Gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable???????????

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Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,487
508
113
#1
This verse......

Romans 11v29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Is being used in the wrong context to uphold certain doctrinal positions. It is being used as a promise of God that an INDIVDUAL cannot lose their gift of salvation once they believe (at some point in time) the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Notice two objects here: (1) Gifts and (2) Calling.

Now lets put two verses in the bible in opposition to the above (they are in reality not in opposition, but will be seen to be in opposition if you hold the above doctrinal worldview).

Matthew 22v14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
-There is a distinction between the called and the chosen. What happens to those who are not chosen (but were called)?

and the second opposing text

Hebrews 6v4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [c]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
- here we have those who have clearly tasted the gift, were enlightened, partook in the Holy Spirit (yes full on believers) but falling away to the point where repentance is no longer possible.

If you take Romans 11v29 to be true for individual election you have a serious problem explaining Hebrew 6v4 and Matthew 22v14. So then you come up with a myriad of way of twisting and contorting Matthew 22v14 and Hebrews 6v4 to force fit what you want (you want Romans 11v29 to be the true).

But the reality is this: Romans 11v29 is a CORPORATE ELECTION scripture and not an individual election scripture. Even Calvin admits to it. https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/gods-irrevocable-gifts-and-calling/

Lets look at the whole passage of Romans 11v29 in context:

Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
 
Oct 12, 2019
34
33
18
#2
I think the operative term in this argument is hermeneutical interpretation :geek:
 
I

IFOLLOWHIM

Guest
#3
How do some of these erroneous doctrines get so embedded in ppl that I believe truly want to love God?

How can they not just take what " thus sayeth the word of God" ?

I shake my head in amazement every time I go to a certain thread and see that doctrine being so vehemently defended!

True heart is shown every time they post in anger,derision,name calling and scoffing.


There is one in particular that likes playing the victim!

Do they really NOT KNOW what living for God and following Jesus is about?


Thank you Jesus that I have to work out my own salvation through fear and trembling and not man's doctrines,interpretations of theologies!
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
1,536
235
63
#4
This verse......

Romans 11v29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Is being used in the wrong context to uphold certain doctrinal positions. It is being used as a promise of God that an INDIVDUAL cannot lose their gift of salvation once they believe (at some point in time) the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Notice two objects here: (1) Gifts and (2) Calling.

Now lets put two verses in the bible in opposition to the above (they are in reality not in opposition, but will be seen to be in opposition if you hold the above doctrinal worldview).

Matthew 22v14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
-There is a distinction between the called and the chosen. What happens to those who are not chosen (but were called)?

and the second opposing text

Hebrews 6v4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [c]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
- here we have those who have clearly tasted the gift, were enlightened, partook in the Holy Spirit (yes full on believers) but falling away to the point where repentance is no longer possible.

If you take Romans 11v29 to be true for individual election you have a serious problem explaining Hebrew 6v4 and Matthew 22v14. So then you come up with a myriad of way of twisting and contorting Matthew 22v14 and Hebrews 6v4 to force fit what you want (you want Romans 11v29 to be the true).

But the reality is this: Romans 11v29 is a CORPORATE ELECTION scripture and not an individual election scripture. Even Calvin admits to it. https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/gods-irrevocable-gifts-and-calling/

Lets look at the whole passage of Romans 11v29 in context:

Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
Hebrews 6.. cant put Jesus back on the cross to renew repentance because He has already forgiven the saved person.

Also context is about animal sacrifice in Hebrews so cant go back to old system of sacrifices either
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,487
508
113
#5
Hebrews 6.. cant put Jesus back on the cross to renew repentance because He has already forgiven the saved person.

Also context is about animal sacrifice in Hebrews so cant go back to old system of sacrifices either
Wrong. Read verse 6 again.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
13,495
6,158
113
#6
Is being used in the wrong context to uphold certain doctrinal positions. It is being used as a promise of God that an INDIVDUAL cannot lose their gift of salvation once they believe (at some point in time) the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
So now we have another poster who would like to see people losing their salvation! With eleven question marks within the title? That should have been a baker's dozen!

Actually that verse can apply to BOTH the promises of God to Abraham and David under the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants, as well as the GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE and the GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT to those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

So now the question arises: Why are some so keen to see that people can lose their salvation? Is it not more than likely that this nonsense comes from Satan, who hates (1) God, (2) Christ, (3) Christians saved by grace, (4) the Gospel of the Grace of God, and (5) the Bible, which presents the true Gospel.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,487
508
113
#7
So now we have another poster who would like to see people losing their salvation! With eleven question marks within the title? That should have been a baker's dozen!

Actually that verse can apply to BOTH the promises of God to Abraham and David under the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants, as well as the GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE and the GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT to those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

So now the question arises: Why are some so keen to see that people can lose their salvation? Is it not more than likely that this nonsense comes from Satan, who hates (1) God, (2) Christ, (3) Christians saved by grace, (4) the Gospel of the Grace of God, and (5) the Bible, which presents the true Gospel.
You accuse me falsely.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,487
508
113
#8
So now we have another poster who would like to see people losing their salvation! With eleven question marks within the title? That should have been a baker's dozen!

Actually that verse can apply to BOTH the promises of God to Abraham and David under the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants, as well as the GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE and the GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT to those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

So now the question arises: Why are some so keen to see that people can lose their salvation? Is it not more than likely that this nonsense comes from Satan, who hates (1) God, (2) Christ, (3) Christians saved by grace, (4) the Gospel of the Grace of God, and (5) the Bible, which presents the true Gospel.
It is my experience here that when the scriptures can't be refuted, then the attacks become personal.
 
Jan 5, 2020
263
60
28
#9
This verse......

Romans 11v29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Is being used in the wrong context to uphold certain doctrinal positions. It is being used as a promise of God that an INDIVDUAL cannot lose their gift of salvation once they believe (at some point in time) the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Notice two objects here: (1) Gifts and (2) Calling.

Now lets put two verses in the bible in opposition to the above (they are in reality not in opposition, but will be seen to be in opposition if you hold the above doctrinal worldview).

Matthew 22v14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
-There is a distinction between the called and the chosen. What happens to those who are not chosen (but were called)?

and the second opposing text

Hebrews 6v4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [c]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
- here we have those who have clearly tasted the gift, were enlightened, partook in the Holy Spirit (yes full on believers) but falling away to the point where repentance is no longer possible.

If you take Romans 11v29 to be true for individual election you have a serious problem explaining Hebrew 6v4 and Matthew 22v14. So then you come up with a myriad of way of twisting and contorting Matthew 22v14 and Hebrews 6v4 to force fit what you want (you want Romans 11v29 to be the true).

But the reality is this: Romans 11v29 is a CORPORATE ELECTION scripture and not an individual election scripture. Even Calvin admits to it. https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/gods-irrevocable-gifts-and-calling/

Lets look at the whole passage of Romans 11v29 in context:

Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
irrevocable
is this a personal promise to a person or to a person who fits certain conditions? And if a calling is irrevocable to a person, how can that person know they are hearing correctly?

Mistaken callings happen all the time, delusions, convictions, beliefs that turn out to be deadly and wrong, "I can fly", "I am bullet proof", "I am healed" etc.

Israel were the people of God, yet a whole generation were rejected in the desert.
Prophets have been called and sent, and then struck dead in judgement.
Angels were made, and yet fell and are doomed to burn in torment.

Jesus cursed the fig tree, it died, yet was its lack of fruit its fault?
God called those too tend the vine yard, then told them they were rejected and the vineyard would be destroyed.
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
2,670
554
113
#10
The gifts and calling of God are without repentance on His part but many are called but few are chosen which means on the part of the person they failed, but God was working with them to get them to the truth but they were not chosen because they confessed Christ but did not receive the Spirit which they have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, from such turn away for they are hypocritical, and some that have received the Spirit but went back to holding unto sin.

It is a dangerous doctrine to believe a person cannot fall once they confess Christ for then many people will hold unto sin and believe they are saved because they have faith, but come short of obtaining salvation for they would not allow the Spirit to lead them to be like Christ.

Many are called but few are chosen, and why is God calling them but not choosing them, so it is obvious that not everyone that says Lord Lord shall be able to enter heaven, and the person failed at some point when God called them.

If people believe OSAS and they cannot fall then God would only work in the lives of those He chose so why is He calling people that cannot be chosen if it is already determined whether they are saved or not.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
1,536
235
63
#11
The gifts and calling of God are without repentance on His part but many are called but few are chosen which means on the part of the person they failed, but God was working with them to get them to the truth but they were not chosen because they confessed Christ but did not receive the Spirit which they have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, from such turn away for they are hypocritical, and some that have received the Spirit but went back to holding unto sin.

It is a dangerous doctrine to believe a person cannot fall once they confess Christ for then many people will hold unto sin and believe they are saved because they have faith, but come short of obtaining salvation for they would not allow the Spirit to lead them to be like Christ.

Many are called but few are chosen, and why is God calling them but not choosing them, so it is obvious that not everyone that says Lord Lord shall be able to enter heaven, and the person failed at some point when God called them.

If people believe OSAS and they cannot fall then God would only work in the lives of those He chose so why is He calling people that cannot be chosen if it is already determined whether they are saved or not.
I believe in OSAS but also that people can fall..

Not fall from eternal salvation but get caught up in the world.

Hebrews 6.. they aren't falling from salvation.. they are not going on to maturity. They are having to go back to be taught elementary principles. They have fallen from growth and the right teaching in Christ.. rather than actually lost eternal life.

These are Hebrew believers who, like Galatians.. need to leave their religious traditions and be renewed in Christ.
 
Jan 5, 2020
263
60
28
#12
Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

1 Cor 3:6
I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow

2 Cor 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Matt 22:14
"For many are invited, but few are chosen."

Phil 1:6
he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

God begins the work in us through His word planted in our hearts. He makes it grow to completion.
If it is all God alone who does everything in man, and nothing is down to the believer, why are there so many
imperfect, immature, carnal believers, fighting and confused, because then this is all Gods fault and He has failed
to defend His work in the heart of believers.
But Jesus puts our response and our recognition of Him on us and our lives.
He warns us we can die inside, the word can be smothered, and we can become hard hearted.

Heb 4:7
Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts

Rom 8:38-39
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,487
508
113
#13
I believe in OSAS but also that people can fall..

Not fall from eternal salvation but get caught up in the world.

Hebrews 6.. they aren't falling from salvation.. they are not going on to maturity. They are having to go back to be taught elementary principles. They have fallen from growth and the right teaching in Christ.. rather than actually lost eternal life.

These are Hebrew believers who, like Galatians.. need to leave their religious traditions and be renewed in Christ.
Read it carefully.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
5,427
846
113
#14
This verse......

Romans 11v29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Is being used in the wrong context to uphold certain doctrinal positions. It is being used as a promise of God that an INDIVDUAL cannot lose their gift of salvation once they believe (at some point in time) the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Notice two objects here: (1) Gifts and (2) Calling.

Now lets put two verses in the bible in opposition to the above (they are in reality not in opposition, but will be seen to be in opposition if you hold the above doctrinal worldview).

Matthew 22v14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
-There is a distinction between the called and the chosen. What happens to those who are not chosen (but were called)?

and the second opposing text

Hebrews 6v4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [c]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
- here we have those who have clearly tasted the gift, were enlightened, partook in the Holy Spirit (yes full on believers) but falling away to the point where repentance is no longer possible.

If you take Romans 11v29 to be true for individual election you have a serious problem explaining Hebrew 6v4 and Matthew 22v14. So then you come up with a myriad of way of twisting and contorting Matthew 22v14 and Hebrews 6v4 to force fit what you want (you want Romans 11v29 to be the true).

But the reality is this: Romans 11v29 is a CORPORATE ELECTION scripture and not an individual election scripture. Even Calvin admits to it. https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/gods-irrevocable-gifts-and-calling/

Lets look at the whole passage of Romans 11v29 in context:

Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
Many of God's elect are called to be his elect, but few of his elect are chosen to be revealed the truth of the doctrine of Jesus. Heb 6:4, This verse has reference to the church, not to our eternal destination. Once a preacher has been revealed the truths of the doctrine and has been given the gift to preach, and has been actively teaching it to the congregation, and for some reason, and in some instances he leaves the church to be hired by a false doctrinal congregation to preach their doctrine, being motivated by the love of money, because the elders (preachers) in Christ's church are paid by fairly modest donations. When they commit this sin, it is impossible for them to be renewed to Christ's church. He does not lose his eternal inheritance, which harmonizes with Matt 22:14.


Romans 11, has reference, not to the nation of Israel, but to Jacob/Israel (God's elect). God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel, Gen 33:28. All scriptures must harmonize, else you will never understand the truth of Jesus's doctrine.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,487
508
113
#15
Many of God's elect are called to be his elect, but few of his elect are chosen to be revealed the truth of the doctrine of Jesus. Heb 6:4, This verse has reference to the church, not to our eternal destination. Once a preacher has been revealed the truths of the doctrine and has been given the gift to preach, and has been actively teaching it to the congregation, and for some reason, and in some instances he leaves the church to be hired by a false doctrinal congregation to preach their doctrine, being motivated by the love of money, because the elders (preachers) in Christ's church are paid by fairly modest donations. When they commit this sin, it is impossible for them to be renewed to Christ's church. He does not lose his eternal inheritance, which harmonizes with Matt 22:14.


Romans 11, has reference, not to the nation of Israel, but to Jacob/Israel (God's elect). God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel, Gen 33:28. All scriptures must harmonize, else you will never understand the truth of Jesus's doctrine.
No comment.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,709
2,652
113
#16
This verse......

Romans 11v29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Is being used in the wrong context to uphold certain doctrinal positions. It is being used as a promise of God that an INDIVDUAL cannot lose their gift of salvation once they believe (at some point in time) the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Notice two objects here: (1) Gifts and (2) Calling.

Now lets put two verses in the bible in opposition to the above (they are in reality not in opposition, but will be seen to be in opposition if you hold the above doctrinal worldview).

Matthew 22v14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
-There is a distinction between the called and the chosen. What happens to those who are not chosen (but were called)?

and the second opposing text

Hebrews 6v4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [c]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
- here we have those who have clearly tasted the gift, were enlightened, partook in the Holy Spirit (yes full on believers) but falling away to the point where repentance is no longer possible.

If you take Romans 11v29 to be true for individual election you have a serious problem explaining Hebrew 6v4 and Matthew 22v14. So then you come up with a myriad of way of twisting and contorting Matthew 22v14 and Hebrews 6v4 to force fit what you want (you want Romans 11v29 to be the true).

But the reality is this: Romans 11v29 is a CORPORATE ELECTION scripture and not an individual election scripture. Even Calvin admits to it. https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/gods-irrevocable-gifts-and-calling/

Lets look at the whole passage of Romans 11v29 in context:

Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
Many are called and that call is not revoked or repented of.

Some are chosen. And those that are chosen are given the gift of Salvation. That gift is not revoked or repented of.


Any further questions?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
5,427
846
113
#17
Many are called and that call is not revoked or repented of.

Some are chosen. And those that are chosen are given the gift of Salvation. That gift is not revoked or repented of.


Any further questions?
Many elect are called and given eternal life. Few of the called elect are chosen to be revealed the truth of the doctrine of Jesus.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,709
2,652
113
#18
Many elect are called and given eternal life. Few of the called elect are chosen to be revealed the truth of the doctrine of Jesus.
I just thought of a different way to look at that statement.

I always thought that many are called and of these many few are chosen.

But now I realize the many that are called and the few that are chosen can be 2 entirely different groups.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,487
508
113
#19
I just thought of a different way to look at that statement.

I always thought that many are called and of these many few are chosen.

But now I realize the many that are called and the few that are chosen can be 2 entirely different groups.
Still doing violence to the scriptures.

Look at the word "BUT".

It doesn't say many are called AND few are chosen.

It says many are called BUT few are chosen.

Meaning, in plain English, that the two are related to one another.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
5,427
846
113
#20
Still doing violence to the scriptures.

Look at the word "BUT".

It doesn't say many are called AND few are chosen.

It says many are called BUT few are chosen.

Meaning, in plain English, that the two are related to one another.
Yes, I believe that they are related. The few that are chosen to be revealed the truth of Jesus's doctrine, are a part of all of those that have been called to be his elect.