forgive us as we forgive others?

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Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
2,934
624
113
#1
As part of the Lord's Prayer we have this in Matthew 6:12: "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."

What are your thoughts? What does this mean? What was Jesus trying to say?
 
Oct 12, 2019
8
13
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#2
I think as we get to know The Lord and the sacrifice He made for us even though we are undeserving we in turn learn how to forgive unconditionally those who offend us.
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
1,323
1,510
113
#4
As part of the Lord's Prayer we have this in Matthew 6:12: "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."

What are your thoughts? What does this mean? What was Jesus trying to say?
In part, it coincides with Jesus teaching us to be merciful just as God is merciful.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
2,934
624
113
#6
I think the Book of Mathew chapter 18 has a very good parable describing this.
The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant Matthew 18 ESV
21 Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times.
23 “Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants.[a] 24 When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents.[b] 25 And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 So the servant[c] fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ 27 And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. 28 But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii,[d] and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay what you owe.’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ 30 He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt. 31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place. 32 Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ 34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers,[e] until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”

Does this mean that if we do not forgive a brother that God will then "unforgive" our sins? That seems a bit like a harsh God! But I am wondering what is the correct way to interpret Matthew 6:12; and you may be right that this parable is a similar teaching?
 

TabinRivCA

Well-known member
Oct 23, 2018
3,203
2,678
113
#7
God's word does say that in Mt 6:14-15 'For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.'
Also, it for our own good. Carrying the burden of resentment or unforgiveness is unhealthy. And when we disobey something God has instructed us to do, it's a sin. If I can forgive my brother who cheated me out of $200,000+, anyone else can do it. Btw, after yrs of resentment, when I totally cast his offense to the Lord, my brother has contacted me after 13 yrs to make it right.
Follow the Lord's guidance and we can't lose. (y)
 

morefaithrequired

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2019
988
566
93
#8
We take Gods mercy to us as a given yet we can make such a fuss of forgiving others.
And I hasten to add there are victims of awful sin who are surely not expected to forgive theit perpetrators.
For the rest of us who just cop the odd insult or rudeness, we need to move on quickly. Life is too short.
 

morefaithrequired

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2019
988
566
93
#9
God's word does say that in Mt 6:14-15 'For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.'
Also, it for our own good. Carrying the burden of resentment or unforgiveness is unhealthy. And when we disobey something God has instructed us to do, it's a sin. If I can forgive my brother who cheated me out of $200,000+, anyone else can do it. Btw, after yrs of resentment, when I totally cast his offense to the Lord, my brother has contacted me after 13 yrs to make it right.
Follow the Lord's guidance and we can't lose. (y)
what an inspirational post!
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
2,287
443
83
#10
As part of the Lord's Prayer we have this in Matthew 6:12: "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."

What are your thoughts? What does this mean? What was Jesus trying to say?
Under The law of Moses, God won’t forgive you if you don’t forgive people.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,215
842
113
#11
Under The law of Moses, God won’t forgive you if you don’t forgive people.
thats what Jesus said yes but why was salvation so difficult back then and so easy now?
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
2,287
443
83
#12
thats what Jesus said yes but why was salvation so difficult back then and so easy now?
Paul explained it well in Romans 11

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

God deliberately made it easy for us former Gentiles to be saved, because the Jews kept rejecting God, in order to provoke the Jews to jealousy.

The Jews rejected God the Father in the OT by ignoring or stoning their prophets.
The Jews rejected God the Son in the 4 Gospels by putting him on the cross.
The Jews rejected God the Holy Spirit in Acts by stoning Stephen who was full of the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:55).

With the entire Trinity being rejected by the Jews, the last one to me is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, which is an unforgivable sin under the Law of Moses, God finally unveiled his hidden plan to save the Gentiles independent of the Jews, a plan he had kept hidden since the world began (Ephesians 3:9).

Once you realized this, Ephesians 2 and 3 take on totally new meaning, and you as a former Gentile, will really praise God the Father for his wonderful plan. And you will not be upset that Jesus was only speaking to the Jews in the 4 Gospels. :)
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
2,287
443
83
#13
Paul explained it well in Romans 11

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

God deliberately made it easy for us former Gentiles to be saved, because the Jews kept rejecting God, in order to provoke the Jews to jealousy.

The Jews rejected God the Father in the OT by ignoring or stoning their prophets.
The Jews rejected God the Son in the 4 Gospels by putting him on the cross.
The Jews rejected God the Holy Spirit in Acts by stoning Stephen who was full of the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:55).

With the entire Trinity being rejected by the Jews, the last one to me is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, which is an unforgivable sin under the Law of Moses, God finally unveiled his hidden plan to save the Gentiles independent of the Jews, a plan he had kept hidden since the world began (Ephesians 3:9).

Once you realized this, Ephesians 2 and 3 take on totally new meaning, and you as a former Gentile, will really praise God the Father for his wonderful plan. And you will not be upset that Jesus was only speaking to the Jews in the 4 Gospels. :)
Wow, upon reading Stephen preaching in Acts 7 again, I just realized Stephen summed up in the same way:

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Breaking his conclusion down:
  1. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? (Rejection of God the Father in the OT)
  2. whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers (Rejection of Jesus in the 4 Gospels)
  3. ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye (Rejection of the Holy Spirit now)
He certainly was not preaching to them "Believe in Jesus's death burial and resurrection for you sins, and you will be forever justified!" :)
 

JamOn

Well-known member
Jun 10, 2019
1,264
472
83
#14
The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant Matthew 18 ESV
21 Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times.
23 “Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants.[a] 24 When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents.[b] 25 And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 So the servant[c] fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ 27 And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. 28 But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii,[d] and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay what you owe.’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ 30 He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt. 31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place. 32 Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ 34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers,[e] until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”

Does this mean that if we do not forgive a brother that God will then "unforgive" our sins? That seems a bit like a harsh God! But I am wondering what is the correct way to interpret Matthew 6:12; and you may be right that this parable is a similar teaching?
Why does it seem a bit harsh?
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
1,608
764
113
#15
The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant Matthew 18 ESV
21 Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times.
23 “Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants.[a] 24 When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents.[b] 25 And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 So the servant[c] fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ 27 And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. 28 But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii,[d] and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay what you owe.’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ 30 He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt. 31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place. 32 Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ 34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers,[e] until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”

Does this mean that if we do not forgive a brother that God will then "unforgive" our sins? That seems a bit like a harsh God! But I am wondering what is the correct way to interpret Matthew 6:12; and you may be right that this parable is a similar teaching?
No.
Our sins are under the blood of Jesus for all our lives. God does not remove His grace from us once we are reborn in the Son.

The parable pertains to those who are not yet in Christ and the consequences of a hard heart. However, the parable as pertains to those who are in Christ is that the man that went to prison in the parable is the consequence we would have suffered , an example, were we not bought with a price and our sin debt was not paid by Christ dying on the cross.
Therefore, if we who are in Christ ever think we cannot forgive someone their trespass against us, we are to be reminded of that parable in the Book of Matthew.

The King in that parable is comparable to the King of Heaven. A great judge when the whole world's unrepentant sinners sins are debts that make them dead in those sins. But God , like that king in the parable, extended His grace to us, who are servants of the most high, be we sinner or saint. Our debts, when we are saved, are forgiven.

But what if we, who like that servant in the parable that have had our debts forgiven refuse to forgive the debt someone owes us? Their trespass, their sin, that debt, against us. If we refuse to forgive that fellow servant we are like then unto the ungrace-filled servant in the parable. And it will be as if we have forgotten our trespasses against the King of Heaven and the debt He forgave us. Putting us in a figurative prison of ingratitude, and hypocrisy thinking we are not to extend the grace to others as was extended to us.
But if we do not forgive someone, and it doesn't have to be instantaneous as soon as someone does something that needs our forgiveness, like say , going to the extreme of affronts, murder of our family. We are not expected to forgive in an instant upon hearing that horrific news. We'd be in shock. However, we are to find forgiveness for that murderer eventually. Because after such a shock we'd seek God through prayer and meditation. And in that healing of our broken heart God would lead us to extend forgiveness to that one that broke it. Because when they killed our family they killed themselves also.
By the law of man. And by the law of God, thou shalt not murder.

Forgiveness is for our sake then. And it also helps the one forgiven. Many people have found their way to Christ due to that simple example a Christian extended to them as evidence of the grace of God alive and at work in that Christians life.

I hope my explanation helped you.
God Bless.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
1,608
764
113
#16
thats what Jesus said yes but why was salvation so difficult back then and so easy now?
People then were saved by their faith. The blood of animals was as atonement for sins. This is why the last unblemished lamb of God was the last sin offering that would atone for the sins of the whole world. Because blood atoned for sins.

The Book of Hebrews chapter 9
19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.” 21 And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. 22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
1,608
764
113
#17
Under The law of Moses, God won’t forgive you if you don’t forgive people.
Would you please share with us the Old Testament Bible book, chapter and verse(s) where we are taught this? Thank you in advance.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,493
1,002
113
#18
Teach us that mercy triumphs over judgement in view of your great mercy. Help us to know when we think you might be angry with us not to look for fault in others .Man's anger does not bring about the righteous life you desire of us.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
2,287
443
83
#19
Would you please share with us the Old Testament Bible book, chapter and verse(s) where we are taught this? Thank you in advance.
Jesus said it himself and he is God in the flesh. He magnified the law to its true intent and he being the author, is qualified to do that

Not enough? 🤗
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
1,608
764
113
#20
Jesus said it himself and he is God in the flesh. He magnified the law to its true intent and he being the author, is qualified to do that

Not enough? 🤗
No, it is not. You cannot ascribe to God as you did a judgment against persons in the Old Testament that is not in God's own words. (Scripture)