Free Will verses Fate/Divine Intervention: Judas Iscariot "free will" verses Saul/Paul "fate"

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Jul 22, 2019
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#1
Judas Iscariot was unrepentant of his sin of stealing from the money box this "choice" he made allowed Satan the ability to possess him so that he betrayed Jesus. The apostle Paul on the other hand was unrepentant about sinning against Christians, but Jesus knowing Paul's heart, devinely intervened and personally requested Paul to follow him. Any thoughts on whether salvation is a choice or fate?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#2
Any thoughts on whether salvation is a choice or fate?
The examples of Judas Iscariot and Saul of Tarsus are unique and may not be used for a general understanding of salvation.

JUDAS -- Jesus (in His divine foreknowledge) knew that Judas was a devil and the Son of Perdition, yet he was selected to be an apostle because he would fulfil the role of Christ's betrayer (which was prophesied in Scripture). So Satan took possession of him, and he betrayed Christ, and even though he was remorseful after that, he did not go to the Lord to ask for forgiveness. Instead he took his own life and "went to his own place".

SAUL -- was a zealous Pharisee, and because of that he was a persecutor of Christians. But he believed he was serving God with all his heart until he was confronted by Christ on the road to Damascus. But again, Jesus (in His divine foreknowledge) knew that Saul would truly repent and be converted, and go on to be the leading Christian apostle and New Testament writer. Therefore he had already been elected by God to serve in that role. But he would also suffer many things.

When it comes to the rest of humanity, it is God's desire that none should perish, and that all men should be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth. And that is why the Gospel and the Great Commission have been given to the Church. Which means that God elects or predestines no one for either salvation or damnation.
 
Jul 22, 2019
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#3
The examples of Judas Iscariot and Saul of Tarsus are unique and may not be used for a general understanding of salvation.

JUDAS -- Jesus (in His divine foreknowledge) knew that Judas was a devil and the Son of Perdition, yet he was selected to be an apostle because he would fulfil the role of Christ's betrayer (which was prophesied in Scripture). So Satan took possession of him, and he betrayed Christ, and even though he was remorseful after that, he did not go to the Lord to ask for forgiveness. Instead he took his own life and "went to his own place".

SAUL -- was a zealous Pharisee, and because of that he was a persecutor of Christians. But he believed he was serving God with all his heart until he was confronted by Christ on the road to Damascus. But again, Jesus (in His divine foreknowledge) knew that Saul would truly repent and be converted, and go on to be the leading Christian apostle and New Testament writer. Therefore he had already been elected by God to serve in that role. But he would also suffer many things.

When it comes to the rest of humanity, it is God's desire that none should perish, and that all men should be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth. And that is why the Gospel and the Great Commission have been given to the Church. Which means that God elects or predestines no one for either salvation or damnation.
Judas was a man just like any other, if by saying "Judas was a devil" you mean he was a liar then again yes he was human. Judas however unlike many people committed the unforgivable sin, he was in the presence of and ate with and fellowshipped with the Holy Spirit of GOD and still chose to sin against GOD's Spirit. Judas being knowledgable of this fact knew forgiveness was not possible.
Saul was given the Holy Spirit of GOD even when he did not request it. Jesus foreknowledge does not dismiss the fact that this was devine intervention.
For a person to receive the Holy Spirit of GOD devine intervention is required. Free will is usually what gets a person into trouble giving our will over to GOD and asking that his will be done is usually what causes Jesus to ask his Father to intervene on our behalf. Just food for thought. Thank-you so much for engaging in conversation with me I love talking about GOD and Jesus and Scripture this is such a delight for my soul to find others with my passion. Though we may differ in thought or opinion GOD desires that none should perish. We do agree on that Love in our Lord Jesus the Christ.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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#4
Judas Iscariot was unrepentant of his sin of stealing from the money box this "choice" he made allowed Satan the ability to possess him so that he betrayed Jesus. The apostle Paul on the other hand was unrepentant about sinning against Christians, but Jesus knowing Paul's heart, devinely intervened and personally requested Paul to follow him. Any thoughts on whether salvation is a choice or fate?
.Judas was a devil from the beginning, never clean, a thief holding the bag and the Son of Perdition....HE was never saved

Paul stated clearly that what he had done he had done out of ignorance............
 
Jul 22, 2019
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#5
.Judas was a devil from the beginning, never clean, a thief holding the bag and the Son of Perdition....HE was never saved

Paul stated clearly that what he had done he had done out of ignorance............
Thank-you for your input, scriptural references to go with them would be appreciated. I cannot judge Judas' heart only GOD can do that.
Matthew 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. GOD be with you
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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#6
Thank-you for your input, scriptural references to go with them would be appreciated. I cannot judge Judas' heart only GOD can do that.
Matthew 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. GOD be with you
I can judge by what the word of God had to say about him.....and all 4 references are found in scripture....the 5th statement is a deduced biblical conclusion based upon the first 4 factual truths......
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#7
Judas was a man just like any other, if by saying "Judas was a devil" you mean he was a liar then again yes he was human.
It is entirely possible that since Christ unequivocally called him "a devil" (literally a demon) Judas was a demon who had taken the form of a man (or possessed this man). It would appear that "the Beast" (the Antichrist) will also be a demon who comes out of the Bottomless Pit. So when the Bible says that "he went to his own place" it could be that he was sent back to this Pit.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#8
Judas Iscariot was unrepentant of his sin of stealing from the money box this "choice" he made allowed Satan the ability to possess him so that he betrayed Jesus. The apostle Paul on the other hand was unrepentant about sinning against Christians, but Jesus knowing Paul's heart, devinely intervened and personally requested Paul to follow him. Any thoughts on whether salvation is a choice or fate?
It is a choice and it is foreknown by God who will and who will not make that choice.. So to God it is fate.. But to us it is choice.. So it is Choice and Fate together at the same time..
 
Jul 22, 2019
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#9
I can judge by what the word of God had to say about him.....and all 4 references are found in scripture....the 5th statement is a deduced biblical conclusion based upon the first 4 factual truths......
John 6:69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him.
When Jesus states one of you is a devil you have to be able to translate the english word devil back to its greek origin then it can be translated into "one who separates" or "slanderer" "across I throw", So in this passage it is my thought that Jesus is decribing Judas a man as a slanderer he's not calling him: the entity we call "Satan" the ruler of this earth who was the original opposer of GOD; this is stated in the very next passage where it is clarified he is a mere man son of Simon Iscariot.
Most of the titles we use for the entity who separates us from GOD, are descriptions of who and what this entity is, was, does or stands for Satan=adversary , Devil=slanderer, Lucifer=bright morning star (angel), Beelzeboul=lord of the flies and the list goes on.
Love in the Lord Jesus the Christ
 
Jul 22, 2019
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#10
It is entirely possible that since Christ unequivocally called him "a devil" (literally a demon) Judas was a demon who had taken the form of a man (or possessed this man). It would appear that "the Beast" (the Antichrist) will also be a demon who comes out of the Bottomless Pit. So when the Bible says that "he went to his own place" it could be that he was sent back to this Pit.
do you believe the greek word for devil and the greek word for demon are the same?
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
41,527
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#11
John 6:69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray him.
When Jesus states one of you is a devil you have to be able to translate the english word devil back to its greek origin then it can be translated into "one who separates" or "slanderer" "across I throw", So in this passage it is my thought that Jesus is decribing Judas a man as a slanderer he's not calling him: the entity we call "Satan" the ruler of this earth who was the original opposer of GOD; this is stated in the very next passage where it is clarified he is a mere man son of Simon Iscariot.
Most of the titles we use for the entity who separates us from GOD, are descriptions of who and what this entity is, was, does or stands for Satan=adversary , Devil=slanderer, Lucifer=bright morning star (angel), Beelzeboul=lord of the flies and the list goes on.
Love in the Lord Jesus the Christ
You obviously have no understanding of a "BE" verb........try studying the word translated "IS" and the definite ARTICLE "THE" -->THE SON of PERDITION

and then embrace the TRUTH......NO need to respond if you are not going to look the words up, study the implication, and then be honest...
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
3,629
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#12
Judas Iscariot was unrepentant of his sin of stealing from the money box this "choice" he made allowed Satan the ability to possess him so that he betrayed Jesus. The apostle Paul on the other hand was unrepentant about sinning against Christians, but Jesus knowing Paul's heart, devinely intervened and personally requested Paul to follow him. Any thoughts on whether salvation is a choice or fate?
I think its both...

Judas was remorseful after he betrayed Jesus but he killed himself before he had the chance to be forgiven.
PAul did make a choice to follow Jesus after being spoken to, he could have turned away and not obeyed. He would have stayed blind if he hadnt asked forgiveness or repented though.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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2,910
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#13
Judas was remorseful after he betrayed Jesus but he killed himself before he had the chance to be forgiven.
What makes you think Judas did not have a chance to be forgiven? Anyone could walk up to the cross of Christ on that fateful day. Indeed His enemies stood around mocking Him. Therefore Judas could have walked up and asked for forgiveness (if he had a mind to).
 
Jul 17, 2019
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#14
For those who don't believe in free will, oh well *feeling apathetic*
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#15
do you believe the greek word for devil and the greek word for demon are the same?
No. Those are two different Greek words. The devil is diabolos, but the word for demon is daimonion. However in John 6:70, the word diabolos is used, and correctly translated as "a devil". So here Judas was equated with Satan.
 
Jul 17, 2019
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#16
The purpose of free will is "weighing the options" and make the best decision from "weighing the options"; therefore, one should learn how to best "weigh the options". In another words, "ask for wisdom", and we all have the free will to decide whether to "ask for wisdom" or not.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#17
Judas Iscariot was unrepentant of his sin of stealing from the money box this "choice" he made allowed Satan the ability to possess him so that he betrayed Jesus. The apostle Paul on the other hand was unrepentant about sinning against Christians, but Jesus knowing Paul's heart, devinely intervened and personally requested Paul to follow him. Any thoughts on whether salvation is a choice or fate?
Paul still had to make a choice to recieve Gods gift. He could have rejected that and we never would have heard

Judas chose to reject from the beginning, thats why he continued to sin.
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
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#18
Judas Iscariot was unrepentant of his sin of stealing from the money box this "choice" he made allowed Satan the ability to possess him so that he betrayed Jesus. The apostle Paul on the other hand was unrepentant about sinning against Christians, but Jesus knowing Paul's heart, devinely intervened and personally requested Paul to follow him. Any thoughts on whether salvation is a choice or fate?
It's a choice, not fate. God intervenes in all our lives; not just Paul's.
 
Jul 22, 2019
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#19
You obviously have no understanding of a "BE" verb........try studying the word translated "IS" and the definite ARTICLE "THE" -->THE SON of PERDITION

and then embrace the TRUTH......NO need to respond if you are not going to look the words up, study the implication, and then be honest...
Good Morning dcontroversal, I had a lovely week-end I hope you did also. Everything that I feel, say or reiterate concerning the Lord Jesus or his Father or Scripture is directly a result of the knowledge given to me by the Holy Spirit of GOD that resides within me for without this I am blind and have no knowledge other than what mere man could teach me. I have no intention nor would I ever want to attempt to change anothers beliefs, if GOD has shown you a different aspect to his word; then his will be done.
I feel a persons job is to present themselves as examples of Jesus and let the light of GOD the Father shine from their eyes and words. I believe that when in an attempt to share the message that has given to you by the Holy Spirit you should be sure that the fruits of the Holy Spirit are visible within your teaching.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
People of GOD are known by these fruits.
If you cannot speak to me using these fruits of the Spirit, than I lovingly request that we discontinue talking. I thanked GOD on Friday for the wonderful gift of this site, so that I could share with my fellow man the message that the Spirit has given me.
When I look at the manner in which you present your views I find them harsh and unpleasant; when you call yourself a Christian "a disciple of Christ" you are representing Christ and what he taught. Your calling me "ignorant=lacking in knowledge" or telling me I have no understanding and suggesting that I translate words like be, is and the; this is not teaching from Christ and is not fruits of the Spirit of GOD. If you presented yourself in this manner to one who was not firm in their faith, your teaching manner and representation might in all likelihood "turn a person away from Christianity" I have been shown the "truth" I am sorry that yours and my "truth" differ. I will not look up the words be, is and the, I feel no desire to do so.
Please if you respond to any of my posts do so with the fruits of the Spirit or I will no longer respond. May the Holy Spirit of GOD be with you.
 

Smooth

Well-known member
Jul 22, 2019
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#20
Judas Iscariot was unrepentant of his sin of stealing from the money box this "choice" he made allowed Satan the ability to possess him so that he betrayed Jesus. The apostle Paul on the other hand was unrepentant about sinning against Christians, but Jesus knowing Paul's heart, devinely intervened and personally requested Paul to follow him. Any thoughts on whether salvation is a choice or fate?
IMO Judas Iscariot’s suicide was repentance. If it were not so, he would have thoroughly enjoyed those 30 pieces of silver.