Giving over our sense making ?

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throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#1
How much of our sense making do we give over to others ? This could come from Teachers , Pastors , theologians , Commentary, denominations, Churches , seminary ect . To the sacrifice of our own arrival at what the bible says ?
This is a thread about how we recognise our bias and presups .
Thought s , ?
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
1,689
327
83
#2
Yes, if people can learn how to take the bible in context and let it speak for itself, then it's clearer what God is teaching. Seminary, teachers, pastors etc.. can give you guidelines about how to read it in context. It takes a lot of discernment though to know what is false or not.

There are a couple of main presuppositions you can get from teachers-- 1 - before studying the bible they DONT believe it is the Word of God.

2-- before studying the bible they DO believe it is the Word of God.
 
Jun 11, 2020
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#3
How much of our sense making do we give over to others ? This could come from Teachers , Pastors , theologians , Commentary, denominations, Churches , seminary ect . To the sacrifice of our own arrival at what the bible says ?
This is a thread about how we recognise our bias and presups .
Thought s , ?
It is the nature of the beast. We have two disadvantages when we are converted to Christianity:
  1. We are usually already adults and have set opinions about certain things. When a man has held a notion for 15 or more years, it take brutal honesty to overthrow it. I was born again at age 27. I had been a practicing Roman Catholic until then. I had ideas that needed to be crucified. They did not go without a bitter internal struggle
  2. The modern Church in most localities is run on worldly principles. It is a business and the Pastor is more of a CEO than a shepherd. And usually his salary is dependent on "his" sheep. He cannot tolerate anybody asking questions. So the Church sets a line of doctrine and no questions are entertained. The average Christian today cannot even tell you about Baptism from the Word of God. Oh, he has a line, but it is the official line of that Pastor, or organization. Inquiring about touchy matters is frowned on. Speaking in the meeting is carefully controlled. Teachers are vetted to first ascertain which line the teach. Is it such a wonder that the average Christian can go twenty years without progressing in knowledge and revelation?
God has given teachers, but they are either ensconced in an elite Bible College, or they are forbidden to teach what they have been given the Talent for by an ambitious Pastor. True education is not hearing the right thing. True education is hearing ALL views and then being shown the right way. Paul is first a Pharisee and THEN is trained by the Lord. Peter is FIRST a Jew who never eats unclean things. But THEN he must visit the house of Cornelius - an unclean Gentile. I was first a Catholic, then 4 years in Pentecistalism before I nearly spiritually starved to death. Were those 31 years lost? No. I appreciate the many superb Christians I met in Pentecostal circles, but know the great holes in their teaching - first hand.

The average young man, fervent as they may be, is released from a Baptist Bible college to function after three to four years. But a man (or woman) needs more time than that. I gave my first message with shaking knees to six people after 11 years under training. I now shudder to think of my immaturity then. Here I am now years later, and will I shudder in ten years time? Most probably. The Christian needs;
  • TIME. In Ephesians 4 a man must keep the UNITY of the Holy Spirit (v.3) UNTIL they come to the UNITY of THE FAITH (v.13)
  • To hear different things and mull them, all the while knowing that he/she is totally dependent on the Holy Spirit
  • To be prepared to change his/her opinion - and that, many times
  • To be prepared to be faithful to the Words of God even if one doesn't understand them. Twisting of words, sentences and contexts to fit a preconceived idea is poison
  • To be prepared to disagree, even if it makes him/her unpopular. Many are the "popular" BUT erroneous doctrines
  • To take God's Words literally and accurately UNLESS a metaphorical or parabolic meaning is clearly indicated
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
5,567
867
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#4
It is the nature of the beast. We have two disadvantages when we are converted to Christianity:
  1. We are usually already adults and have set opinions about certain things. When a man has held a notion for 15 or more years, it take brutal honesty to overthrow it. I was born again at age 27. I had been a practicing Roman Catholic until then. I had ideas that needed to be crucified. They did not go without a bitter internal struggle
  2. The modern Church in most localities is run on worldly principles. It is a business and the Pastor is more of a CEO than a shepherd. And usually his salary is dependent on "his" sheep. He cannot tolerate anybody asking questions. So the Church sets a line of doctrine and no questions are entertained. The average Christian today cannot even tell you about Baptism from the Word of God. Oh, he has a line, but it is the official line of that Pastor, or organization. Inquiring about touchy matters is frowned on. Speaking in the meeting is carefully controlled. Teachers are vetted to first ascertain which line the teach. Is it such a wonder that the average Christian can go twenty years without progressing in knowledge and revelation?
God has given teachers, but they are either ensconced in an elite Bible College, or they are forbidden to teach what they have been given the Talent for by an ambitious Pastor. True education is not hearing the right thing. True education is hearing ALL views and then being shown the right way. Paul is first a Pharisee and THEN is trained by the Lord. Peter is FIRST a Jew who never eats unclean things. But THEN he must visit the house of Cornelius - an unclean Gentile. I was first a Catholic, then 4 years in Pentecistalism before I nearly spiritually starved to death. Were those 31 years lost? No. I appreciate the many superb Christians I met in Pentecostal circles, but know the great holes in their teaching - first hand.

The average young man, fervent as they may be, is released from a Baptist Bible college to function after three to four years. But a man (or woman) needs more time than that. I gave my first message with shaking knees to six people after 11 years under training. I now shudder to think of my immaturity then. Here I am now years later, and will I shudder in ten years time? Most probably. The Christian needs;
  • TIME. In Ephesians 4 a man must keep the UNITY of the Holy Spirit (v.3) UNTIL they come to the UNITY of THE FAITH (v.13)
  • To hear different things and mull them, all the while knowing that he/she is totally dependent on the Holy Spirit
  • To be prepared to change his/her opinion - and that, many times
  • To be prepared to be faithful to the Words of God even if one doesn't understand them. Twisting of words, sentences and contexts to fit a preconceived idea is poison
  • To be prepared to disagree, even if it makes him/her unpopular. Many are the "popular" BUT erroneous doctrines
  • To take God's Words literally and accurately UNLESS a metaphorical or parabolic meaning is clearly indicated
I believe that God calls men to preach, and most of the time, it is not because of their entelect. Bible schools tend to turn out preachers of false doctrines. I believe that all called out preachers are taught by the revelation of the Holy Spirit within them, the same way that the Apostle Paul was taught.
 
Jun 11, 2020
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#5
I believe that God calls men to preach, and most of the time, it is not because of their entelect. Bible schools tend to turn out preachers of false doctrines. I believe that all called out preachers are taught by the revelation of the Holy Spirit within them, the same way that the Apostle Paul was taught.
O.K. I can accept that, but why then did Christ give "Teachers" as one of the inspired Gifts (1st Cor.12:28-29, Eph.4:11, 1st Tim.2:7, 2nd Tim.1:11). And if no teachers are given, why does Christ warn us of "false teachers". The wording then would be, "beware of teachers" because it is not given to men to teach.

I think that you are nearly correct. The Teacher must "rightly cut the Words of God" (2nd Tim.2:15) and present it to the Church. But the final revelation comes from the Holy Spirit (Jn.14:26).
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
19,040
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#6
God-s teachers are learned of the Holy Spirit. He has no college or university in this age.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#7
How much of our sense making do we give over to others ? This could come from Teachers , Pastors , theologians , Commentary, denominations, Churches , seminary ect . To the sacrifice of our own arrival at what the bible says ?
This is a thread about how we recognise our bias and presups .
Thought s , ?
So you would have me to believe that babes in Christ need no discipleship? Why did Christ tell His Disciples to go into the world and teach others to be disciples?

It looks more like a thread to encourage folks to forsake the assembling of themselves together. We need one another to encourage us to live for Christ. We need to support one another in the love that Christ has imparted to us. Doctrinal errors will be sorted out by God and all we need to do is continue to test what we hear against what the scripture teaches. Bereans not those who hold the truth in self righteousness.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
1,590
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#8
So you would have me to believe that babes in Christ need no discipleship? Why did Christ tell His Disciples to go into the world and teach others to be disciples?

It looks more like a thread to encourage folks to forsake the assembling of themselves together. We need one another to encourage us to live for Christ. We need to support one another in the love that Christ has imparted to us. Doctrinal errors will be sorted out by God and all we need to do is continue to test what we hear against what the scripture teaches. Bereans not those who hold the truth in self righteousness.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
No you misunderstand . But we could be discipled badly . A lot of people start off in churches that they later find to be teaching false doctrines. They then have to undo all their ' discipleship.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
17,366
1,810
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#9
How much of our sense making do we give over to others ? This could come from Teachers , Pastors , theologians , Commentary, denominations, Churches , seminary ect . To the sacrifice of our own arrival at what the bible says ?
This is a thread about how we recognise our bias and presups .
Thought s , ?
Well the thing is no one person has all the answers we all perceive and understand differently but because of that if you have a learning spirit you can glean something even from a different view than your own.

The first step is to have the heart of a student after that we don't lean on our own understanding that is when the holy spirit speaks and teaches us truth but at the same time note I said lean because he does give us understanding but God desires a hungry heart not an idle one he desires a child who first hungers intensely after him and his love this is the first step for wisdom and understanding. For God it was never about what truth is for us from our perspective or from teachers or pastors or anyone else it was always about him it always about the hungry heart for him those who know that thirst

When you have this then in time you will be able to understand and discern truth from folly but many have a stilled hunger many have a sated thirst they seek the things OF God but not God himself
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
6,003
760
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Australia
#10
So you would have me to believe that babes in Christ need no discipleship? Why did Christ tell His Disciples to go into the world and teach others to be disciples?

It looks more like a thread to encourage folks to forsake the assembling of themselves together. We need one another to encourage us to live for Christ. We need to support one another in the love that Christ has imparted to us. Doctrinal errors will be sorted out by God and all we need to do is continue to test what we hear against what the scripture teaches. Bereans not those who hold the truth in self righteousness.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
It's not only a matter of doctrinal errors, it's also a matter of how we meet. I'm very much passed guided singing to God for 45mins, sit down, listen to a sermon, alter call, feigning communion and having small talk before ushering to our homes for the week. Yes, we have weekly small groups which is made to make up for what doesn't happen on a Sunday which then somewhat makes the Sunday service redundant because it is, and also has been what happens at the mid week small group truly communion of the saints.
I really hope this covid situation has caused the church to really rethink how we gather because at least for me, and a growing amount of people I know, it' can be shallow, dry experience.
People often can misinterpret what I'm saying as back sliding or as you mentioned 'forsaking the assembly' but it's quite the opposite. It's search for and desiring much deeper connections with people, real communion, not half a cracker and shot glass of juice...(that is not communion, it is a religious substitute) This usually can make people very uncomfortable because we are somewhat used to just scrapping the surface.
For those who are happy and content with the traditional (somewhat catholic) method of the saints gathering, I have no problem. I'm happy that they are happy and find it fulfiling.
But after many years, I'm not longer interested in feeling like I'm in a club.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
15,580
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#11
How much of our sense making do we give over to others ?
I'm not sure what you mean by "sense making", unless it means proper Bible interpretation. And it would appear that you have a long way to go. Looks like you have been indoctrinated into some false beliefs.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,891
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#12
How much of our sense making do we give over to others ? This could come from Teachers , Pastors , theologians , Commentary, denominations, Churches , seminary ect . To the sacrifice of our own arrival at what the bible says ?
This is a thread about how we recognise our bias and presups .
Thought s , ?
Two things that shout bias that come to my mind off the rib. One is inquisitor mode. When you see people getting worked up and obsessed about beliefs of others and wanting to control others' beliefs. This is typically a person who is just regurgitating what they learned, on every occasion, yet honestly believing that they are doing God a service with their "preaching". They never actually listen to anyone speaking with them, they don't talk with you, they talk at you. This person has bias because they are very afraid of questioning what they learned and think they will fall off if they do.

Another kind of bias, when people are constantly clinging to what their priests says or what other believers say, instead of pressing on with God directly (and people symptomatically do this on issues that usually only God knows about). This person is not comfortable with faith approach to God, they like having control and want other trustworthy people to tell them what to do in life, or whether they are certainly going to heaven, or such things. They might say prayers but never really directly ask God because that's not a comfortable experience for them, it's a lot easier to get instant answers from a learned person, or to think you have them. The source of this type of bias is giving up questioning because they trade it for the comfort of always having answers at hand. The first group is motivated by fear, another by comfort. Cant say I've never been either of the two. Both were a phase, to a degree, that I grew out of after some time and moved forward.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
12,549
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#13
How much of our sense making do we give over to others ? This could come from Teachers , Pastors , theologians , Commentary, denominations, Churches , seminary ect . To the sacrifice of our own arrival at what the bible says ?
This is a thread about how we recognise our bias and presups .
Thought s , ?
Ive always experienced teaching comes through reading the Bible, at my own pace. If I dont understand something, and I really want to know I ask God.

Not necessarily with bible commentaries or other people telling me what they think of it.
I regard teachers with respect though there are MANY teachers and they can only teach a very small portion of what the Bible contains.
Theologians can be too academic for me
Pastors often are those if I have a question, wont say well heres chapter and verse they are more likely to say I will pray with you.
denoms tend to emphasise different parts of the Bible to the exclusion of others
seminary Ive never been to but its only really for richer christians who can afford to go.
churches are just the body of christ gathering together, it wont necessarily be the same people all the time but they have family issues just like all families have. I have known elders that are very conversant with the Bible but then other elders have a very shallow Biblical knowledge. so elders arent always a reliable indicator of maturity.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#14
I'm not sure what you mean by "sense making", unless it means proper Bible interpretation. And it would appear that you have a long way to go. Looks like you have been indoctrinated into some false beliefs.
It means you have given your sense making over to others and instead of being able to articulate how you have personally arrived at biblical conclusions its evident that your parroting a ' respected ' theologian instead . Certain ' isms' are known for this ,as they will usually quote a confession / catechism / so called ' giant of the faith . I have bias and presups too and I'm constantly trying to recognise them and drop them ,when I study the bible . I realise that I have not arrived at an understanding because I know I have just trusted how another has told me is the answer to the matter . Some biblical truths such as the components of salvation can have conflicting answers from different theologians. So we need to be able to explain to someone else how we have personally arrived at our own conclusion. Good teachers can help . Bad teachers can confuse.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#15
No you misunderstand . But we could be discipled badly . A lot of people start off in churches that they later find to be teaching false doctrines. They then have to undo all their ' discipleship.
Still sounds like excuses for not doing what we are expected to do. We are to make disciples. We must teach sound doctrine and assemble where sound doctrine is taught.

God takes care of His children.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
1,590
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#16
Still sounds like excuses for not doing what we are expected to do. We are to make disciples. We must teach sound doctrine and assemble where sound doctrine is taught.

God takes care of His children.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
If we don't study the bible we are not going to disciple anyone .
 
L

lenna

Guest
#17
well apparently 'sense making' is a term best understood as the following:

Sense-making/sensemaking are terms commonly understood as the processes through which people interpret and give meaning to their experiences. The three different spelling variations (i.e., sense-making, sensemaking, sense making) are used deliberately by the authors included here, in different academic discourse communities that share some common thrusts. The terms originally focused on the five senses but have expanded in meaning to cover physical, emotional, spiritual, and intuitional responses posited as involved in human sense-makings of their worlds, both internal and external.
Since the 1970s, sense-making/sensemaking has been used by researchers from different disciplinary backgrounds, with significant applications in the fields of human-computer interaction (HCI), cognitive systems engineering, knowledge management, communication studies, and library/information science (human information behavior). At the highest level of abstraction, the differences in the underlying theories used by researchers can best be understood in tensions between cognitivist and constructivist strands and the focus on either a micro or macro framework. lots more here


I wouldn't make too much of it without a better understanding of the terms and the reason one cares to express them in an amateur fashion as an op to once again express personal viewpoints rather than proper Biblical understanding

but I am admittedly prejudiced that way
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,891
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#18
Again thinking of this thread while reading the Bible and stopping by.
Acts 20:30 Even from your own number, men will rise up and distort the truth to draw away disciples after them.

This is probably the No.1 issue. Many don't want to make the disciples for Christ, but for themselves. Because it feels good to the ego, to have a following or be right or praised. Look how big Facebook has gotten, which shows how prevalent that craving is in people.
Even when they preach the truth, many want the disciples for themselves. Giving themselves importance in their heart. Which is why they are not able to shake the dust off their sandals when others don't accept their teaching and gently leave, feeling the need to curse and grumble against others to elevate themselves when they are not accepted. We must never covet what is Christ's. The disciples are His and for nobody else to make. It's very important for a teacher or preacher, and also for any of us when sharing our beliefs, to be devoid of egotism.

1 Corinthians 3:4-5 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
 

49

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2015
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#19
Maybe God does not call the qualified, but rather qualifies the called....
 

stepbystep

Well-known member
Aug 31, 2020
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#20
How much of our sense making do we give over to others ? This could come from Teachers , Pastors , theologians , Commentary, denominations, Churches , seminary ect . To the sacrifice of our own arrival at what the bible says ?
This is a thread about how we recognise our bias and presups .
Thought s , ?
Interesting question. For me, I trust in the Holy Spirit for guidance and understanding. But, I also realize that the Holy Spirit sometimes works through others to direct/educate us, so I listen. If what a Pastor/Teacher says agrees with Scripture as I have come to believe it, and if it does not directly conflict with the Gospel of Jesus, then I am happy for their words.

Scripture says we are not to lean on our own understanding, but, I believe this is speaking of an understanding we reached without the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The understanding the Holy Spirit gives us is far more valuable than any understanding man can give.