For All you Calvinists Out There...

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Crossfire

Guest
#21
Thanks for asking this question SantoSubito!!Thank you Crossfire for your post #6! Wow, I'm more arminian than I thought I was! God Bless! Mark!


*lol* No problem. Most people usually are.

When I first got saved and began reading the Bible for myself, I was an Arminian from the outset without ever being schooled in that train of thought. As I began to grow in the Lord, digging deep into scriptures, I became even more Arminian without ever having heard anything about Arminianism or Calvinism. It wasn't until I ran into a Calvinist for the very first time that I ever heard the word Arminian. And to be completely honest, my first impression of Calvinism was that it was some sort of cult. *lol*

However, after much study and research, I can understand why and how Calvin reached certain conclusions, especially with Luther doing his thing right around the same time. Both make some good points as well as some bad points. What's important though is that we understand why we believe what we believe and ask the Lord to help us discern His truth from religious tradition regardless of how we might believe.
 

lil_christian

Senior Member
Mar 14, 2010
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#22
Welp, that sums it up for me... I'm not Arminian! :p

EDIT: I'm not Calvinist either. lol
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
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#23
Soooooo whats goin on in here?

hey yall :D
 
Jan 18, 2011
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#24
*lol*

Good luck man. Calvin does make a few good points however, there are other points which I'm very confident from my own personal experiences in ministry that Calvin has missed the mark.
Doctrine comes from the Bible, not our personal experiences. Unless those experiences happened to involve Bible study, of course.

9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9)

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; (Proverbs 3:5)
 
Jan 18, 2011
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#27
Is there anyone but Christ, who is not in error?
If you mean completely without error, then probably not, but Calvinism and Arminianism are in serious error on many counts.

Although a believer's doctrine may not be perfect, he will nonetheless "abide in" correct doctrine (2 John 9). (See also 1 John 3.)

9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 9)
 
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Bloodwashed

Guest
#28
I was hopeing to point out, that Christ is the correct doctrine. Me crucified with Christ! I maybe wrong about all kinds of stuff. I might be having a bad hair day. Thats just me. Christ in me, the hope of glory! Is that what you are saying?
 
Jan 18, 2011
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#29
I was hopeing to point out, that Christ is the correct doctrine. Me crucified with Christ! I maybe wrong about all kinds of stuff. I might be having a bad hair day. Thats just me. Christ in me, the hope of glory! Is that what you are saying?
Christ is the correct doctrine in the sense that he is the word of God (John 1:1) and all Scripture is God-breathed (2 Timothy 3:16). Jesus taught that we should live by every word of God (Matthew 4:4). Through Christ, we have the righteousness of God (Philippians 3:8-9), which means abiding in correct doctrine (2 John 9).
 
Jan 18, 2011
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#31
Yeah...both WAY too weird for me! (sorry to those who agree with Calvinism...it's just what I've gotten out of the Bible.)
Although it's good that you don't believe either of these, remember that our understanding of "weirdness" is not a valid means of judging correct doctrine; the Bible is.

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; (Proverbs 3:5)

Also, it's good to keep in mind that neither Calvinism nor Arminianism is completely wrong. There are correct and incorrect ideas in each of them. (Which is why, on the whole, neither is fully correct).
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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#32
I do not know much of the doctrinal fine points of Calvinism (or Reformed Christianity if you prefer). Mainly what each of the 5 points of TULIP Calvinism is and isn't, and what Hyper-Calvinism is. Also this isn't meant to bait people into debate; I honestly just want to know.
When we're talking about calvinism, we would in objective terms be talking about classical, historical calvinism or creedal calvinism. We would not be talking about ideas, personalities and movements which may well have had some influence from Calvin or classical calvinism, and could even be called "calvinistic" by others, but which cannot rightly be said to be calvinist. One such example would be hyper-calvinism, an antinomian deviation from calvinism, which has been discussed at some length in the thread "The error of eternal justification" at this forum. But here, we'd start at the beginnings.

If you want to learn the basics about Calvin and calvinism then I don't recommend that you start off with reading works by english puritans, revivalists as Whitefield and Edwards or baptist preachers like Spurgeon. While this would be good and edificial reading for other purposes, it will not lay a sufficient foundation for understanding the task as these figures all represent later developments of calvinism. There are a lot of unbiased and well written academical works on both Calvin and calvinism available, search engines are your friend to get what you look for.

Of course, you can't do the math here without reading something from Calvin himself. To read even fair amounts of what he wrote is a huge lot of reading tho, which I assume you hardly would set apart the time for, I would then suggest begin reading excerpts from the Institutes and highlighted parts of his Bible commentaries. Much of his Bible commentaries is actually great reading, Calvin as Bible expositor is direly underrated. Probably much so due to his wrongs in Geneva. Anyway, that would give you a good glimpse into his thought. If you come from roman-catholic background it would not be so hard for you to understand some of his thinking if you have read up a little on Augustine and Thomas Aquinas.

This said I will stress that it nevertheless is not possible to fairly understand Calvin's thought without well understanding the concept of covenants in his systematic theology, on which precepts the Bible is to be studied and its doctrines be applied thru same. If one fails to do so, even if he's calvinist, he will get a calvinism that takes directions that Calvin did not intend. After Calvin's death his successor Beza codified Calvin's teachings into a system whose articulations became a matter of dispute. This may be seen in the lapsarian debate with mainly infra vs supra parties (I personally reject all lapsarian views as speculative, and I doubt Calvin himself was interested in defining any such position). Less than two decades after Calvin's death at only 54 the so called First Reformation was over and further developments arose.
 

lil_christian

Senior Member
Mar 14, 2010
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#33
Although it's good that you don't believe either of these, remember that our understanding of "weirdness" is not a valid means of judging correct doctrine; the Bible is.

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; (Proverbs 3:5)

Also, it's good to keep in mind that neither Calvinism nor Arminianism is completely wrong. There are correct and incorrect ideas in each of them. (Which is why, on the whole, neither is fully correct).
Very true :) sometimes I'll do that (but then again it's rare when someone never does), so yeah...it's good to bring one back to the basics.

I also agree that they both have correct and incorrect ideas.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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#34
Chapter 1 Institutes of the Christian Religion

Chapter One​
1. OUR wisdom, in so far as it ought to be
deemed true and solid Wisdom, consists
almost entirely of two parts: the knowledge
of God and of ourselves. But as these are
connected together by many ties, it is not
easy to determine which of the two precedes
and gives birth to the other. For, in the first
place, no man can survey himself without
forthwith turning his thoughts towards the
God in whom he lives and moves; because it
is perfectly obvious, that the endowments
which we possess cannot possibly be from
ourselves; nay, that our very being is
nothing else than subsistence in God alone.
In the second place, those blessings which
unceasingly distil to us from heaven, are like
streams conducting us to the fountain. Here,
again, the infinitude of good which resides
in God becomes more apparent from our
poverty. In particular, the miserable ruin into
which the revolt of the first man has plunged
us, compels us to turn our eyes upwards; not
only that while hungry and famishing we
may thence ask what we want, but being
aroused by fear may learn humility. For as
there exists in man something like a world
of misery, and ever since we were stripped
of the divine attire our naked shame
discloses an immense series of disgraceful
properties every man, being stung by the
consciousness of his own unhappiness, in
this way necessarily obtains at least some
knowledge of God. Thus, our feeling of
ignorance, vanity, want, weakness, in short,
depravity and corruption, reminds us (see
Calvin on John 4:10), that in the Lord, and
none but He, dwell the true light of wisdom,
solid virtue, exuberant goodness. We are
accordingly urged by our own evil things to
consider the good things of God; and,
indeed, we cannot aspire to Him in earnest
until we have begun to be displeased with
ourselves. For what man is not disposed to
rest in himself? Who, in fact, does not thus
rest, so long as he is unknown to himself;
that is, so long as he is contented with his
own endowments, and unconscious or
unmindful of his misery? Every person,
therefore, on coming to the knowledge of
himself, is not only urged to seek God, but is​
also led as by the hand to find him.
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#35
I find it interesting, but not at all unexpected; that when a thread addressed to Calvinists asking for a definition of Calvinism, every vocal non-Calvinist shows up to put in their two-cents about what Calvnism is.


 
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SantoSubito

Guest
#36
When we're talking about calvinism, we would in objective terms be talking about classical, historical calvinism or creedal calvinism. We would not be talking about ideas, personalities and movements which may well have had some influence from Calvin or classical calvinism, and could even be called "calvinistic" by others, but which cannot rightly be said to be calvinist. One such example would be hyper-calvinism, an antinomian deviation from calvinism, which has been discussed at some length in the thread "The error of eternal justification" at this forum. But here, we'd start at the beginnings.
Well what I envisioned when I asked the question was modern Calvinism along the lines of the Reformed Churches in America and conservative Presbyterians..
If you want to learn the basics about Calvin and calvinism then I don't recommend that you start off with reading works by english puritans, revivalists as Whitefield and Edwards or baptist preachers like Spurgeon. While this would be good and edificial reading for other purposes, it will not lay a sufficient foundation for understanding the task as these figures all represent later developments of calvinism. There are a lot of unbiased and well written academical works on both Calvin and calvinism available, search engines are your friend to get what you look for.
I may look for some soon, but I managed to get a hold of a copy of the Institutes from the university library.

Of course, you can't do the math here without reading something from Calvin himself. To read even fair amounts of what he wrote is a huge lot of reading tho, which I assume you hardly would set apart the time for, I would then suggest begin reading excerpts from the Institutes and highlighted parts of his Bible commentaries. Much of his Bible commentaries is actually great reading, Calvin as Bible expositor is direly underrated. Probably much so due to his wrongs in Geneva. Anyway, that would give you a good glimpse into his thought. If you come from roman-catholic background it would not be so hard for you to understand some of his thinking if you have read up a little on Augustine and Thomas Aquinas.
Never did think to read some of his commentaries. But I am fairly familiar with Aquinas since he was the main thinker studied in my religious philosophy class in high school.

For what it's worth, both Calvinism and Arminianism are in error.
I'd have to agree because I know that the Catholic Church is neither.
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#37
For what it's worth, both Calvinism and Arminianism are in error.


What 's weird is that most protestant believers tend to fall someplace in between, leaning toward one side or the other. While I do believe in Preserverance of the Saints & Irresistable Grace, my view is somewhat different than the traditional viewpoint most modern denoms either embrace or reject.

I do think it's hilarious though when a modern protestant (namely a Baptist) attempts to call both Calvinists and Arminians into error when, if you research their theology, certain parts ripped directly out of the Calvinist playbook while others were taken straight from the Arminian camp. They offer absolutely nothing unique or original.
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#38
Well what I envisioned when I asked the question was modern Calvinism along the lines of the Reformed Churches in America and conservative Presbyterians..


I may look for some soon, but I managed to get a hold of a copy of the Institutes from the university library.



Never did think to read some of his commentaries. But I am fairly familiar with Aquinas since he was the main thinker studied in my religious philosophy class in high school.



I'd have to agree because I know that the Catholic Church is neither.


I've got Calvin's complete works on CD in .PDF format at my home in North Carolina (I'm currently in Alabama). I could attempt to have the files e-mail to you when I am back there in a couple of weeks although I'm not sure if it will work because I've never tried it before.

BTW - I've got the complete works of Jacob Arminius here in Alabama.... someplace. lol
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,622
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#39
Well what I envisioned when I asked the question was modern Calvinism along the lines of the Reformed Churches in America and conservative Presbyterians..
I see. Well, that's another track then. I find it a little hard myself to navigate among the ever split up calvinist groups of contemporary US. The biggest ones like PCUSA and RCA has sadly since long gotten into ecumenism and have liberal leanings. There are yet quite a few orthodox and conservative presbyterians around in the US. Examples of such would be OPC, PCA, RPCNA, ARPC etc. On the dutch reformed side such groups would include CRC, RCUS, NRC, HRC etc. Plus various small groups.

Hyper-calvinists would be folks like primitive baptists, particular or strict baptists and sovereign grace baptists etc, plus maybe the occasional SBC member who has strong predestinarian beliefs. Of course in addition there may well be an uncertain number of individuals among the many different calvinist groups who also holds to hyper beliefs.

I may look for some soon, but I managed to get a hold of a copy of the Institutes from the university library.
OK. If you're just into browsing other works of Calvin then basically all of them are available online.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,622
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#40
While I do believe in Preserverance of the Saints & Irresistable Grace, my view is somewhat different than the traditional viewpoint most modern denoms either embrace or reject.
This would mean prevenient grace? Arminians do not believe that salvific grace is irresistable, and they do not believe that perseverance is upheld up by God alone, but that He may allow a falling away of the Saints.