Free will vs Predestination
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C
I had a huge issue with this myself, coming from a body of beleivers who were calvinist and John bunyin who wrote pilgrams progress who was the same in oulook, then someone told me a quote that put it to rest for me, On the outside of the gates to heaven whosoever will may come in, on the inside of the gate Predestinated to be the sons of God, that came from someone cluey in theology I dont know who
Basically, predestination as spoken of in the bible is talking upon the pre-planned purposes and intent of God which are only blue-prints. However, God is limited in his ability for His will to be done on the earth - that's where our free will (or free choice rather) comes in. To obey or disobey, to believe or disbelieve, to accept, or reject. God will utlimately use the willing vessels to accomplish His will (with any necessary angelic support) and that is how His will gets done. That's why Jesus was careful to make sure He did the will of the Father and told us to pray "your will be done on earth". That's why people who went against God's will in the old testament were usually killed or something like that. Jonah is one good example. He knew God's will but didn't do it. Eventually God convinced (forced?) him to do it. God's will is always done in heaven because He rules in all of heaven and what He says is done - except of course by any rebellious angels that choose to turn against him. God's will may not always be done on earth - depending upon how much opposition there is against Him. God's will can be opposed or limited by distraction, delay, disobedience and rebellion.
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In terms of salvation, it is God's will for everyone to be saved. That's the blue print. Obviously not everyone is going to be saved because not everyone has heard and obeyed the Gospel. Everyone is predestined to salvation in as much as everyone is intended to accept Christ. But due to man's free choice, not everyone will hear and obey the Gospel. That's the reality. They won't hear because of the free choice which Christians have to evangelise the whole world or not - or, they choose not to listen once they are told the gospel. They won't obey due to their own hard heartedness and sin and love of the world more than love of God. But if they accept Christ, they become part of God's predetermined and predestined plan to save the whole world through His only begotten Son. Then all the past, present and future promises made to Abraham's Seed (Christ), and future eternal life and all those things, - are theirs. It's as if a temporary mortal human being is caught up in God's eternal plan, and so their personal individuality is lost in the far greater plan of God's predestination. It's like a human individual with free-choice chooses to jump into a strong flowing river current which will take them downstream to eternal life - a river which has flown ever since the creation of the world (and even before that I suppose, in God's mind).
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all calvinist up to this point has not been able to respond to this Question. if paul truely taught, the elect was predetermined to be in why did He say this
2ti 2:10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
even the most popular teacher on predestination today( MacCarther), says in His commentary. that there is some verses on free will that even he doesn't understand or can answer, Paul is not saying that He must do these things because he don't know who the elect is but rather even the elect did to obtain salvation.
2ti 2:10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
even the most popular teacher on predestination today( MacCarther), says in His commentary. that there is some verses on free will that even he doesn't understand or can answer, Paul is not saying that He must do these things because he don't know who the elect is but rather even the elect did to obtain salvation.
so how can one be predetermined but yet still need to obtain salvation, but rather By His foreknowledge He knew who would choose to be the elect. 1pe 1:2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
mahogany you make it sound like becoming a christian is like being assimilated into the Borg collective. (star trek reference)
so his will is always done in heaven, well usually, and no one can stand against the will of god, except sometimes? and he punished people in the old testament for not doing his will even though he would have already known that they werent going to do it? and christians are supposed to evangelize, even though its actually predetermined who will accept him and who wont?
so his will is always done in heaven, well usually, and no one can stand against the will of god, except sometimes? and he punished people in the old testament for not doing his will even though he would have already known that they werent going to do it? and christians are supposed to evangelize, even though its actually predetermined who will accept him and who wont?
lol thanks for the laugh.
Yes thats how i see it. Otherwise there'd be no reason to pray and ask God that His will be done, if it was always done anyway.
Yes because his people were moral agents with free-choice and God-given responsibility. Admittedly , the ability to do His will was difficult for them given they were unregenerated and mortal men - this was to show both to them ,and to us, how dependence upon God is vital and mortal human strength is useless. Then we come to the new testament where God promised to regenerate people hearts and cause them to obey Him by His Spirit. Do Christians always do God's will then? Well no, again because we are moral agents with free-choice, and sometimes make bad choices. But part of the reason it is Christians spreading God's message to the whole world, and not old testament Israelites - is because Christians are regenerated and changed to do God's will - which is that all men may be saved.
It is not predetermined who will accept and who won't. It is pre-known, as God exists outside of time and knows all things. Pre-determined implies God's forceable action to prevent or allow a person to know Him. If God applies any forceable actions, it must be so that the person can known Him and be saved, given that we know it is God's will for all to be saved. But as I said before, God's will is not always done due to human or spiritual (satan) opposing forces , and while it is hard to imagine how can humans prevents God's will , it happens all the time. This is where Muslims err in thinking God is the cause of everything which happens to them. While it is pre-known, it is not pre-determined. Rather, scripture puts the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of the person listening and obeying, coupled with any interaction they may have with the enemy satan - see the parable of the seed and the sower. In short, God's sovereignty implies His authority and capability to rule, but not an ability to control everyone and everything like mindless robots.
Yes thats how i see it. Otherwise there'd be no reason to pray and ask God that His will be done, if it was always done anyway.
Yes because his people were moral agents with free-choice and God-given responsibility. Admittedly , the ability to do His will was difficult for them given they were unregenerated and mortal men - this was to show both to them ,and to us, how dependence upon God is vital and mortal human strength is useless. Then we come to the new testament where God promised to regenerate people hearts and cause them to obey Him by His Spirit. Do Christians always do God's will then? Well no, again because we are moral agents with free-choice, and sometimes make bad choices. But part of the reason it is Christians spreading God's message to the whole world, and not old testament Israelites - is because Christians are regenerated and changed to do God's will - which is that all men may be saved.
It is not predetermined who will accept and who won't. It is pre-known, as God exists outside of time and knows all things. Pre-determined implies God's forceable action to prevent or allow a person to know Him. If God applies any forceable actions, it must be so that the person can known Him and be saved, given that we know it is God's will for all to be saved. But as I said before, God's will is not always done due to human or spiritual (satan) opposing forces , and while it is hard to imagine how can humans prevents God's will , it happens all the time. This is where Muslims err in thinking God is the cause of everything which happens to them. While it is pre-known, it is not pre-determined. Rather, scripture puts the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of the person listening and obeying, coupled with any interaction they may have with the enemy satan - see the parable of the seed and the sower. In short, God's sovereignty implies His authority and capability to rule, but not an ability to control everyone and everything like mindless robots.
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now that makes a bit of sense iwant2serve. wouldnt you like to yap about how theres somehow a difference in the words predetermined and preknown?
what a strange existence it must be for you mahogany.
always amusing to hear someone say someone elses religion is in err.
so say theres this person, who does nothing but the will of god, oh what a good christian you may say, but what is that person but a mindless robot?
what a strange existence it must be for you mahogany.
always amusing to hear someone say someone elses religion is in err.
so say theres this person, who does nothing but the will of god, oh what a good christian you may say, but what is that person but a mindless robot?
I have always believed that its in a way both. Our lives are more about how we live it. example, your stuck in traffic and a lousy driver cuts you off. Do you curse or forgive and bless. One produces fruit the other choice does not. My life is what It will be, but how I live it is my free will and my praise. God bless, pickles
On Predestination, from the writings of Bishop Elias Milatios. A comprehensive treatment of this doctrine.
Miles from the Truth: A Response to the Protestant magazine Credenda/Agenda, by Deacon [now Father] John Whiteford and Patrick Barnes.
St. John of Damascus on Predestination and Free Will: see Book II, Chapters XXV-XXX, and Book III, Chapters XIV and XVIII.
The UnReformed Truth: Orthodoxy Exonerated in the Light of the Apostolic Faith. A Response to the Calvinist journal Credenda/Agenda. Numerous articles critiquing Calvinism from an Orthodox perspective.
The Myth of the "Calvinist Patriarch", by Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna.
St. John Cassian on Grace and Free Will: his famous Conference XIII. St. John was a contemporary of St. Augustine in Gaul. Though living in the West he was in heart and mind a Father of the East. He was the first to respectfully object to certain of his contemporary's theological imprecisions concerning grace and free will. Conference XIII is a superb statement of the Orthodox doctrine of synergy (wrongly dubbed "semi-Pelagianism" by modern Western writers): God working with man to effect his salvation. One should also read two "books" in St. John's treatise Against the Nestorians which deal with the heresy of Pelagianism: Book I and Book V.
St. Gregory Palamas and the Tradition of the Fathers, by Fr. George Florovsky. This article demonstrates that the Holy Fathers have always taught that God's Will does not proceed from His Uncreated Essence but from His Uncreated Energies. They also condemn the Western notion of "created grace." This teaching has important ramifications for Reformed doctrines on free will.
Free Will and Death, an excerpt from The Mystery of Death, by Nikolaos P. Vassiliadis.
The Teaching on Predestination and the Veneration of the Saints, from the ROCOR Cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Washington, DC.
Dialogue on Free Will and Determinism, by Father John Whiteford
A Reply to Jonathan Edwards' Treatise on the Will, by Father John Whiteford
"Justification and Sanctification: A Conversation Between Lutheranism and Orthodoxy", by Ross [now Father Basil] Aden (St. Vladimir's Theological Quarterly, v.38, #1). I have asked Father Basil if I may post this article to my site. His answer is pending. In the meantime, I decided to put the bibliographic data here as this article has benefited many.
The links above are on Free Will vs Determinism or Predestination/Calvinism. The link below is on the Orthodox view on GRACE
CLICK FOR THE PDF ON GRACE
C
I can say in my experience, that God called and chose me to be Christian, there was nothing on my part that qualified me, I had no choice in the matter, God had simply appointed a time when He would reveal the truth about Himself to me, in my own eyes I was an unlikely and unworthy candidate, I can only marvel at the Lord's mercy that He would decide to rescue someone as ignorant and foolish and sinful as myself from everlasting darkness, my free will had been an illusion, God had already pre-planned in advance, God's gift of salvation was due to His free will not mine, I had as much to do with it as dead Lazarus being told to get up and live again, I was dead, does a dead man have free will?