FOR WHAT I AM DOING........PART 1

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SeekinHIM

Guest
#1
PRECIOUS,

We are going to take a closer look at ONE OF THE MOST CONFUSING SCRIPTURES IN ALL OF
THE BIBLE.........(At least it was for me, until JESUS explained it to me......)


FOR WHAT I AM DOING, I DO NOT UNDERSTAND; FOR I AM NOT PRACTICING WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO DO, BUT I AM DOING THE VERY THING I HATE.......BUT IF I DO THE VERY THING THAT I DO NOT WANT TO DO, I AGREE WITH THE LAW, CONFESSING THAT THE LAW IS GOOD. SO NOW, NO LONGER AM I THE ONE DOING IT, BUT SIN WHICH DWELLS IN ME.....

FOR I KNOW THAT NOTHING GOOD DWELLS IN ME, THAT IS IN MY FLESH; FOR THE WILLING(choosing) IS PRESENT IN ME, BUT THE DOING OF THE GOOD IS NOT, FOR THE GOOD THAT I WANT, I DO NOT DO, BUT I PRACTICE THE VERY EVIL I DO NOT WANT. BUT IF I AM DOING THE VERY THING I DO NOT WANT, I AM NO LONGER THE ONE DOING IT, BUT SIN WHICH DWELLS IN ME......

I FIND THEN THE PRINCIPLE (old laws) THAT EVIL IS PRESENT IN ME, THE ONE WHO WANTS

TO DO GOOD, FOR I JOYFULLY CONCUR (AGREE) WITH THE LAW (OF LOVE) OF GOD IN THE INNER MAN (SPIRIT, NEW HEART) BUT I SEE A DIFFERENT LAW IN THE MEMBERS OF MY BODY, WAGING WAR AGAINST THE LAW OF MY MIND (SOUND MIND OF CHRIST) AND MAKING ME A PRISONER OF THE LAW OF SIN (NOUN- PERSONIFIED/MASCULINE PRONOUN) WHICH IS IN MY MEMBERS.... WRETCHED (MISERABLE) MAN THAT I AM! WHO WILL SET ME FREE FROM THE BODY OF THIS DEATH......

THANKS BE TO GOD THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD....(I am stopping it here for a reason....)

TOO BIG OF A BITE OF ANYTHING, THEN YOU CAN'T CHEW IT RIGHT, AND YOU DON'T GET THE
NOURISHMENT THAT WAS INTENDED........

Ok, so if you read this passage in ROMANS 7 You will begin to discover that the Apostle Paul was obviously having A VERY REAL STRUGGLE, and this is his Revelation FROM GOD as to why he kept sinning.....and yet couldn't stop...........At the end of this EXPOSE' (exposing Satan), he shouts the victory.....vs.25......But we won't go there yet.....First things first......

We too are struggling with this thing called SIN........All of us are, if you are not, YOU ARE NOT SAVED..........And the enemy is still in FULL control of your life. If you are saved, this is also your problem just as it is mine...........BUT THERE IS A GREAT HOPE FOR YOU AND ME IF WE JUST TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT HOW GOD SHOWED PAUL WHAT WAS GOING ON HERE, SO HE COULD HAVE THE VICTORY, AND YES, THIS IS FOR YOU AND ME ALSO............

Why would GOD save you, promise you PEACE THAT PASSES ALL UNDERSTANDING, JOY UNSPEAKABLE AND FULL OF HIS GLORY, If it were not possible...............????? Now if you are not experiencing this, FULLY, DAILY, in your life, you may as PAUL said above, have this same problem....

I AM PRAYING FOR YOU MY BROTHER, SISTER...........THAT YOU TOO, LIKE ME WILL SHOUT THE VICTORY SONG PAUL SUNG..............THANKS BE TO GOD THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD....

Now next part we will begin to break this down, so WE CAN EAT PROPERLY THE BREAD OF LIFE....

THE WORD OF OUR LOVING FATHER GOD THROUGH THE WORD HIMSELF, JESUS CHRIST......

SeekinHIM
 
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#2
Paul was not having a struggle at that time as you suppose. He was a mature and renewed and born again and Spirit filled apostle!!! HE was not spreading the Gospel one minute and getting drunk and cussing the next! (also refer to your past teachings on here about crucifixion of the old man - Paul was very much dead and sold out for Christ, and victorious!). He was writing of himself in the present tense, about how He used to be before He got saved. It was a common way for ancient authors of the bible to make their point and show themself more relevant to the reader. Look up any good bible commentary or theologian about it. Please don't portray our beloved apostle Paul as a struggling sinner. If he was then much of our new testament may as well have been written by a prostitute and not a mature, victorious, holy and Holy Spirit filled and empowered minister of God. There really should be no such great struggle with your old man if it has truly been crucified and died, dead and buried, as baptism symbolises.
 
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SeekinHIM

Guest
#3
Precious Brother,

I have to disagree with you completely, this is his Revelation that is now for us to learn from, his descriptions are quite clear.......

Read it over and over...............this is IN THE PRESENT TENSE...........PAUL HAD MANY STRUGGLES IN HIS LIFE, THEY ARE CLEARLY PORTRAYED THROUGHOUT HIS WRITINGS...........READ CAREFULLY MY FRIEND, ONLY CHRIST HAD NO FLESH, BECAUSE HE WAS BORN ALIVE, THE REST OF US WERE BORN DEAD............Dead to GOD, and alive to SIN (Romans 6) Read carefully, and PRAYERFULLY.........Search Pauls other books.........

Weaved in and throughout them, (YOU HAVE TO READ THE WHOLE BOOK) Not just parts...........weaved in and out is a very subtle, YET OBVIOUS

FLESH RELATED ISSUES.............REMEMBER HERE, READ ABOUT PAULS FLESH FIRST............PHILIPPIANS 3-

Precious, this is our LOVING FATHER GOD showing us why we still struggle.............THE BODY IS DEAD BECAUSE OF SIN..........Remember ?

SeekinHIM
 
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Dread_Zeppelin

Guest
#4
Paul was not having a struggle at that time as you suppose. He was a mature and renewed and born again and Spirit filled apostle!!! HE was not spreading the Gospel one minute and getting drunk and cussing the next! (also refer to your past teachings on here about crucifixion of the old man - Paul was very much dead and sold out for Christ, and victorious!). He was writing of himself in the present tense, about how He used to be before He got saved. It was a common way for ancient authors of the bible to make their point and show themself more relevant to the reader. Look up any good bible commentary or theologian about it. Please don't portray our beloved apostle Paul as a struggling sinner. If he was then much of our new testament may as well have been written by a prostitute and not a mature, victorious, holy and Holy Spirit filled and empowered minister of God. There really should be no such great struggle with your old man if it has truly been crucified and died, dead and buried, as baptism symbolises.

I really dont understand this reasoning. Are you saying that if you are a spirit filled apostle you no longer struggle with sin? Maybe not to the extremes you are saying, but even the apostle Peter cursed when he was asked if he knew Jesus.

The comforting thing about Paul is that he's no more holy than anyone else. He's just a man, and men stuggle with sin no matter how "seasoned" they are. Show me a holy, ministering, mature, God-fearing man who claims to never struggle with sin...and I'll show you a liar.

I think Paul is being honest. He sins because at the time he likes it then hates it then does it again like a vicious cycle. The last verse in the chapter says "25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

Yes to die to your old self and become a new creature in Christ can mean a sudden change in character (not killing Christians for example) but you cant say that you dont struggle with sin there on in. Just because Paul struggled with sin doesnt mean that his credibilty is ruined! He's not Jesus you know, just another sinner that God worked with. THATS why we have the NT, its perfect because of Christ not Paul.
 
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SeekinHIM

Guest
#5
Precious Zeppelin,

Peter was not saved yet, no one was at this point...............REMEMBER A VERY KEY THING THAT JESUS DID WITH PETER.............

PETER DENIED JESUS (GOD) 3 TIMES......................THEN LATER, AFTER HE REPENTED...........JESUS RESTORED HIM 3 TIMES........TO BREAK THE LEGALITY OF PETERS SINS........

DO YOU LOVE ME PETER............FEED MY SHEEP............DO YOU LOVE ME PETER........FEED MY LAMBS................

DO YOU LOVE ME PETER.................DO YOU REMEMBER THIS MY FRIEND......?

SeekinHIM
 
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Dread_Zeppelin

Guest
#6
Precious Zeppelin,

Peter was not saved yet, no one was at this point...............REMEMBER A VERY KEY THING THAT JESUS DID WITH PETER.............

PETER DENIED JESUS (GOD) 3 TIMES......................THEN LATER, AFTER HE REPENTED...........JESUS RESTORED HIM 3 TIMES........TO BREAK THE LEGALITY OF PETERS SINS........

DO YOU LOVE ME PETER............FEED MY SHEEP............DO YOU LOVE ME PETER........FEED MY LAMBS................

DO YOU LOVE ME PETER.................DO YOU REMEMBER THIS MY FRIEND......?

SeekinHIM
A moot point compared to the rest of the post, what I'm saying is...yes, Paul was used by Christ. No, that doesn't mean he's supernaturally more holy than us.
 
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SeekinHIM

Guest
#7
Precious Zeppelin,

The other issues that you mention are exactly true, IF ANYONE SAYS HE IS WITHOUT SIN, HE IS A LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM.............

So, all of us have this problem, BUT HERE'S THE GOOD NEWS NOW, BECAUSE JESUS LIVES IN US, HE CAN OVERCOME THEM CERTAINLY A LOT MORE THAN BEFORE SALVATION............AND QUITE HONESTLY, THIS IS THE ACTUAL GOAL ON THIS PLANET...............

PRECIOUS, GOD KNOWS WE ARE GOING TO SIN, THIS IS CLEAR IN 1st JOHN.................BUT HE HAS MADE PROVISION FOR THIS...........

CONFESS YOUR SINS, AND HE (GOD) IS FAITHFUL AND JUST, TO FORGIVE YOU OF YOUR SINS, AND CLEANSE YOU (BLOOD OF CHRIST) OF ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS............ Now, this is in NO WAY A LICENSE TO SIN...................NOT AT ALL, EVEN ASK YOURSELF, IF YOU LIKE SINNING, YOUR ANSWER IS NO RIGHT? I HOPE SO ANYWAY...................THIS IS WHAT PAUL MEANT.............

PRECIOUS, I SIN, AND I HATE IT BECAUSE IT DISPLEASES GOD, MY FATHER, AND HIS SON JESUS CHRIST, AND GRIEVES HIS HOLY SPIRIT, BUT .......

AHA.............!!!! I CAN GET IT RIGHT NOW...............AND THEN, AS I CONTINUE TO SURRENDER ALL AREAS OF MY LIFE TO HIM, HE WILL REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF SINNING IN MY LIFE OR YOURS, OR ANYONE THAT IS SERIOUS ABOUT THIS WALK ON EARTH WITH HIM......

HE WILL DO THIS, IF WE ONLY CRY OUT TO HIM................AS PAUL DID..............THEN HE SHOUTED THE VICTORY........HE WAS MISERABLE....
THIS IS WHAT WRETCHED MEANS IN THESE VERSES..............

I MADE THE WORD OVERCOME BOLD UP TOP BECAUSE REMEMBER WHAT JESUS SAID IN THE GOSPELS..................IN THE WORLD YOU WILL HAVE TROUBLES...............BUT BE OF GOOD CHEER, I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD................This is a Prophetic Word to us from GOD that HE (JESUS) WOULD DO THE SAME IN AND THROUGH US..............

IS THAT LOVE OR WHAT............???

SeekinHIM
 
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Dread_Zeppelin

Guest
#8
Precious Zeppelin,

The other issues that you mention are exactly true, IF ANYONE SAYS HE IS WITHOUT SIN, HE IS A LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM.............

So, all of us have this problem, BUT HERE'S THE GOOD NEWS NOW, BECAUSE JESUS LIVES IN US, HE CAN OVERCOME THEM CERTAINLY A LOT MORE THAN BEFORE SALVATION............AND QUITE HONESTLY, THIS IS THE ACTUAL GOAL ON THIS PLANET...............

PRECIOUS, GOD KNOWS WE ARE GOING TO SIN, THIS IS CLEAR IN 1st JOHN.................BUT HE HAS MADE PROVISION FOR THIS...........

CONFESS YOUR SINS, AND HE (GOD) IS FAITHFUL AND JUST, TO FORGIVE YOU OF YOUR SINS, AND CLEANSE YOU (BLOOD OF CHRIST) OF ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS............ Now, this is in NO WAY A LICENSE TO SIN...................NOT AT ALL, EVEN ASK YOURSELF, IF YOU LIKE SINNING, YOUR ANSWER IS NO RIGHT? I HOPE SO ANYWAY...................THIS IS WHAT PAUL MEANT.............

PRECIOUS, I SIN, AND I HATE IT BECAUSE IT DISPLEASES GOD, MY FATHER, AND HIS SON JESUS CHRIST, AND GRIEVES HIS HOLY SPIRIT, BUT .......

AHA.............!!!! I CAN GET IT RIGHT NOW...............AND THEN, AS I CONTINUE TO SURRENDER ALL AREAS OF MY LIFE TO HIM, HE WILL REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF SINNING IN MY LIFE OR YOURS, OR ANYONE THAT IS SERIOUS ABOUT THIS WALK ON EARTH WITH HIM......

HE WILL DO THIS, IF WE ONLY CRY OUT TO HIM................AS PAUL DID..............THEN HE SHOUTED THE VICTORY........HE WAS MISERABLE....
THIS IS WHAT WRETCHED MEANS IN THESE VERSES..............

I MADE THE WORD OVERCOME BOLD UP TOP BECAUSE REMEMBER WHAT JESUS SAID IN THE GOSPELS..................IN THE WORLD YOU WILL HAVE TROUBLES...............BUT BE OF GOOD CHEER, I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD................This is a Prophetic Word to us from GOD that HE (JESUS) WOULD DO THE SAME IN AND THROUGH US..............

IS THAT LOVE OR WHAT............???

SeekinHIM

I completely agree! :)
 
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SeekinHIM

Guest
#9
Dear Zeppelin,

You are indeed BLESSED MY FRIEND, NOT BECAUSE YOU AGREE WITH ME, WHO AM I ANYWAY.................JUST A STUDENT OF MY LORD......

This is indeed a TRUE SIGN OF MATURITY.............Blessings on you My Sister....

SeekinHIM
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#10
Seeking on this issue you are wrong, here is what some respectable bible scholars/theologians says about Paul's words:


PNT commentary says:

Sold under sin. Hence, in a state of slavery. Though Paul uses the present tense, in order to make the description more vivid, he describes his condition before he became a Christian.



Paul used a style of writing which you have completely missed. He wasn't talking about himself in the present tense. But in the past tense.

It makes no sense for Paul to be saying he's a struggling with sin one minute, and then in another letter write things such as " I am crucified with Christ, I no longer live..."... "I am dead to the world".

Folks, he was a mature, called, and holy apostle of God, sold out for Christ. He wasn't struggling with his flesh. By that time he had already conquered it. Would you be trusting the scriptures to be written by an amateur or a sinner? Was Paul holier than the average christian? YOU BET. But congratulations you've been able to portray the apostle Paul as a common sinner saved by grace - drunk and cussing one minute , preaching the word and healing the sick and making converts the next I suppose.
 
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#11
We have other places where Paul uses the present tense:

1Ti 1:15 "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners." This saying is true, and it can be trusted. I was the worst sinner of all!

Here he says he is the worst sinner of all, the "chief of sinners". Does this mean he was out murdering and assaulting and such things in between preaching the gospel at that time? No way. Again he uses the present tense when it should be in the past. In other places (two verses prior) he describes his former state as a blasphemer.


Some try to pin a label of "sinner" on the apostle Paul. But this guy was a saint, and far above being a sinner.

A good website to read:

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/christiansinner.htm
 
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lighthousejohn

Guest
#12
Seeking on this issue you are wrong, here is what some respectable bible scholars/theologians says about Paul's words:

I tend to discount "note respectable Theologians" because they have a lot of head knowledge and little practical knowledge. I have watched them argue vehemenly with each other on opposite sides of a biblical issue. To put it succinctly; "They are so heavenly minded that they are of no earthly good!"

We all have a sin nature that we must constantly deal with. Yes, our sins have been forgiven but our sin nature is still alive in each of us.

1 John 1:8 "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

John was speaking to believers as was Paul. Paul was trying to show the struggle that takes place in us when temptaion comes upon us. I wish that I were so perfect so I would not have this struggle but then my pride would rise up and ...


Paul was not perfect and knew it. He faced his issues daily and received God's grace daily, as must we.
 
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#13
I tend to discount "note respectable Theologians" because they have a lot of head knowledge and little practical knowledge. I have watched them argue vehemenly with each other on opposite sides of a biblical issue. To put it succinctly; "They are so heavenly minded that they are of no earthly good!"
There are also non-theologians who realise that Paul is speaking of himself in the past tense. I believe one of the websites I posted above is one of them. But it's good to study and know about the different writing styles the authors of the bible used. If we do accept that Paul was speaking of himself in the present tense, we will have contradictions when we read what he says about being dead to the world , crucified with Christ, died, dead and buried.

Part of the problem also is that people tend to read isolated passages at a time depending upon what they want to talk about, rather than considering all of the chapters and books as a whole. These people one day will be saying that Paul was a sinner struggling with his flesh, and quote those passages...and the next day talk about being crucified with Christ, and "I no longer live", and "I am dead to the world", and quote those passages, also written by the apostle Paul. Not realising that both being written by the apostle Paul, are in complete contradiction to one another. Throw in what Paul wrote in Romans about baptism, being died, dead and buried with Christ -

How can Paul write about conquering the flesh one minute:


Rom 6:12 Sin must no longer rule in your mortal bodies, so that you obey the desires of your natural self.


Only to say that he himself is struggling with it the next? It makes no sense if we think Paul is speaking in the present tense regarding his fleshly struggles and sinfulness.

Paul was not perfect: agreed. He was as fallable as anyone else and knew it. But to say he was a sinner, and struggling with certain sins in his life, that's another thing altogether. If he was, scripture no where mentions what these sins are. No where do we read, "and Paul lost his temper and cussed yet again, only to be corrected and mentored and held accountable by the apostle John".

I believe Paul teaches that the old man, the flesh, is crucified, dead and buried with Christ (as baptism symbolises). There is the washing of the new birth, the cleansing of Christ's blood... A christian is no longer a sinner, but a saint. Paul, probably more than anyone else, knew this by personal experience for himself. If anyone cannot accept this, then let us hope that Paul was in one of his "holy moments" when he wrote what we call scripture today, and not writing from his flesh.
 
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lighthousejohn

Guest
#14
There are also non-theologians who realise that Paul is speaking of himself in the past tense. I believe one of the websites I posted above is one of them. But it's good to study and know about the different writing styles the authors of the bible used. If we do accept that Paul was speaking of himself in the present tense, we will have contradictions when we read what he says about being dead to the world , crucified with Christ, died, dead and buried.

Part of the problem also is that people tend to read isolated passages at a time depending upon what they want to talk about, rather than considering all of the chapters and books as a whole. These people one day will be saying that Paul was a sinner struggling with his flesh, and quote those passages...and the next day talk about being crucified with Christ, and "I no longer live", and "I am dead to the world", and quote those passages, also written by the apostle Paul. Not realising that both being written by the apostle Paul, are in complete contradiction to one another. Throw in what Paul wrote in Romans about baptism, being died, dead and buried with Christ -

How can Paul write about conquering the flesh one minute:


Rom 6:12 Sin must no longer rule in your mortal bodies, so that you obey the desires of your natural self.


Only to say that he himself is struggling with it the next? It makes no sense if we think Paul is speaking in the present tense regarding his fleshly struggles and sinfulness.

Paul was not perfect: agreed. He was as fallable as anyone else and knew it. But to say he was a sinner, and struggling with certain sins in his life, that's another thing altogether. If he was, scripture no where mentions what these sins are. No where do we read, "and Paul lost his temper and cussed yet again, only to be corrected and mentored and held accountable by the apostle John".

I believe Paul teaches that the old man, the flesh, is crucified, dead and buried with Christ (as baptism symbolises). There is the washing of the new birth, the cleansing of Christ's blood... A christian is no longer a sinner, but a saint. Paul, probably more than anyone else, knew this by personal experience for himself. If anyone cannot accept this, then let us hope that Paul was in one of his "holy moments" when he wrote what we call scripture today, and not writing from his flesh.
Nowhere in my post did I suggest that Paul struggled with a particular sin. What I did say was "Paul was trying to show the struggle that takes place in us when temptaion comes upon us." Paul was well aware of his imperfections and it was a common thread throughout his letters that we must always be aware of the temptations around us and that we must "keep our eyes on the prize" and "run the race to win" lest we b distracted by said temptations.

All of scripture is applicable to any biblical discussion.
 
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Dread_Zeppelin

Guest
#15
Theres a big difference to being dead to sin altogether, and being a person who struggles with sin. You can't go a day without sinning, its just not our nature. And no, Paul was no exception. He's not holier than me. He's an insightful man used by God, but that doesn't mean he's worth more than I am.
 
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#16
He was more holier than most people. Holiness means dedication to God in service. He was 100% sold out.

Nowhere in my post did I suggest that Paul struggled with a particular sin.
I was addressing the ideas expressed in the OP, that Paul was somehow engaged in a struggle of his flesh. After consulting various sources apparently there's a writing style where one writes past events in the present tense in order to come across as more vivid to the reader. Perhaps SeekinHim also believes that when Paul says "I am chief of sinners", he literally was the worst sinner in the world at that moment, think of it, an apostle saying he was the worst sinner of all at that moment. Before the "once saved always saved" get their jollies from this verse to prove how a person can still be in sin and saved , unfortunately people still use Paul as one of the examples of a sinful and fallen, yet saved christian. Which is not who he was at all. Do you even know the meaning of the word apostle? Suppose much of the new testament was written whilst Paul was ina struggle of his flesh, maybe he just had gotten drunk before writing 1 Corinthians, and then repented before writing Romans. Think about the implications when we claim that Paul was a man who was half fleshly and half victorious. It means the scriptures were not written by a holy and mature man of God but by a carnal babe in Christ. And no, when Paul said "I am carnal", he was not saying he was carnal at that moment, but describing his former life.
 
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#17
I hope you see the predicament for your beliefs. On the one hand you say that Paul is carnal, on the other you believe he was one of the most inspired and spiritual men who ever lived. How the two fit together beats me. What's more you're using scripture written by a said "carnal man" to prove your points about spirituality.


And yes I and other people go from day to day without sinning. Are you saying that we should sin just to make this scripture come true?:

1 John 1:8 "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

Don't you realise that 1 John 1:8 is talking about those who have sinned, and refuse to repent? It is not saying that everyone has sin and are deceived if they don't agree that they have sin (even if in reality they do not).

Perhaps you should consult some theologians or such, so your knowledge isn't lacking and you can know what you're talking about. Without theologians that you claim have no practical experience, you wouldn't even have a bible in the english language.

The reason why you might go day to day sinning is because you are living from your old and carnal nature and not the Spirit. If you live and walk according to the Spirit you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh.
 
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Dread_Zeppelin

Guest
#18
He was more holier than most people. Holiness means dedication to God in service. He was 100% sold out.

I was addressing the ideas expressed in the OP, that Paul was somehow engaged in a struggle of his flesh. After consulting various sources apparently there's a writing style where one writes past events in the present tense in order to come across as more vivid to the reader. Perhaps SeekinHim also believes that when Paul says "I am chief of sinners", he literally was the worst sinner in the world at that moment, think of it, an apostle saying he was the worst sinner of all at that moment. Before the "once saved always saved" get their jollies from this verse to prove how a person can still be in sin and saved , unfortunately people still use Paul as one of the examples of a sinful and fallen, yet saved christian. Which is not who he was at all. Do you even know the meaning of the word apostle? Suppose much of the new testament was written whilst Paul was ina struggle of his flesh, maybe he just had gotten drunk before writing 1 Corinthians, and then repented before writing Romans. Think about the implications when we claim that Paul was a man who was half fleshly and half victorious. It means the scriptures were not written by a holy and mature man of God but by a carnal babe in Christ. And no, when Paul said "I am carnal", he was not saying he was carnal at that moment, but describing his former life.
You're making Paul out to be super-human (maybe even divine). You're also denying the possiblilty that our God wrote the Bible and that it's by Paul's own strength that it was written. You're always saying drunk and cussing, but what if Paul just struggled with pride or he lied every once in a while. By struggling with sin you're making an argument that he was an amature Christian, but that's never the case with sin nature.

You're saying, that in order to be the best christian and an apostle of Christ, that we must ALWAYS never struggle with sin no matter how small? That we're to be completely divid of all sin, that we are saved and rated by God by what we do? Please, help me understand.

If you truely believe this then to be you must be exhausting. We all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Note the word all.

Struggling with sin doesn't mean amature, it means human. You're mixing up the two. He was a man used by God- to write the Bible which was God through him-not in his own strength or lack of sin nature.
 
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lighthousejohn

Guest
#19
He was more holier than most people. Holiness means dedication to God in service. He was 100% sold out.

I was addressing the ideas expressed in the OP, that Paul was somehow engaged in a struggle of his flesh. After consulting various sources apparently there's a writing style where one writes past events in the present tense in order to come across as more vivid to the reader. Perhaps SeekinHim also believes that when Paul says "I am chief of sinners", he literally was the worst sinner in the world at that moment, think of it, an apostle saying he was the worst sinner of all at that moment. Before the "once saved always saved" get their jollies from this verse to prove how a person can still be in sin and saved , unfortunately people still use Paul as one of the examples of a sinful and fallen, yet saved christian. Which is not who he was at all. Do you even know the meaning of the word apostle? Suppose much of the new testament was written whilst Paul was ina struggle of his flesh, maybe he just had gotten drunk before writing 1 Corinthians, and then repented before writing Romans. Think about the implications when we claim that Paul was a man who was half fleshly and half victorious. It means the scriptures were not written by a holy and mature man of God but by a carnal babe in Christ. And no, when Paul said "I am carnal", he was not saying he was carnal at that moment, but describing his former life.
Methinks thou dost think too much. The concept is simple. Paul struggled with sinful temptaion as much as any man. To say that he did not was to put him on the same plane as Jesus.

An apostle is one who was sent out as a messenger with specific orders. In Paul's case, as a messenger to the gentiles. The word comes from the Greek apostolos (ἀπόστολος) NOTE: Judas was also considered an apostle!

No where in the scripture does it say that our sin nature is removed from us, only that our sins are forgiven.

Paul considered himself to be chief amonst sinners because of his early persecution of the church.

 
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#20
You're making Paul out to be super-human (maybe even divine).
Maybe even supernatural. As the terms "adopted heirs and sons of God, priests and kings through Jesus Christ" imply.



You're also denying the possiblilty that our God wrote the Bible and that it's by Paul's own strength that it was written.
God inspired Paul to write it. Not forced him to. God never literally held the pen though. Also, much of Paul's writings are not him writing in some trance like state, whatever he hears from heaven, most of the things he writes are practical commands and doctrine and instruction to his churches. They are letters. His intention was not to write heavenly scripture, but to communicate to his churches using the inspiration of the Holy Spirit which He had.



You're always saying drunk and cussing, but what if Paul just struggled with pride or he lied every once in a while.
Any verse that shows this struggle with pride and his lying? He was given a thorn to buffet him to keep him from pride after revelation. Can't think of any others. Lying? It raises serious questions about the truthfulness of the scriptures if Paul was an occasional liar.


You're saying, that in order to be the best christian and an apostle of Christ, that we must ALWAYS never struggle with sin no matter how small? That we're to be completely divid of all sin, that we are saved and rated by God by what we do? Please, help me understand.
I won't find the reference but I'm sure you've heard of a verse that says bishops must be blameless. Church leadership, and called apostles had a high calling to maturity and holiness. To live otherwise would ruin their witness and testimony. It was not because he was sinless that he was called to be an apostle, but that because he was called to be an apostle and empowered by the Spirit in such a mighty way. He may have slipped up from time to time , but he most certainly was not a half and half christian who struggled with flesh one minute and was out healing the sick in power the next. He would be a hypocrite to write the things he did about being dead to the world, and buried with Christ and the old man being dead, and being holy, and speaking against the carnality in the churches like Corinth, if he himself taught that to others but didn't live and experience it himself.


If you truely believe this then to be you must be exhausting. We all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Note the word all.
You use the word exhausting which shows you are thinking and trying in your own strength. I'm not saying that at all. If anything it's surrender. It's crucifixion of the flesh. It's submission. By Christ's cleansing blood and our baptism , we are clean, set free, redeemed, righteous, holy, perfect. Read Romans 6. God's power not our own. Man shall live by every word of God. Not by power nor might but by My Spirit says the Lord. I will put a new heart and a new spirit within them. Every man shall know Me. To know God means to love Him. To love God means to obey His commands. To obey His commands means to not sin. If by the Spirit we put to death the deeds of the body we shall live. If we live according to the flesh we will die. That's all in the scriptures from both old and new testament and I'm just paraphrasing. We may still fall or slip from time to time, but I will not say that "I sinned today", just to satisfy a doctrine that "we are still sinners", if I truly know not or have not sinned. Saying we've sinned when we have not is basically condemnation.



Struggling with sin doesn't mean amature, it means human. You're mixing up the two. He was a man used by God- to write the Bible which was God through him-not in his own strength or lack of sin nature.
Part of my issue is how people see him as just any regular man who God could have plucked off the street and then moved his hand to write like a puppet on the string. He was not only used by God, like a rag doll, but he was a chief apostle. These guys didn't preach during the week and get drunk on friday nights.

But still the problem remains, how do you know if when Paul wrote his letters, he was not in a sinful or carnal attitude at the time?