God LIED!

[Macabeus]

If a person is a true believer, they will have certain qualities and will NOT HAVE others. The Bible is clear about this. From the first epistle of John alone, we read...



1 John 2: 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3: 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

1 John 3:6- Whoever abides in Him does not (practice) sin. Whoever (practices) sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

Note- Practice/practices added due to tense of verb.

1 John 3:9- 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

1 John 3: 14a We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren...

1 John 4: 7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

 

[JaumeJ]

I agree, but this raises an interesting point, or question.

That passage had always bothered me, because it sounds as if a judgment of works was being made for all humankind.
I know that's not the way it is supposed to work. And I agree with your response to the question about it. But...
what then is the purpose of this judgment of separating the sheep from the goats?
If all these folks are lost goats, how is it that some of them are saved sheep?

The parable of the Talents of Gold explain works quite well. The gold is the gift of faith entrusted to all in Jesus, and we are to take our faith and spread dthe news abroad making increse for our Master.

 

[Sketch]

The parable of the Talents of Gold explain works quite well. The gold is the gift of faith entrusted to all in Jesus, and we are to take our faith and spread dthe news abroad making increse for our Master.

That's another great example. Both appear to be in conflict with the vicarious atonement.

 

[Macabeus]

That's another great example. Both appear to be in conflict with the vicarious atonement.

No, they do not refute the vicarious atonement, the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus bore our punishment. What these parables are saying can be summed up with the verse 1 John 2: 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[Sketch]

No, they do not refute the vicarious atonement, the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus bore our punishment. What these parables are saying can be summed up with the verse 1 John 2: 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

If you are claiming that the phrase "his commandments" refers to the Ten Commandments, I disagree. The context does not support such an assertion. It also looks like you revised the words of the Bible to serve your own personal agenda. Why is "Him" and "His" capitalized? Isn't that a misquote?

 

[Jimbone]

No, they do not refute the vicarious atonement, the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus bore our punishment. What these parables are saying can be summed up with the verse 1 John 2: 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I agree and it's not a matter of grabbing a list of commandments and forcing yourself in fear to uphold them. This is what being reborn of the Spirit is all about, but we are told by Jesus, that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. When this happens the old us is crucified with Christ and we are made ALL NEW creatures. He changes our natures, the old man that could NOT please God is put to death and you are, by His grace, made all new, the "new man", if you will, now born of the Spirit and forever changed. I agree with the OP that Jesus with lose NONE the Father gives Him, I also agree that the "they" (whoever this "they is, "they" are never named) in the OP that save salvation is somehow maintained by works, well I agree that is dead wrong, I can't recall seeing anyone make that argument before honestly.

I do however run into people that can seem to understand the concept "works are evidence of my salvation", as in a result of the salvation given to me by His grace. Be cause I am a "whole NEW creature", the things I do in His name, the things I NEVER would have done before when I was the old man in the flesh, these things are works, and God gets ALL the glory for them because of this. For those of the Spirit this is crystal clear, but I am baffled by the resistance I have run into proclaiming this truth. A bunch of "work-a-phobics" I guess. Anyway I don't think I'm far off, here are a few verses to make my point.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Ephesians 4:24
and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

Colossians 3:10
and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him--

2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

1 John 5:4
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

Ephesians 2:14-16
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Ezekiel 11:19
"And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,

John 3:6
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

If we were made a whole new man in the Spirit of God, what was I before? Was the old man not put to death so I might be resurrected with Christ.

LOL, in short, I agree brother.

 

[JaumeJ]

I agree and it's not a matter of grabbing a list of commandments and forcing yourself in fear to uphold them. This is what being reborn of the Spirit is all about, but we are told by Jesus, that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. When this happens the old us is crucified with Christ and we are made ALL NEW creatures. He changes our natures, the old man that could NOT please God is put to death and you are, by His grace, made all new, the "new man", if you will, now born of the Spirit and forever changed. I agree with the OP that Jesus with lose NONE the Father gives Him, I also agree that the "they" (whoever this "they is, "they" are never named) in the OP that save salvation is somehow maintained by works, well I agree that is dead wrong, I can't recall seeing anyone make that argument before honestly.

I do however run into people that can seem to understand the concept "works are evidence of my salvation", as in a result of the salvation given to me by His grace. Be cause I am a "whole NEW creature", the things I do in His name, the things I NEVER would have done before when I was the old man in the flesh, these things are works, and God gets ALL the glory for them because of this. For those of the Spirit this is crystal clear, but I am baffled by the resistance I have run into proclaiming this truth. A bunch of "work-a-phobics" I guess. Anyway I don't think I'm far off, here are a few verses to make my point.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Ephesians 4:24
and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

Colossians 3:10
and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him--

2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

1 John 5:4
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

Ephesians 2:14-16
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Ezekiel 11:19
"And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,

John 3:6
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

If we were made a whole new man in the Spirit of God, what was I before? Was the old man not put to death so I might be resurrected with Christ.

LOL, in short, I agree brother.

I do not know for certain, but it looks as though a form of a lt or manner to be is provided here by you.

Allow me to condensesomewhat, actually not I, Jesus!

All the law hangs on Love..........if you happen to be reading the law and see any that do not, then do not. but if the law says to not steal your neighbor's land by moving the landmakrk to favor yourself, I think it is kjust fine to obey it. I do not need a law to know to do this, but some may need the reminder. I do know this law does show an aspect of love for if we love we do not steal from our neighbor.....

 

[Budman]

1 John 3:6- Whoever abides in Him does not (practice) sin. Whoever (practices) sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

Note- Practice/practices added due to tense of verb.

That's a poor excuse for adding to God's Word. That is not what it says. One could add any word(s) they want in that case.

Such as; "Whoever abides in Him does not (think) of sin. Whoever (thinks) of sins has neither seen Him nor known Him"

There's a reason why scripture says "does not sin" and "whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him".

The .....Two.....Natures.

 

[Sketch]

I agree and it's not a matter of grabbing a list of commandments and forcing yourself in fear to uphold them.

What do you make of this?

Romans 7:6
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Galatians 3:23-25
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

 

[JaumeJ]

The power of the law is, was, its curse from the which we are set free for teh curse of the law, death, was crucified on the cross with our Lord. We are no longer bound by the law, howeer just as we would obey our parents in this age, we do all we are able and given to obey the Father in heaven.

Anyone wanting to know what to obey probably already knows, but the Holy Spirit guides us in this obedience and in the study of how we are to obey according to Jesus Christ.

 

[Sketch]

The power of the law is, was, its curse from the which we are set free for teh curse of the law, death, was crucified on the cross with our Lord. We are no longer bound by the law, howeer just as we would obey our parents in this age, we do all we are able and given to obey the Father in heaven.

Anyone wanting to know what to obey probably already knows, but the Holy Spirit guides us in this obedience and in the study of how we are to obey according to Jesus Christ.

Right.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

 

[JaumeJ]

Paul writes in Romans the law is established by faith. I believe this is what you are making reference to. in Paul's other words. He also asks if the law then is evil, and he replied himself, "Heavens no."

The law is a lot more than what most people purport it to be, and a lot less than what Moses wrote down.
Yes! It is now on our hearts, but there are many written that come together to comprise love……….beginning with the two great laws of Love......

There is never any harm in learning the law according to Jesus Christ for we are saved only by mercy and being graced with faith. No man is sved by works but if any receive the Holy Spirit and then do nothing, and I include in nothing , nothing in heart, mind and soul, he just may lose that initial gife of faith, that gold of heaven, for the faith of the saints make up the street of gold in heaven………...

 

[Shemuel-Yerimiyahu]

That's a poor excuse for adding to God's Word. That is not what it says. One could add any word(s) they want in that case.

Such as; "Whoever abides in Him does not (think) of sin. Whoever (thinks) of sins has neither seen Him nor known Him"

There's a reason why scripture says "does not sin" and "whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him".

The .....Two.....Natures.

Budman, May I ask.... do you not sin? Are you pure and blameless? This is not an attack of arrows I am truly curious.

 

[Sketch]

Paul writes in Romans the law is established by faith. I believe this is what you are making reference to. in Paul's other words. He also asks if the law then is evil, and he replied himself, "Heavens no."

The law is a lot more than what most people purport it to be, and a lot less than what Moses wrote down.
Yes! It is now on our hearts, but there are many written that come together to comprise love……….beginning with the two great laws of Love......

There is never any harm in learning the law according to Jesus Christ for we are saved only by mercy and being graced with faith. No man is sved by works but if any receive the Holy Spirit and then do nothing, and I include in nothing , nothing in heart, mind and soul, he just may lose that initial gife of faith, that gold of heaven, for the faith of the saints make up the street of gold in heaven………...

It sounds like you are combing some references there.
I see a difference between "God's law" and "the law".
"God's law" is the law of human conscience that everyone has.
"The law" is the law that God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses.
Look at what the Apostle Paul says here. How many laws do you count here?

1 Corinthians 9:20-22
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.

 

[Budman]

Budman, May I ask.... do you not sin? Are you pure and blameless? This is not an attack of arrows I am truly curious.

Of course I sin. No question about it!

 

[Shemuel-Yerimiyahu]

Of course I sin. No question about it!

Thank you for he clarification,

If I may ask one more question out of curiosity What deems sin a sin?

 

[JaumeJ]

It sounds like you are combing some references there.
I see a difference between "God's law" and "the law".
"God's law" is the law of human conscience that everyone has.
"The law" is the law that God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses.
Look at what the Apostle Paul says here. How many laws do you count here?

1 Corinthians 9:20-22
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.

It seems you believe there is one truth for Jews and another for those who have come through their Gate, Jesus, Yeshua.
One must study the law, God's Word in part, in order to understand which are no more and those which comprise LVOE. God is love.

I caqnnot discuss this seriously if you have not learned from Jesus Chrsit the understanding of the law under grace. Hint, we do not die........and, the guilt of any sin is no longer seen, only Jesus Christ in us.

 

[dcontroversal]

There will certainly be false professors at this judgment. The ones Jesus spoke of who did "many wonderful works" in His name. The ones to whom Jesus will say "I never knew you".

A lot of those money obsessed televangelists come directly to mind. Those who make merchandise of God's people. Who claim to be "little gods" who love to say, "God told me to tell you, that if you donate "X" amount of money....."

I have always believed the "many" are lost because they have put their faith into a gospel of a different kind that has no power to save....Galatians makes it clear that faith plus works to finish salvation is a gospel of a different kind, has no power, those who teach it are double cursed and all who believe it are deceived and foolish....it is ALL Christ, his work, his power, his faith, his promises or it is not of God.....ANYTHING, any religion, any WAY that detracts from ALL glory to God is not of GOD........

 

[Sketch]

It seems you believe there is one truth for Jews and another for those who have come through their Gate, Jesus, Yeshua.
One must study the law, God's Word in part, in order to understand which are no more and those which comprise LVOE. God is love.

I caqnnot discuss this seriously if you have not learned from Jesus Chrsit the understanding of the law under grace. Hint, we do not die........and, the guilt of any sin is no longer seen, only Jesus Christ in us.

Nope. Ultimately only one truth. (Jesus Christ)
I agree that we do not die (possessing eternal life in the here and now) And that our is covered by the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

The Apostle Paul identified three different kinds of law in the scripture below. Obviously there are others.
Let's discuss these three for now.

1 Corinthians 9:20-22
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.

 

[Jimbone]

What do you make of this?

Romans 7:6
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Galatians 3:23-25
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Rom 7:6 is talking about how it's not us having to ourselves follow the letter of the law, now because we are born of the Spirit, God has changed our nature from the inside out to desire to follow the law. We are reborn in an instant and that only marks the start of our walk with Christ. This in no way at all contradicts what I said, in fact backs it up.

Gal 3:23-25
This is the exact same principle, the law was heavy and oppressive because we were only in the flesh, blind to the things of the Spirit, by Gods grace, through faith in the One that took Gods righteous wrath abiding on me so that I might be spiritual reborn frees me from that cell. Now reborn I willingly want to uphold His commandments. (again let me make very clear this is not sinless perfection as some think I'm talking about, just the start of our walk as the NEW MAN in Christ)