Free will vs Predestination
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N
Ok, interesting perspective.
I don't disagree with your interpretation per se - that we should not give out of obligation, but from love.
I don't think a Reformed understanding of soteriology requires that everything be done from coercion or obligation to God. See my posting of Calvin's own comments above, or postings from the Canons of Dort a few pages back.
A will can simultaneously be limited and yet not coerced.
PS. Calvinists would strongly argue that all things (not just ministry) be done out of love and by no means out of obligation. Jonathan Edwards was very very very clear about that in Religious Affections. As a matter of fact, I'd like to say that God-honoring love is made possible only by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit - which every believer possesses regardless of their theological system.
I don't disagree with your interpretation per se - that we should not give out of obligation, but from love.
I don't think a Reformed understanding of soteriology requires that everything be done from coercion or obligation to God. See my posting of Calvin's own comments above, or postings from the Canons of Dort a few pages back.
A will can simultaneously be limited and yet not coerced.
PS. Calvinists would strongly argue that all things (not just ministry) be done out of love and by no means out of obligation. Jonathan Edwards was very very very clear about that in Religious Affections. As a matter of fact, I'd like to say that God-honoring love is made possible only by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit - which every believer possesses regardless of their theological system.
N
Gotcha.
Tough, tough issues, to be sure. irresistable grace was less of an issue for me, but l really struggled with limited for a long time. The idea of double punishment of sin sort of tipped the scales on that issue, though.
At least we're on the same page when it comes to depravity, though. Pelagianism is usually my real target, not classical arminianism (or weslyan). Thank you for being gracious. I need it and appreciate it.
I do have a question though. You said you weren't Arminian... Wesleyan? Seems you depart on irresistable grace and limited atonement which is where a lot of Wesley's argument goes. I'm just honestly curious.
That's the very idea behind compatiblism as I described before. All but the most rabid hyper-calvinists are compatbilists, believing that man has a will that is limited by his nature as a fallen, rebellious, dead creature and is limited by the nature of choice as dependent upon intentions, desire, and motive. see Ephesians 2:1-10 and Romans 8:5-9.
It's why in the Reformed system, total inability/depravity is the first in the progression. It shows a corrupted nature that prevents men from making universally arbitrary free choices - particularly pertaining to salvation. The nature of men must be chaged and that is where regeneration plays its part.
Tough, tough issues, to be sure. irresistable grace was less of an issue for me, but l really struggled with limited for a long time. The idea of double punishment of sin sort of tipped the scales on that issue, though.
At least we're on the same page when it comes to depravity, though. Pelagianism is usually my real target, not classical arminianism (or weslyan). Thank you for being gracious. I need it and appreciate it.
I do have a question though. You said you weren't Arminian... Wesleyan? Seems you depart on irresistable grace and limited atonement which is where a lot of Wesley's argument goes. I'm just honestly curious.
That's the very idea behind compatiblism as I described before. All but the most rabid hyper-calvinists are compatbilists, believing that man has a will that is limited by his nature as a fallen, rebellious, dead creature and is limited by the nature of choice as dependent upon intentions, desire, and motive. see Ephesians 2:1-10 and Romans 8:5-9.
It's why in the Reformed system, total inability/depravity is the first in the progression. It shows a corrupted nature that prevents men from making universally arbitrary free choices - particularly pertaining to salvation. The nature of men must be chaged and that is where regeneration plays its part.
C
I'm not sure that you would consider me Wesleyan as the holiness group would frown upon my beliefs, but that is the closest you could come. I am not an Arminian as I do not believe that sin causes a fall from grace. I do believe that it is possible to reject Christ after having been saved, but only rarely. I believe that Jesus death was for all mankind, and that the grace was extended to all for all to believe, but that grace is not irresistable, thus those who reject the free gift are ****ed.
W
I believe that predestination is a special call from God for chosen people. This might not be applicable to everyone because what i think is that God felt that in order for him too see if our heart is true to him is by giving us free will to choose what we wanted and to give us full freedom. Sad thing about this is that we can choose whether it's right or wrong but i think that God already got our back to help us distinguish what is bad and good like wisdom which i think we all have, it's just that we need to seek him first before we could open our eyes to the truth.
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D
You know, I am in agreement with the combatability of the two. I do think God predestined certain events, and certain people to create those events from happening. I also agree that men have free will to accept the grace of God.
I think overall, I deeply respect you for your strong opinions and your knowledge of the aforementioned subject. I think that despite our differences in opinions based on the subject, we are saved through the grace of God, and you are a good christian for it. I commend you for that, and I am glad you are here to give your insight on the subject. My thoughts are that despite our differences, we are still brothers in Christ. Not everyone worships the same, and not everyone agrees with exactly the same doctrine in terms of specifics, but the core beliefs are what matter the most. We agree on those, and so I am glad you are part of the body of Christ. You are someone to be respected based on your knowledge, and I will gladly say that I am strongly grateful to have you as my brother in Christ. Very few times have I seen someone with so much knowledge and strong respect for scripture and understanding it, and that makes me hold fast to the fact that you are indeed part of my family. Whether we disagree on free will/predestination, I can calmly and with a full heart say that you are strong with the Lord either way. I will be thankful to meet you one day when we are all with the Lord. Thank you for your teaching, because it has been a revelation to me, even if I disagree on certain aspects. Please don't think that I am trying to win (or prove you wrong) in all of this. It is just a difference of opinion based on our interpretation and belief system in scripture. The Lord makes us all different in psychological terms of how we perceive things, but we both perceive the way, the truth, and the light in the same respects. Thank you for your teaching on the subject. I can say that I understand Calvinists better now than I ever did before. That is a blessing in disguise, if only for the fact that I am very glad to learn more about every denomination. I consider myself non-denominational because I choose to believe in multiple ways of worship based on the individual, but I won't judge anyone for their beliefs if their core beliefs are the same as mine.
I think overall, I deeply respect you for your strong opinions and your knowledge of the aforementioned subject. I think that despite our differences in opinions based on the subject, we are saved through the grace of God, and you are a good christian for it. I commend you for that, and I am glad you are here to give your insight on the subject. My thoughts are that despite our differences, we are still brothers in Christ. Not everyone worships the same, and not everyone agrees with exactly the same doctrine in terms of specifics, but the core beliefs are what matter the most. We agree on those, and so I am glad you are part of the body of Christ. You are someone to be respected based on your knowledge, and I will gladly say that I am strongly grateful to have you as my brother in Christ. Very few times have I seen someone with so much knowledge and strong respect for scripture and understanding it, and that makes me hold fast to the fact that you are indeed part of my family. Whether we disagree on free will/predestination, I can calmly and with a full heart say that you are strong with the Lord either way. I will be thankful to meet you one day when we are all with the Lord. Thank you for your teaching, because it has been a revelation to me, even if I disagree on certain aspects. Please don't think that I am trying to win (or prove you wrong) in all of this. It is just a difference of opinion based on our interpretation and belief system in scripture. The Lord makes us all different in psychological terms of how we perceive things, but we both perceive the way, the truth, and the light in the same respects. Thank you for your teaching on the subject. I can say that I understand Calvinists better now than I ever did before. That is a blessing in disguise, if only for the fact that I am very glad to learn more about every denomination. I consider myself non-denominational because I choose to believe in multiple ways of worship based on the individual, but I won't judge anyone for their beliefs if their core beliefs are the same as mine.
N
You know, I am in agreement with the combatability of the two. I do think God predestined certain events, and certain people to create those events from happening. I also agree that men have free will to accept the grace of God.
I think overall, I deeply respect you for your strong opinions and your knowledge of the aforementioned subject. I think that despite our differences in opinions based on the subject, we are saved through the grace of God, and you are a good christian for it. I commend you for that, and I am glad you are here to give your insight on the subject. My thoughts are that despite our differences, we are still brothers in Christ. Not everyone worships the same, and not everyone agrees with exactly the same doctrine in terms of specifics, but the core beliefs are what matter the most. We agree on those, and so I am glad you are part of the body of Christ. You are someone to be respected based on your knowledge, and I will gladly say that I am strongly grateful to have you as my brother in Christ. Very few times have I seen someone with so much knowledge and strong respect for scripture and understanding it, and that makes me hold fast to the fact that you are indeed part of my family. Whether we disagree on free will/predestination, I can calmly and with a full heart say that you are strong with the Lord either way. I will be thankful to meet you one day when we are all with the Lord. Thank you for your teaching, because it has been a revelation to me, even if I disagree on certain aspects. Please don't think that I am trying to win (or prove you wrong) in all of this. It is just a difference of opinion based on our interpretation and belief system in scripture. The Lord makes us all different in psychological terms of how we perceive things, but we both perceive the way, the truth, and the light in the same respects. Thank you for your teaching on the subject. I can say that I understand Calvinists better now than I ever did before. That is a blessing in disguise, if only for the fact that I am very glad to learn more about every denomination. I consider myself non-denominational because I choose to believe in multiple ways of worship based on the individual, but I won't judge anyone for their beliefs if their core beliefs are the same as mine.
I think overall, I deeply respect you for your strong opinions and your knowledge of the aforementioned subject. I think that despite our differences in opinions based on the subject, we are saved through the grace of God, and you are a good christian for it. I commend you for that, and I am glad you are here to give your insight on the subject. My thoughts are that despite our differences, we are still brothers in Christ. Not everyone worships the same, and not everyone agrees with exactly the same doctrine in terms of specifics, but the core beliefs are what matter the most. We agree on those, and so I am glad you are part of the body of Christ. You are someone to be respected based on your knowledge, and I will gladly say that I am strongly grateful to have you as my brother in Christ. Very few times have I seen someone with so much knowledge and strong respect for scripture and understanding it, and that makes me hold fast to the fact that you are indeed part of my family. Whether we disagree on free will/predestination, I can calmly and with a full heart say that you are strong with the Lord either way. I will be thankful to meet you one day when we are all with the Lord. Thank you for your teaching, because it has been a revelation to me, even if I disagree on certain aspects. Please don't think that I am trying to win (or prove you wrong) in all of this. It is just a difference of opinion based on our interpretation and belief system in scripture. The Lord makes us all different in psychological terms of how we perceive things, but we both perceive the way, the truth, and the light in the same respects. Thank you for your teaching on the subject. I can say that I understand Calvinists better now than I ever did before. That is a blessing in disguise, if only for the fact that I am very glad to learn more about every denomination. I consider myself non-denominational because I choose to believe in multiple ways of worship based on the individual, but I won't judge anyone for their beliefs if their core beliefs are the same as mine.
For what it's worth, no one has to be of the Reformed perspective for me to consider them a Brother. I wasn't always here, either.
As for denominations - I happen to belong to one but am not particularly interested in the denominational structure outside of cooperating with other churches to fund missions both at home and abroad. The truth be told I will probably end up landing somewhere in the Acts 29 church planting network (google it if curious) which has less... baggage... than my current denomination.