see the risen Christ and receive an apostolic commission (1 Cor. 15:8). The epistles of 2 Peter and Jude, among the very last New Testament writings to be penned, exhort the readers to avoid false doctrines by recalling the teachings of the apostles (2 Pet.1:12-15; 2:1; 3:2, 14-16; Jude 3-4, 17). Peter and Jude did not say, “Listen to the apostles living today,” but instead urged believers to “remember what the apostles said.”

I am not arguing that only the Twelve and Paul were apostles. Barnabas (Acts 14:14), Silas (1 Thess. 2:6; cf. 1:1), and Andronicus and Junia (Rom. 16:7) all were apostles of Christ, and thus were no doubt among the more than 500 witnesses to the Resurrection (1 Cor. 15:6). However, none of these persons was chosen as a successor to an earlier apostle (Matthias was Judas’s replacement, not his successor, since Judas had forsaken his apostleship, Acts 1:21-26).

There are other senses in which the word “apostle” is used in the New Testament. Certain individuals, including Epaphroditus, were “apostles of the churches” (2 Cor. 8:23; Phil. 2:25). These “apostles” had no authority over the church; they were messengers sent by and subject to their churches. In this latter sense it would be perfectly legitimate to speak of church representatives as “apostles,” were it not for the confusion which might result from such usage.

Therefore, in the usual biblical sense of the term, there are no apostles today. Nor are there any prophets in the usual sense, as they were part of the “foundation” laid in the first-century church. This is not to deny the continuing validity of the gift of “prophecy,” since Paul does refer to prophesying as a basic activity in which all Christians are urged to participate to the extent God gifts them (Rom. 12:6; 1 Cor. 11:4-5; 12:10; 13:2, 8-9; 14:1-6, 20-33; 1 Thess. 5:20), and in a general functional sense persons exercising this gift are even called “prophets” (1 Cor. 14:32,37). Yet Paul also speaks of specific persons who occupied an office of “prophet” which was second in authority only to apostle (1 Cor. 12:28-29). It is this office of “prophet,” not all prophecy, which I am arguing passed away around the end of the first century.

Finally, some errors on this matter are worse than others. The loose use of the word “apostle” to refer to missionaries or church planters is not a serious error as long as this usage is sharply distinguished from the concept of an apostle who brings new doctrinal revelations and wields unquestionable authority. Nor is it a grievous error to interpret Ephesians 4:11 to refer to “apostles” in this sense of a church planter. The same would apply to those who hold that Ephesians 4:11 refers to the ongoing charismatic activity of prophesying. I do believe these interpretations are mistaken, but they are not in any way antagonistic to Christian faith.

On the other hand, to interpret Ephesians 4:11 as a call for a restoration of the office of apostle of Christ is not only a mistake in exegesis, it opens the door to heresy. To claim that the church today needs visions and revelations through modern apostles and prophets of Christ is to deny the sufficiency of the Bible (2 Tim. 3:16) and to place the church at the mercy of false apostles, the likes of whom the apostle Paul warned us about in no uncertain terms (2 Cor. 11:13-15).

The teachers of the “five-fold ministry,” in seeking to “restore” a foundation which has never been moved, are actually laying a false foundation which will not support the building up of the body of Christ.
 

GraceAndTruth

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Sep 28, 2015
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#52
That information came direct from the Christian Research Institute that has been in the front lines combating heresies and cults for many years and have the best of reputations.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#53
It has recently become popular to speak of “the five-fold ministry,” a system of church government with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. The neo-Pentecostal “Restoration” movement and its offshoot, “Kingdom now” teaching, claims that one of the things which God is “restoring” to the church is this five-fold ministry.
I would not agree that 'five-fold ministry' or 'four-fold ministry' is synonymous with church government. I do not see prophets or evangelists as necessarily church government roles, though one could have these gifts and be an elder in the church. Paul doesn't tell Timothy or Titus, "The bishop must not be an evangelist" and elders giving themselves to preaching and teaching is honorable.

The sole proof text used to support this concept is Ephesians 4:11-13, which states that Christ gave “some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,….until we all attain to the unity of the faith and the full knowledge of the Son of God.” The word “until,” it is argued, proves that the church today needs apostles and prophets as much as evangelists, pastors, and teachers.
These ministries are mentioned in other passages except 'pastors and teachers.' I don't hold to what I would consider 'NAR' teachings on these ministries, but what that is is rather ill-defined. But compare NAR teachings on church government to the way the Reformed movement, for example, has set up its church government. Somewhere early on, bishop and elder/priest got divded into two roles, without much in the way of Biblical justification for it. Then the Reformed movement comes along, renames their priest/elders as 'pastors' and creates a lay board of theocratic city government elders in Geneva. The Scotts blow up that model into a national model, creating a new church government role of 'elder' in addition to their pastors-- which they eventually identified with Biblical elders. But later they identified Biblical elders with the new lay role they had created.

The Bible has a plurality of elders in the local church, and various individuals sent out through whose preaching new churches are started who are called 'apostles.' Elders were appointed from within their own local church. There were more than one of them, not a 'senior pastor' system. Protestantism usually hires pastors brought in from outside of the church. Sometimes little attetion is paid to whether these clergymen meet the Biblical qualification as long as they went to seminary. NAR understanding of apostleship may be a bit fuzzy in many cases, but is their five-fold ministry concept any further from scripture than traditional Protestantism.

However, it is the “building up” of the church (v.12) which must continue until the church is mature, not all five of the offices listed in verse 11. This is clear when the whole text is read as follows: “And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers; [these offices were given] to equip the saints for the work of service, [which work has as its goal] to build up the body of Christ until we all attain to the unity of the faith….” The offices of apostle and prophet would naturally cease in the church once their role in “equipping the saints” was completed; that is, once the New Testament canon was completed.
No, that doesn't naturally follow. That is an unsupported assertion.

Some have objected that there is no reason to bracket off the apostles and prophets from the other three offices listed in verse 11. However, in the very same epistle, Paul states that the church has “been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets” (Eph. 2:20) and that Christ’s mystery concerning the church was “revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit” (3:5). These statements indicate that the role of apostles and prophets was fulfilled in the first century.
The Jerusalem church had existed for decades before Paul laid the foundation in the church in Corinth. There are still a lot of unreached villages and even people's among whom the foundation must be laid.

{quote]
The New Testament is particularly clear about the temporary role of the apostles, since they were chosen to give eyewitness testimony of the risen Christ (Acts 1:21-26; 5:32; Luke 1:104; 1 Cor. 9:1). [/quote]

Flawed reasoning, at least in the context of the larger argument the author is trying to make. Acts 1:21-26 are qualifications specifically about replacing Judas, qualifications Paul did not meet-- and not qualifications, in general, for being an apostle. You need to fix the Luke citation, but that is likely qualifications for being one of the 12... just a guess without a verse. I Corinthians 9:1 does not say that one had to see the risen Christ to be an apostle. Having seen Christ, being free (and not a slave for example), and being an apostle were among Paul's qualifications for receiving support-- for living of the Gospel. If an apostle were imprisoned and turned into slave labor in a salt mine, he wouldn't lose his apostleship. Did John lose his apostleship before going to Patmos? Did Paul lose his apostleship in prison? Not according to his letters.

Paul indicated that he was the last person to see the risen Christ and receive an apostolic commission (1 Cor. 15:8).
And John saw Jesus after Paul wrote this.

The epistles of 2 Peter and Jude, among the very last New Testament writings to be penned, exhort the readers to avoid false doctrines by recalling the teachings of the apostles (2 Pet.1:12-15; 2:1; 3:2, 14-16; Jude 3-4, 17). Peter and Jude did not say, “Listen to the apostles living today,” but instead urged believers to “remember what the apostles said.”
Then John commended a church who tested those who claimed to be apostles. Why would the churches have to test them if they could just say, "You aren't one of these 19 or 21 individuals so you are not an apostle"? What would there be to test?

I am not arguing that only the Twelve and Paul were apostles. Barnabas (Acts 14:14), Silas (1 Thess. 2:6; cf. 1:1), and Andronicus and Junia (Rom. 16:7)
This ignores the ambiguity of whether Andronichus and Junia were notable apostles weren't apostles but were considered notable by apostles. He leaves out Timothy from the I Thessalonians 1:1 and 2:6 citation. It is unlikely that Timothy saw the risen Lord, at least before Paul did.

As far as apostles go, Jesus went into a mount and prayed. He came down, designated 12 of his disciples as 'apostles' and sent them out to preach, telling them to heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, and cast out devils. That's in Matthew. In another gospel, they are called 'apostles' (sent ones) after they return from the journey.

Then we see in Acts some prophets and teachers minister the Lord and fasting. The Spirit speaks and says to separate two men for the work to which he had called them. Then, the book suddenly starts refering to these two men who were sent out as 'apostles.' Compare this to Timothy who received a gift through prophecy with the laying on of hands of the elders.

Revelation speaks of prophesying as a future ministry, mentioning prophets and predicting prophesying in its future.

Nor is it a grievous error to interpret Ephesians 4:11 to refer to “apostles” in this sense of a church planter. The same would apply to those who hold that Ephesians 4:11 refers to the ongoing charismatic activity of prophesying. I do believe these interpretations are mistaken, but they are not in any way antagonistic to Christian faith.
It looks like your uncited author does not consider me to be in grievous error. Is this Hank Hannegraff? If he's now Eastern Orthodox, don't they refer to historical saints who introduced the Gospel to certain people's and nations as 'apostles' to those nations, like Cyrill and Methodius, apostles to the Slavs, Bulgars, etc. or Gregory, Apostle to the Armenians?

The author's case is based on too many assumptions not found in scripture. Since I do not share these assumptions, I do not find his argument convincing.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
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#54
Without wanting to be a wet blanket, I think any correlation between five-fold ministry and the five senses is purely coincidental. As Scripture doesn't link them, any alleged correlation will be the invention of the commentator...
Totally agree...
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
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#55
Presidente.......in answer to your long post that I did not read.........:sleep:
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#56
Presidente.......in answer to your long post that I did not read.........:sleep:
There is an old saying, if you do not have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. I see you like to give thumbs down and negative comment to statements of fact about scripture that contradict your viewpoint, and just make little smart alec comments.

If you read, you might learn something.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#57
That information came direct from the Christian Research Institute that has been in the front lines combating heresies and cults for many years and have the best of reputations.
And strangely enough, in spite of that, Hanegraaff went into Eastern Orthodoxy, which is full of errors and does not even have the basic Gospel presented correctly.

It is closer to Roman Catholicism than Bible Christianity.
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
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#58
There is an old saying, if you do not have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. I see you like to give thumbs down and negative comment to statements of fact about scripture that contradict your viewpoint, and just make little smart alec comments.

If you read, you might learn something.
I have nothing nice to say to those who dishonor Jesus Christ.
Heretics, Cultists and Apostates.........BE GONE!
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
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#59
And strangely enough, in spite of that, Hanegraaff went into Eastern Orthodoxy, which is full of errors and does not even have the basic Gospel presented correctly.

It is closer to Roman Catholicism than Bible Christianity.
Yes about Hanegraff but, Hank was already off the rails before he went to EO. His research on cults was good and CRC continues to be a watchman on the wall today. For Hank there was not that much difference between the EO and his formerly held beliefs since they all stem from that pesky idea of free will. Evangelicals have left and gone to Roman Cath. And vise-versa. Because when it comes down to it the message is not that much different. One allows freedom within a personal priesthood and the other demands allegiance to their "priests". Roman Catholocism is a mess of paganism and Judaism, using Christian terminology to disguise their cultic practices. Yet every abnormal religion uses "free will" as the basis for their "theology" because without "free will" their house of cards collapses.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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#60
Five fold ministry just makes me think of table napkins for some reason.