Free Gifts Come With Conditions....

[eternally-gratefull]

Them being God's children by the promise is not the issue.

It most certainly is the issue, Our salvation makes us children of promise, God offers to bless all children of God with blessings, of things such as manna,

He does not offer to those things which are not his children, or called out ones

The issue is God gave them of His grace free manna to eat. That free gift came with the conditions the Hebrews do the work of gathering. So did their work in gathering mean they earned the manna? No. That work was simply a condition attached to the free gift of manna.

No. That is not the issue.

the issue is God did what he did to us all. He offers us blessings, by grace (we can never earn it) and asked us to take it. It is NOT A WORK TO TAKE IT.

your trying to mix a condition of someone recieving something, and equating it with works. Does not compute..

next.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What does not compute is you tying to get them eating the manna without them first doing the work of having to gather it.

You have an impossible problem here to find a way around.

You keep saying "doing the work did not save them" but if they did not do the work of gathering would they would not have had the manna to eat? NO! for the manna would have just continued to lay upon the ground while they just sat and looked at it while remaining hungry.

I pray you never give your children any gifts.. They will call you a liar. and tell you to stop giving them gifts. because you always make them earn their gifts.. making them no gifts at all

 

[SeaBass]

yet they would still be called the called out children of God.

AMazing isn't it. True example of grace

God making them his chosen people is not the issue.

If they had not done the work of gathering, would they have had manna to eat to fill their hunger?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They could have had all the "faith only" in the world, but they were never going to have the manna to eat until they first did the work of gathering it.


God gave them the manna to eat, but they had to do the work in gathering it.

lol. still blind are you?

if they did not take the food. THEY HAD NO FAITH PERIOD.

why do you bother coming in here? You make statements in one breath, then contradict yourself in the next. I do not think you even know what you believe.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And if they became greedy the manna would wither.

yes, because it was self works.. Which God will not recieve.. but he will reject. God is not going to honor works designed to puff up self, or satisfy self.

 

[SeaBass]

they can not see this aspect.

Here is a gift, do you want it.

Sure, then earn it by working to take it.

it does not make any sense.

How can you make theses statements when you have yet to show us how they would have the free manna to eat if they did not first do the work of gathering this free gift?

So you are saying them working to gather the free gift meant they earned it even though God had GIVEN it to them for free?

 

[SeaBass]

It most certainly is the issue, Our salvation makes us children of promise, God offers to bless all children of God with blessings, of things such as manna,

He does not offer to those things which are not his children, or called out ones



No. That is not the issue.

the issue is God did what he did to us all. He offers us blessings, by grace (we can never earn it) and asked us to take it. It is NOT A WORK TO TAKE IT.

your trying to mix a condition of someone recieving something, and equating it with works. Does not compute..

next.

You are trying to change the issue.

You are having a hard time in them getting this free gift of manna from God WITHOUT them having to work to gather this free gift. It was a WORK for them to take the manna though you say "it is not a work to take it".

The point being of this thread that free gifts can come with conditions and God's free gift of manna came with the condition they work to gather it. If God had not given them the manna then they would have no work of gathering for there would have been no free gift to gather.

So the gathering in no way earned them anything but was a condition God put upon His free gift of manna to them.

Likewise obedience to God's will in no way earns the free gift of eternal life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's funny. So just faith wouldn't cause me to take it, but trust would huh?

Um, if you have trust, you have faith, if you do not trust, You have NO FAITH.

I guess you do not understand this basic fact?

But I can both believe and trust you, and still never extend my hand to receive what you are giving me.

No. You can't. not if I am offering you a gift so precious you life depends on it (which is what the gift of eternal life is) You may belief I have it, but not trust it, thus you would not take it due to lack of faith, but if you trust me, you would take it without asking any questions.

Ah, now this is very interesting my friend. You say that the manna was given and it belonged to them whether they ate it or not. And you are comparing this to salvation right? Because that IS what this thread is about. So what you are saying then is that salvation has been given to everyone whether they DO anything about it or not. Now you are proving my point. Salvation is AVAILABLE to whosoever will. But whether they DO anything about it is completely up to them. So yes, salvation has been given (made available) to all men. But all men are not saved because they must DO something about what has been given to them.

So taking it when it is placed in your hand or at your feet is doing something that we can take credit for (a work)

ok.

Following SeaBass's example, and your own statements, once the manna was on the ground, it was theirs. They did nothing to earn or deserve that. It was simply what God did for his chosen people. But guess what happened if they left the manna on the ground? It rotted.

lol. Just like the offer of salvation will rot if one dies and does not recieve it. Same example. same proof.

But where does works come into the picture?

Now lets imagine one of the Israelites, and for the sake of fun, (i hope you can take a joke) lets call him eternally-hungry.
Mr. Eternally-hungry wakes up in the morning and sees the manna on the ground and he gets excited and says' "God has provided for me and I didn't even have to work for it! I just woke up and the manna is here! Yes, I accept your free gift God!" And then Mr. Eternally-hungry walks back into his house shouting and dancing and praising God for giving him the free gift of manna. But 2 hours later his stomach is rumbling and he is still in there dancing and shouting, only a little slower now because of hunger pangs. But he will not go and pick up the manna because he doesn't have to work for it. Its right there on the ground and he doesn't have to do anything else because it is a gift that has been freely given to him!

This is a ridiculous statement. It is not a work to pick it up. God placed it at my feet. All I did was recieve it. That is not a work.

Thats like saying to your wife. Here hun, I have a present for you. Earn your present and work for it by holding out your hand while I give it to you.

The gift is your wifes.

If she trusts you, She will do the work produced by that trust and open it. (proving she had faith in you) If not, it will sit there and she will never benefit from the reward of having it.

It was not her work that gave her the gift, You did. The gift was freely given,

We all know how absolutely ridiculous that is and yet this is exactly what James was talking about in James chapter 2. He even specifically asks the question CAN FAITH SAVE YOU? The obvious answer in its context is NO! You need to do something about your faith!

No it is not.

1. He said CAN your claimed faith save you. He never claimed they had any faith, on the contrary, he stated their faith was dead (non existant)

James said, IF YOU CLAIM TO HAVE FAITH.. The context was to those people who went around telling everyone they had faith. Not that they actually had any.

2. As already proven, Abraham was deemed righteous before he did one work. And james used this as an example to prove his point. Abrahams faith was not dead. because AFTER he was saved (his claim to have faith) he proved his faith BY HIS WORK. But he was saved BEFORE he did one work. thus not seen as a liar

 

[john832]

...and working to meet the attached conditions cannot earn the free gift already being given. This is a very simple concept some have trouble understanding while others simply do not care to understand it.

Biblical examples:


Exodus 16:

God owed the Israelites nothing but because of His grace God sent them the free gift of manna. Yet the free gift came with the condition of the Israelites doing the work of gathering the manna. Had the Israelites not done the work of gathering the manna (faith only) then they would have remained hungry. Therefore they must have done the work of gathering the manna in order to receive this free gift from God yet the work of gathering earned them nothing.

And this my friend is my understanding of Law and Grace. Obedience does not EARN on anything, but God can and does put conditions on the gift He gives.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God making them his chosen people is not the issue.

If they had not done the work of gathering, would they have had manna to eat to fill their hunger?

Jesus said search for food which does not die, but which endures forever.

If you eat the food he offers, you will never hunger, never thirst, live forever, Never die, And be assured he WILL raise you on the last day.

What work did he reuire to recieve this food,?

"it is the work of God that you believe in the one he sent'

If you want to eat manna every day because you have not been made alive in Christ, thats up to you.

Me? I have eaten the food God gave me, which will endure forever. Unlike the manna in the dessert which died.

Keep eating. You hunger because you have not eaten the food God offers. or you would never need to search for food again.

Next!!

 

[SeaBass]

I pray you never give your children any gifts.. They will call you a liar. and tell you to stop giving them gifts. because you always make them earn their gifts.. making them no gifts at all

I can give people gifts without conditions if I so choose.

But what if I gave someone a certificate for a free medium pizza. Since the receiver of the gift must do the works of calling and placing the order and going and picking the pizza up, that means it was not a free gift from me?

If this person told the cashier at the pizza place they "earned" that pizza, would they be telling the truth?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How can you make theses statements when you have yet to show us how they would have the free manna to eat if they did not first do the work of gathering this free gift?

They did no work to make the gift appear. God gave it to them, all they had to do was take it. This is NOT WORK.

Try to understand what a work is..

So you are saying them working to gather the free gift meant they earned it even though God had GIVEN it to them for free?

Nope. because it is NOT WORK TO RECIEVE SOMETHING YOU ARE GIVEN.

A biblical defenition of a work is something you can be proud of. You can boast of. you can take credit for. Can I be proud of the fact, take credit for the fact, Boast of the fact I took a free will offering I did nothing to deserve from someone who cared enough to give it to me??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are trying to change the issue.

You are having a hard time in them getting this free gift of manna from God WITHOUT them having to work to gather this free gift. It was a WORK for them to take the manna though you say "it is not a work to take it".

The point being of this thread that free gifts can come with conditions and God's free gift of manna came with the condition they work to gather it. If God had not given them the manna then they would have no work of gathering for there would have been no free gift to gather.

So the gathering in no way earned them anything but was a condition God put upon His free gift of manna to them.

Likewise obedience to God's will in no way earns the free gift of eternal life.

No,

You are.

Your trying to use the fact people recieved something they did not deserve (a gift) and using this to promote your works based gospel.

it will not work.

God did the work of giving them the manna, GOD GETS ALL THE CREDIT. It is HIS WORK THEY WERE TRUSTING IN.

Not their own.

Stop trying to justify your works. and recieve the gift God is offering you. He wants yuo to take the food which endures forever, which will never fade away, do you want his work. or do you want a flawed gift which is no gift at all. and fades away because it has no power?

 

[john832]

True eternal. But their lives were still conditional upon faith. But I do agree a gift is free indeed.

When someone gives you a gift, they had to earn it. While it is in their hand they are entitled to put conditions on it. Peter understood this principle...

Act 5:4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

 

[SeaBass]

lol. still blind are you?

if they did not take the food. THEY HAD NO FAITH PERIOD.

why do you bother coming in here? You make statements in one breath, then contradict yourself in the next. I do not think you even know what you believe.

If they had not done the work of gathering the manna then they NEVER would have had the manna to eat whether they had any faith or not. So if they had faith, then that faith MUST have included the work of gathering food if they wanted it to eat.

You have simply put yourself in the impossible position in trying to get them the free gift of manna WITHOUT them having to work to gather it so they could eat it. You're struggling mightily right now and instead of working out your impossible problem, you attack me.

 

[apostolic862004]

lol. Does not compute. your example does not fit. He gave it to everyone, it was their's whether they ate it or not. Going to do the work did not save them, it was their faith that saved them. Picking it up PROVED they had faith.

Oh I get it. So lets say there is a man that murders someone. Then he runs and finds you and says "I have a free gift for you" and he puts the murder weapon on the floor in front of you. According to what you are saying, the weapon is now yours whether you grab it or not. It was a free gift to you from the murderer and it was his work that gave it to you. Am I right? It is automatically yours and you don't have to do a thing about it because it was given to you freely.

 

[john832]

The manna was already given, lying on the ground. That's like saying opening the gift wrap is a condition to receiving the gift.

No conditions whatsoever?

Exo 16:19 And Moses said, "Let no one leave any of it till morning."
Exo 16:20 Notwithstanding they did not heed Moses. But some of them left part of it until morning, and it bred worms and stank. And Moses was angry with them.

No conditions whatsoever?

Exo 16:22 And so it was, on the sixth day, that they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. And all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.
Exo 16:23 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD has said: 'Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.' "
Exo 16:24 So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it.
Exo 16:25 Then Moses said, "Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.
Exo 16:26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none."
Exo 16:27 Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none.
Exo 16:28 And the LORD said to Moses, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?

God placed conditions on the gathering of manna.

 

[SeaBass]

And this my friend is my understanding of Law and Grace. Obedience does not EARN on anything, but God can and does put conditions on the gift He gives.

This is not a hard thing to understand....unless one holds to the teaching of "faith only". They put themselves in the position where they cannot allow themselves to understand it.

 

[john832]

I have said the manna was a free gift of God's grace to the people.

If they were to eat the manna then they must do the work of gathering. God did not gather it for them, that was a work they had to do.

You are trying hard to figure out a way to for them to eat the manna without them having to do any work of gathering. It's YOUR argument that is the one without logical basis.

As my above post shows, there were even conditions concerning gathering it.

 

[StoneThrower]

the bible does not say the cross was grace (free)

No it says you were bought with a price.