-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
- Status
K
To me, there's nothing in your answer that makes me believe you've demonstrated free will. If all our actions are preordained, your "choice" was only an apparent choice. You couldn't have chosen differently, even if you thought you could. The illusion of free will can exist even when everything is deterministic.
So, this is my confusion - could we tell if everything was preordained? Could we tell if we had free will? I don't see how, so I'm not sure what practical implications the original question has.
So, this is my confusion - could we tell if everything was preordained? Could we tell if we had free will? I don't see how, so I'm not sure what practical implications the original question has.
K
I'm not sure how that follows, apologies. Even if a fire doesn't intend to burn you, it still burns you. Even if a sinner's actions are preordained, he's still broken God's law. Even earthly judges will lock someone up who has committed a crime, even if we don't believe the criminal was in control of himself.
I glenwood,
thaks for your post. I was just stating the 2 positions. I believed that a someone who is reformed is saved I also believe that some who believes that they chose all by them selves with God's initiating grace are also saved.
The tunnel of time, was not originally my statement as I said, an Armenian view point. Maybe I didn't make my point clear at that stage. I believe God has acted for His people throughout all time. I also believe we have freewill, I also stated that as well. I can get up in the morning and choose to put on a shirt and not a jumper, i can choose to sin or not, but the I know a swell as you do the spirit in me pricks ur conscience but doesnt stop you.
so basically I agree with what you say, I really do and so will 98% of Calvinists. (im not to keen on the word Calvinist, it misleads, but thats what people use, I prefer the proper name, reformed)
But I do believe that we are not free in the spiritual realm do you? your are either a slave to your father Satan (negative sense) or our Lord Jesus (positive sense) that's primarily where the defining of free will causes confusion.
So every one please stop thinking that a reformed position is against free will (in the physical sense) but we are in the (Spiritual sense).
both are saved, I'l bring your attention to 2 of the greatest preachers from England, Wesley and Whitefield one was reformed and one was not yet they both worked together and brought about a great revival. both were saved and both would say each other were saved.
This is one of these point that we could argue over until our Lord comes back, and then, when that happens it won't matter, for together we will worship our Lord for all eternity.
just to make it clear although I am reformed I am not sying anyone else is not saved that is wrong and most reformers would agree with that.
I'm not sure how many people actually know what 'reformed' is? there seems to be a lot of confusion. anyhow, some preachers you might know in the states (since most on here seem to be in the state) who are reformed would be: Mark Driscoll, Al mohler, R C Sproul, John Mac Arthur, John Piper, Matt Chandler, CJ Mahaney I use these names as they are international names. I only give these names incase you want to know more (not you personally glenwood).
I have read tonnes of books from pastors/scholars who arent reformed and they are great men of God.
Kind regards
Phil
thaks for your post. I was just stating the 2 positions. I believed that a someone who is reformed is saved I also believe that some who believes that they chose all by them selves with God's initiating grace are also saved.
The tunnel of time, was not originally my statement as I said, an Armenian view point. Maybe I didn't make my point clear at that stage. I believe God has acted for His people throughout all time. I also believe we have freewill, I also stated that as well. I can get up in the morning and choose to put on a shirt and not a jumper, i can choose to sin or not, but the I know a swell as you do the spirit in me pricks ur conscience but doesnt stop you.
so basically I agree with what you say, I really do and so will 98% of Calvinists. (im not to keen on the word Calvinist, it misleads, but thats what people use, I prefer the proper name, reformed)
But I do believe that we are not free in the spiritual realm do you? your are either a slave to your father Satan (negative sense) or our Lord Jesus (positive sense) that's primarily where the defining of free will causes confusion.
So every one please stop thinking that a reformed position is against free will (in the physical sense) but we are in the (Spiritual sense).
both are saved, I'l bring your attention to 2 of the greatest preachers from England, Wesley and Whitefield one was reformed and one was not yet they both worked together and brought about a great revival. both were saved and both would say each other were saved.
This is one of these point that we could argue over until our Lord comes back, and then, when that happens it won't matter, for together we will worship our Lord for all eternity.
just to make it clear although I am reformed I am not sying anyone else is not saved that is wrong and most reformers would agree with that.
I'm not sure how many people actually know what 'reformed' is? there seems to be a lot of confusion. anyhow, some preachers you might know in the states (since most on here seem to be in the state) who are reformed would be: Mark Driscoll, Al mohler, R C Sproul, John Mac Arthur, John Piper, Matt Chandler, CJ Mahaney I use these names as they are international names. I only give these names incase you want to know more (not you personally glenwood).
I have read tonnes of books from pastors/scholars who arent reformed and they are great men of God.
Kind regards
Phil
Hi Karuna, I think you have misred my meaning... I said even Calvinists would say we have free will.. I am a Calvinist.. what I ment it was a non brainer comment. and it wasnt realy aimed at anyone. I was talking about Calvinists of which I am.. not anyone with an opposing view.
That was my statement. not as you read it to be!
Kind regards
Phil
hello,
The truth is God has given us freewill to choose our own destination.That is because God wants people to dwell with Him for all eternity that made the choice to dwell with Him because then it is true love.
You can program your computer to say I love you but it does not love you.That is why God gave us free will to have people dwell with Him for all eternity that made the choice to dwell with God for all eternity because then it is true love.
God is an intelligent God and knows that He cannot force anybody to love Him because it is not true love.If God picks and chooses who will be saved then it would be robotic love of the people He chose to save.If God picks and chooses who will be saved then it would go against scripture that says that anybody that wants to be saved can be saved.If God picks and chooses who will be saved then God would be condemning people without them ever doing anything wrong yet when God is a good God and only touches people for good.
God does not pick and choose who will be saved but it is up to the individual to choose their own path.
People do not understand what predestination means but it is not that God picks and chooses who will be saved.
The truth.
9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world(John 1:9).
This passage states that Jesus lights every person that is born in to this world.That means everybody that is born in to this world has a chance to see the light of Jesus and be saved.
The Bible says that Jesus is the savior of the world.That means that anybody in the world can be saved.
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely(Revelation 22:17).
Whoever wants to be saved can be saved.
The Bible states that whoever wants to be saved can be saved.
(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were(Romans 4:17).
This passage states that God calls things which have not happened yet as though they already happened.If it is a plan of God in His mind to happen in the future then it is the same as if it already happened before it happened because it will surely come to pass.
8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world(Revelation 13:8).
This passage states that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world although we know it did not happen until 4000 years later.It was a plan of God in His mind in the beginning to give us the Lamb as a sacrifice for our sins so it was the same as if the Lamb was already slain in the beginning.
When the Bible says that God predestined us to salvation it does not mean that God picks and chooses who will be saved.It means that God already had the plan of salvation in His mind to give to humanity before He created anything so it was the same as if humanity already had salvation in the beginning because God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened.
God does not pick and choose who will be saved because it would go against His will and nature.The Bible says that anybody that wants to be saved can be saved.
Matt
The truth is God has given us freewill to choose our own destination.That is because God wants people to dwell with Him for all eternity that made the choice to dwell with Him because then it is true love.
You can program your computer to say I love you but it does not love you.That is why God gave us free will to have people dwell with Him for all eternity that made the choice to dwell with God for all eternity because then it is true love.
God is an intelligent God and knows that He cannot force anybody to love Him because it is not true love.If God picks and chooses who will be saved then it would be robotic love of the people He chose to save.If God picks and chooses who will be saved then it would go against scripture that says that anybody that wants to be saved can be saved.If God picks and chooses who will be saved then God would be condemning people without them ever doing anything wrong yet when God is a good God and only touches people for good.
God does not pick and choose who will be saved but it is up to the individual to choose their own path.
People do not understand what predestination means but it is not that God picks and chooses who will be saved.
The truth.
9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world(John 1:9).
This passage states that Jesus lights every person that is born in to this world.That means everybody that is born in to this world has a chance to see the light of Jesus and be saved.
The Bible says that Jesus is the savior of the world.That means that anybody in the world can be saved.
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely(Revelation 22:17).
Whoever wants to be saved can be saved.
The Bible states that whoever wants to be saved can be saved.
(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were(Romans 4:17).
This passage states that God calls things which have not happened yet as though they already happened.If it is a plan of God in His mind to happen in the future then it is the same as if it already happened before it happened because it will surely come to pass.
8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world(Revelation 13:8).
This passage states that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world although we know it did not happen until 4000 years later.It was a plan of God in His mind in the beginning to give us the Lamb as a sacrifice for our sins so it was the same as if the Lamb was already slain in the beginning.
When the Bible says that God predestined us to salvation it does not mean that God picks and chooses who will be saved.It means that God already had the plan of salvation in His mind to give to humanity before He created anything so it was the same as if humanity already had salvation in the beginning because God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened.
God does not pick and choose who will be saved because it would go against His will and nature.The Bible says that anybody that wants to be saved can be saved.
Matt
Hi Matt,
your are correct, God want to dwell with us, And that is part of the 'Meta-story' of the Bible. from Eden to the new Jerusalem.
"8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world(Revelation 13:8)."
What actually does this verse say Matt? " whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"
Peter says that God 'caused us to be born again' check Ephesians 1:4 "chose us before the foundation" v5 "he predestined...into adoption"
Does 'whosoever' really mean everyone can if they want to? but choose not? didn't Jesus say they are condemned already, Paul put its a similar way 'dead to sin'
As I say I think alot of people are confused as to what Calvinism is.. I don't know how many time I have to say it, yes you have free will, but not Spirituall free will (discernment), you are either in darkness, condemned already (Jesus' words) or a slave to Christ. the big question is How do you come from being dead to sin, slave to it and love darkness and a son of your father the devil? it is God who initiates this change not you. read Ezekial 36:26-27.
but we could argue this till the cows come home lol, and many greater men than us have. anyhow have a good evening. Plus if you look back there have been a few debates over this one lol.
Kind regards
Phil
your are correct, God want to dwell with us, And that is part of the 'Meta-story' of the Bible. from Eden to the new Jerusalem.
"8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world(Revelation 13:8)."
What actually does this verse say Matt? " whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"
Peter says that God 'caused us to be born again' check Ephesians 1:4 "chose us before the foundation" v5 "he predestined...into adoption"
Does 'whosoever' really mean everyone can if they want to? but choose not? didn't Jesus say they are condemned already, Paul put its a similar way 'dead to sin'
As I say I think alot of people are confused as to what Calvinism is.. I don't know how many time I have to say it, yes you have free will, but not Spirituall free will (discernment), you are either in darkness, condemned already (Jesus' words) or a slave to Christ. the big question is How do you come from being dead to sin, slave to it and love darkness and a son of your father the devil? it is God who initiates this change not you. read Ezekial 36:26-27.
but we could argue this till the cows come home lol, and many greater men than us have. anyhow have a good evening. Plus if you look back there have been a few debates over this one lol.
Kind regards
Phil
I think even if a saved person believes in free will, calvinists believe in free agency btw but that is different in a sense, that they must also believe in predestination. Does not the potter have power over the clay, to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor? Shall the vessel say to the potter why have you made me this way?
Maybe some people should read some books by the reformers to better understand the WILL.
Maybe some people should read some books by the reformers to better understand the WILL.
lol free agency, is right. but not so easy to explain.
1.The term free agency is not automatically the same as free will when used by a Calvinist. It is the Calvinist's preferred term to free will. Preferred so as to avoid the confusion, personally I will use the term Free Will! and I believe in predestination, that is a given. but I will not rubbish those who are saved and don't see it that way.
2.God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good or evil.
Matt. xvii. 12; James i. 14; Deut. xxx. 19.
II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good, and well pleasing to God; but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it.
Eccl. vii. 29; Gen. i. 26; Gen. ii. 16, 17; Gen. iii. 6.
III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
Rom. v. 6; Rom. viii. 7; John xv. 5; Rom. iii. 10, 12; Eph. ii. 1, 5; Col. ii. 13; John vi. 44, 65; Eph. ii. 2, 3, 4, 5; 1 Cor. ii. 14; Titus iii. 3, 4, 5.
IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He freeth him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.
Col. i. 13; John viii. 34. 36; Phil. ii. 13; Rom. vi. 18, 22; Gal. v. 17; Rom. vii. 15, 18, 19, 21, 23.
V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only.
Eph. iv. 13; Heb. xii. 23; 1 John iii. 2; Jude. ver. 24.
(Westminster Confession of Faith ch9.)
Your totally correct reading reforemd literature tells you what the reformed believe.
Kind regards
Phil
1.The term free agency is not automatically the same as free will when used by a Calvinist. It is the Calvinist's preferred term to free will. Preferred so as to avoid the confusion, personally I will use the term Free Will! and I believe in predestination, that is a given. but I will not rubbish those who are saved and don't see it that way.
2.God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good or evil.
Matt. xvii. 12; James i. 14; Deut. xxx. 19.
II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good, and well pleasing to God; but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it.
Eccl. vii. 29; Gen. i. 26; Gen. ii. 16, 17; Gen. iii. 6.
III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
Rom. v. 6; Rom. viii. 7; John xv. 5; Rom. iii. 10, 12; Eph. ii. 1, 5; Col. ii. 13; John vi. 44, 65; Eph. ii. 2, 3, 4, 5; 1 Cor. ii. 14; Titus iii. 3, 4, 5.
IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He freeth him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.
Col. i. 13; John viii. 34. 36; Phil. ii. 13; Rom. vi. 18, 22; Gal. v. 17; Rom. vii. 15, 18, 19, 21, 23.
V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only.
Eph. iv. 13; Heb. xii. 23; 1 John iii. 2; Jude. ver. 24.
(Westminster Confession of Faith ch9.)
Your totally correct reading reforemd literature tells you what the reformed believe.
Kind regards
Phil
Last edited:
G
I said I would make a posting in regards to the topic, but wanted to wait a day or so to see what everyone had to say. Before I respond, let me just say, I made a post about a week ago in regards to faith and repentance, and how they are obtained, and I'll be using points from that same post in this response.
How does man “come to” God on his own “free will?” Or as Dr. James White once asked, “How does a dead-in-sin-and-trespasses sinner (Eph. 2:1-5) who is utterly insensible (Rom. 3:10-12), and hostile (Rom. 8:7) to the things of God, believe (1 Cor. 2:14)?”
[FONT="]Scripture says that there is no one that seeks after God, no not even one (Romans 3:10-18, Psalm 14:1-3). The natural condition of man does not allow man to just “repent” and “believe,” because as 1 Corinthians 2:14 puts it, the natural man is “spiritually appraised.” In other words, they’re spiritually dead, under the dominion of the god of this world (Ephesians 2:1-5), whose name isn’t even worthy of mention. And even from youth, the intent of the heart of man is corrupt (Genesis 8:21, Psalms 51:5, Jeremiah 17:9)! So did you, in your own free will, “choose” Jesus? Just how did you manage to pull that off? When the Apostle Paul was on his way to Damascus, did he have any intent on "choosing" Jesus? Wasn't he the one persecuting Christ (Christ took it personally, see Acts 9:5), up until the moment he was converted, which, might I add, God pursued, not Paul. Did Paul choose Christ, or did Christ choose Paul?
[/FONT]
Christ said in John 6:44, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.” With that said, was it possible for Pontius Pilate, Herod, or Pharaoh to just “repent,” and “believe?” Saying yes would then make an acute conflict with the scriptures, because Acts 4:24-28, and Romans 9 tells us that it's not even up to them, it's up to God, whom predestines! God does whatever He wants, when He wants, wherever He wants, and however He wants to do it! And if you have any objections to that, as the Apostle Paul said, "...who are you, O man, who answers back to God?" (Romans 9:20)
[FONT="]
Man can not come to repentance without it being given by God (Acts 5:31, Acts 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25), and the only reason you're believing isn't because you chose to believe in Jesus (John 15:16), but because it is a God gifted ability (2 Thessalonians 1:3, Philippians 1:29, Romans 12:3), and God chose you before the very foundation of the world! That is why you believe, and that is why people will never believe, because they are wolves, not sheep. [/FONT]
**Italics are of my own
How does man “come to” God on his own “free will?” Or as Dr. James White once asked, “How does a dead-in-sin-and-trespasses sinner (Eph. 2:1-5) who is utterly insensible (Rom. 3:10-12), and hostile (Rom. 8:7) to the things of God, believe (1 Cor. 2:14)?”
[FONT="]Scripture says that there is no one that seeks after God, no not even one (Romans 3:10-18, Psalm 14:1-3). The natural condition of man does not allow man to just “repent” and “believe,” because as 1 Corinthians 2:14 puts it, the natural man is “spiritually appraised.” In other words, they’re spiritually dead, under the dominion of the god of this world (Ephesians 2:1-5), whose name isn’t even worthy of mention. And even from youth, the intent of the heart of man is corrupt (Genesis 8:21, Psalms 51:5, Jeremiah 17:9)! So did you, in your own free will, “choose” Jesus? Just how did you manage to pull that off? When the Apostle Paul was on his way to Damascus, did he have any intent on "choosing" Jesus? Wasn't he the one persecuting Christ (Christ took it personally, see Acts 9:5), up until the moment he was converted, which, might I add, God pursued, not Paul. Did Paul choose Christ, or did Christ choose Paul?
[/FONT]
Christ said in John 6:44, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.” With that said, was it possible for Pontius Pilate, Herod, or Pharaoh to just “repent,” and “believe?” Saying yes would then make an acute conflict with the scriptures, because Acts 4:24-28, and Romans 9 tells us that it's not even up to them, it's up to God, whom predestines! God does whatever He wants, when He wants, wherever He wants, and however He wants to do it! And if you have any objections to that, as the Apostle Paul said, "...who are you, O man, who answers back to God?" (Romans 9:20)
[FONT="]
Man can not come to repentance without it being given by God (Acts 5:31, Acts 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25), and the only reason you're believing isn't because you chose to believe in Jesus (John 15:16), but because it is a God gifted ability (2 Thessalonians 1:3, Philippians 1:29, Romans 12:3), and God chose you before the very foundation of the world! That is why you believe, and that is why people will never believe, because they are wolves, not sheep. [/FONT]
**Italics are of my own
- Status