For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever

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Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,796
517
113
#1
Do Christians believe the Heavenly Father they pray to has the kingdom, the power and the glory as The Father is presented to us in the OT, or do they believe that the Father gave this away to Christ, so it is only Christ who now has all the kingdom, the power and the glory?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,148
3,080
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#2
I will always believe God is One God. In the ot the Father declares He is the Husband, the Redeemer and the King.

Isaiah says outright the Child born to the Virgen would be called everlasting Father, God Almighty, Ruler ofPeace, Coforter, andmore.

Our Maker, Who loves us as only Perfection is able to do, in order to demonstrate to us all that H is all of this came into theCreation for us in theFlesh. He experienced all temptations and reisisted all. He knowsour weaknesses, sorrows and pain first-hand in order that no flesh could ever say He is not righteous in His judgments. He returned to the Father and is His Right Arm, that is His power forever.

Do not ask tha tt I, mere flesh, explain this woderment, but do not ask me not to believe what faith has given me to believe…….I believe Elohim and His Word, and His Word for the sake of those who do not understand, is God.
All mystery will berevealed in our Maker's timeand not before. Until then allow your faith togrow to the pint where you are gifted to believe Him for what He says, and not doubt because we do not yet understand for that would be faithless.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
11,305
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#3
Jesus said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me" (Matthew 28:18). and "I have received authority from my Father" (Revelation 2:27).

Does He mean that the Father surrendered everything, like the aged and frail David did to Solomon? Or does it mean that the Father extended His authority to Jesus, like Pharaoh did to Joseph? I'm much more inclined to go with the latter.

The clause in Matthew 6, "for thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory" (KJV) is not found in the early manuscripts. While its message is consistent with Scripture as a whole, its authenticity is questionable.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,796
517
113
#4
A
Jesus said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me" (Matthew 28:18). and "I have received authority from my Father" (Revelation 2:27).

Does He mean that the Father surrendered everything, like the aged and frail David did to Solomon? Or does it mean that the Father extended His authority to Jesus, like Pharaoh did to Joseph? I'm much more inclined to go with the latter.

The clause in Matthew 6, "for thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory" (KJV) is not found in the early manuscripts. While its message is consistent with Scripture as a whole, its authenticity is questionable.
If we look to scripture questioning God's giving away His power and authority to Jesus instead of including Him as His Son and equal we would need to question many things of God.

We are told God is one, not that Christ now has it all.

We are given the 23rd Psalm saying the Lord is my shepard, but if the Lord is not eternal but can change then that psalm would need to change. The Lord in David's time and the lord in Christ's time would be two different Lords.

We would need to question the word eternal as it applies to God.

Many scriptures would need to change. As an example in Acts 10:38 "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him". The word with in this quote would need to change to God was replaced by Him.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
11,305
5,709
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#5
A
If we look to scripture questioning God's giving away His power and authority to Jesus instead of including Him as His Son and equal we would need to question many things of God.

We are told God is one, not that Christ now has it all.

We are given the 23rd Psalm saying the Lord is my shepard, but if the Lord is not eternal but can change then that psalm would need to change. The Lord in David's time and the lord in Christ's time would be two different Lords.

We would need to question the word eternal as it applies to God.

Many scriptures would need to change. As an example in Acts 10:38 "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him". The word with in this quote would need to change to God was replaced by Him.
You're using a straw man argument, and I'm not going to entertain it further. You believe that others think the Father gave away His authority, and you're arguing against it. This is at least the third thread in which you've addressed this belief as though others hold to it.

If you can find someone who actually holds that belief, argue with them. Good luck.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,405
15,227
113
#6
Do Christians believe the Heavenly Father they pray to has the kingdom, the power and the glory as The Father is presented to us in the OT, or do they believe that the Father gave this away to Christ, so it is only Christ who now has all the kingdom, the power and the glory?
All things were created by him and FOR HIM!
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,619
3,264
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#7
Do Christians believe the Heavenly Father they pray to has the kingdom, the power and the glory as The Father is presented to us in the OT, or do they believe that the Father gave this away to Christ, so it is only Christ who now has all the kingdom, the power and the glory?
1. The Kingdom, the power, and the glory belong to God the Father.

2. The Father has handed over everything to the Son (after His resurrection), until the Kingdom of God is established throughout the universe, and Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. See Daniel 7 and Revelation 19.

3. Following that the Son will hand back to the Father what rightfully belongs to Him, so that God will be "all in all". See 1 Corinthians 15.


4. We should understand that we are dealing here with the Mystery of God and Christ, and the human mind cannot comprehend the depths of this.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,796
517
113
#8
You're using a straw man argument, and I'm not going to entertain it further. You believe that others think the Father gave away His authority, and you're arguing against it. This is at least the third thread in which you've addressed this belief as though others hold to it.

If you can find someone who actually holds that belief, argue with them. Good luck.
In other words you cannot think through these scriptures, you hold fast to your doctrines.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,796
517
113
#9
1. The Kingdom, the power, and the glory belong to God the Father.

2. The Father has handed over everything to the Son (after His resurrection), until the Kingdom of God is established throughout the universe, and Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. See Daniel 7 and Revelation 19.

3. Following that the Son will hand back to the Father what rightfully belongs to Him, so that God will be "all in all". See 1 Corinthians 15.

4. We should understand that we are dealing here with the Mystery of God and Christ, and the human mind cannot comprehend the depths of this.
To put these thoughts in another way, keeping to your "truths", then God is no more for God is replaced by Christ who is a new God.

This does not follow what scripture tells us. In fact gospel tells us that: John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
11,305
5,709
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#10
In other words you cannot think through these scriptures, you hold fast to your doctrines.
Wow.

Let me know when you want to have a mature, reasonable discussion.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,619
3,264
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#11
To put these thoughts in another way, keeping to your "truths", then God is no more for God is replaced by Christ who is a new God.
Where do you come up with these doozies? Try to get a proper understanding of the triune Godhead and what the Bible means when it says that "The Head of Christ is God" [the Father].
This does not follow what scripture tells us. In fact gospel tells us that: John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

This passage applies to Jesus (the eternal Word of God) as the Creator of the universe. You were focused on the Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory so keep your focus. I gave you the proper understanding of this with appropriate Scripture references.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
4,676
584
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#12
Jesus said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me" (Matthew 28:18). and "I have received authority from my Father" (Revelation 2:27).

Does He mean that the Father surrendered everything, like the aged and frail David did to Solomon? Or does it mean that the Father extended His authority to Jesus, like Pharaoh did to Joseph? I'm much more inclined to go with the latter.

The clause in Matthew 6, "for thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory" (KJV) is not found in the early manuscripts. While its message is consistent with Scripture as a whole, its authenticity is questionable.
All authority was given to the 'man' Christ Jesus who was God with us. They are One.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,796
517
113
#13
Wow.

Let me know when you want to have a mature, reasonable discussion.
Are you able to do this? You have "strawman" "that is wrong" and such canned answers to all, I don't seem to be able to get through to you in a reasonable, scripture passed way.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,796
517
113
#14
All authority was given to the 'man' Christ Jesus who was God with us. They are One.
It seems to me that this is what scripture clearly states. God is one, not Christ is now the God of power. I don't think Christ and the Father can be separated.

It was explained to me that the idea that God did not do this, but made Christ his replacement came from the world of mythology the first Christians were so familiar with. There the old Gods became cranky and useless so the sons replaced them.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
7,081
2,957
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#15
It seems to me that this is what scripture clearly states. God is one, not Christ is now the God of power. I don't think Christ and the Father can be separated.

It was explained to me that the idea that God did not do this, but made Christ his replacement came from the world of mythology the first Christians were so familiar with. There the old Gods became cranky and useless so the sons replaced them.
so, in other words, you reject the Trinity. o.k.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
4,676
584
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#16
Seeing as the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God, and as there can only be 1 God, then my Spiritual, Father God, and I hope yours too, is the Word made flesh.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,796
517
113
#17
so, in other words, you reject the Trinity. o.k.
I reject the idea that God gave away His power, so God is made less by Christ, I accept that God is one. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. I accept the scripture saying that God gave Christ authority, I accept scripture. I do not think that God is telling us that he gave AWAY his authority so God has less authority because Christ has authority.

We are to report truth here, none of us are Gods. It makes no difference to the reality of God what any of us believe. I started this post in the hopes that I could have posters think through and report on truth, and I stake my life on that God is one.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
11,305
5,709
113
#18
Are you able to do this? You have "strawman" "that is wrong" and such canned answers to all, I don't seem to be able to get through to you in a reasonable, scripture passed way.
I don’t completely misrepresent your words and slam you for believing what I mistakenly think you believe. You do that to me (and to others).

Saying you’re using a strawman argument is not immature. It’s calling you on a logical fallacy. Perhaps instead of feeling offended you should look up the term.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,619
3,264
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#19
I don't think Christ and the Father can be separated.
Which means that you have a DEFICIENT VIEW of the Godhead. Why not go through the Bible once again and see that God is ONE yet revealed to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

The Father is neither the Son nor the Spirit
The Son is neither the Father nor the Spirit
The Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son

People should not try to use their human reasoning to understand these fundamental divine truths. This is the Mystery of God and Christ.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
7,081
2,957
113
#20
I reject the idea that God gave away His power, so God is made less by Christ, I accept that God is one. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. I accept the scripture saying that God gave Christ authority, I accept scripture. I do not think that God is telling us that he gave AWAY his authority so God has less authority because Christ has authority.

We are to report truth here, none of us are Gods. It makes no difference to the reality of God what any of us believe. I started this post in the hopes that I could have posters think through and report on truth, and I stake my life on that God is one.
you can repeat the Shema all you want, but it does not destroy the truth of Trinity.

oneness is a sick lie used by judeaizers to try to trick Christians to keep the Law/Sabbath ( another sick lie ) to be saved.