God LIED!

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Dec 12, 2013
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Lets not forget the passage which proves this

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

It is not us.. he perfected us forever, and he is sanctifying us in an ongoing wrk which is him acting on us
AMEN...........the devaluing of Christ, his work, his promises and his word make me want to spew..........many peddle a Jesus and a faith that is akin to a street organ player with a dancing monkey for coin in Calcutta......any and all that devalue salvation to something maintained by man absolutely sell JESUS out while stealing glory from God and enthroning self.....eternal means exactly that.....it does not mean temporal based upon performance........sickening......!!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
AMEN...........the devaluing of Christ, his work, his promises and his word make me want to spew..........many peddle a Jesus and a faith that is akin to a street organ player with a dancing monkey for coin in Calcutta......any and all that devalue salvation to something maintained by man absolutely sell JESUS out while stealing glory from God and enthroning self.....eternal means exactly that.....it does not mean temporal based upon performance........sickening......!!
Its sad, ut they are the ones who will reep their reward,

We can must proclaim the truth and pray that God will open their eyes before it is too late, but God will not force them against their will
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
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I trust His salvation to bring me home. I don't think it is a matter of thou shalt or thou shalt not as much as it is wanting to serve Him, as in bondservent. We don't have to, but we agree that what He wants for us is for His and our own good. We don't have to anything, we get to.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:3 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/1jn.5.3.NASB

His atonement made Jude 1:24-25 possible, not our doing.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I trust His salvation to bring me home. I don't think it is a matter of thou shalt or thou shalt not as much as it is wanting to serve Him, as in bondservent. We don't have to, but we agree that what He wants for us is for His and our own good. We don't have to anything, we get to.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:3 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/1jn.5.3.NASB

His atonement made Jude 1:24-25 possible, not our doing.
Amen, we love (the power to obey his commands) because he first loved us on the cross.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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Unless I misunderstood, you seem to be promoting the works of the law. Even calling those who don't agree "works-aphobics".
Still refuse to answer the question. What a joke.

Nope, please show me where I said anything like that. I bet you can't. See this is the problem, just because I proclaim the power of Jesus Christ to change me to do things I NEVER would have done for His glory, it's just some people are so scared of proclaiming His power in this world to actually CHANGE it, that they put this bull label on me when they can NEVER even quote me saying anything like this. It's just like people are so scared to proclaim Him King in everything that they throw a wet towel on the fire. NO, Jesus Christ has changed me to do these things and He gets the glory. Let's go no further. Please produce any comment from me where I promote works salvation. Produce it, admit you're wrong and apologize, or you're a liar. I am calling you out right now, or anyone else. but YOU especially, show me where I said this or you owe a child of God an apology, strait up.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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As I have said.....saved for not by works.....go read the works thread....you will see those which peddle that which we are discussing....
Yea that's what they say, but NEVER quote anyone actually saying it. I have looked.
 

Sketch

Well-known member
Nov 1, 2018
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Let's go no further. Please produce any comment from me where I promote works salvation. Produce it, admit you're wrong and apologize, or you're a liar. I am calling you out right now, or anyone else. but YOU especially, show me where I said this or you owe a child of God an apology, strait up.
That's pretty heavy-handed.
What became of the transformed person you were glowing about earlier?
Now you want an apology, or I'm a liar? (maybe you should apologize instead)
Calling me out? Seriously? Get over yourself. Like you said, "Let's go no further."

Here's what I actually said:
"Unless I misunderstood, you seem to be promoting the works of the law. Even calling those who don't agree "works-aphobics". "
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Yea that's what they say, but NEVER quote anyone actually saying it. I have looked.
I have seen it numerous times and anyone that states they have to maintain salvation by works and or can lose it by default teaches a works based salvation....
 
Dec 27, 2018
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I see another fallacy from one who believes salvation can be lost by walking away from faith or losing faith.....you guys must serve a very weak god not found in scripture....

My bible teaches the following...

Jesus BEGINS the work of faith in us
Jesus FINISHES the work of faith in US
JESUS COMPLETES the work of faith in US

Those who peddle this losable faith that causes the loss of salvation FLAT DENY the truth found in the above........IF you can lose faith and then lose salvation you never had faith and or were saved to begin with.........
I agree with all of this. But my God is strong in that He also SANCTIFIES.

I do not argue OSAS vs NOSAS, because if you love the Lord, you will keep His commandments as He keeps you

Kept by the power of God through faith
 
Dec 12, 2013
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I agree with all of this. But my God is strong in that He also SANCTIFIES.

I do not argue OSAS vs NOSAS, because if you love the Lord, you will keep His commandments as He keeps you

Kept by the power of God through faith
Yep and sanctification is dual in usage and application.....one is positionally and eternally in Christ, the other has to do with our daily transformation and walk which is subject to successes and or failure.......
 
Dec 27, 2018
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Yep and sanctification is dual in usage and application.....one is positionally and eternally in Christ, the other has to do with our daily transformation and walk which is subject to successes and or failure.......
exactly what I said earlier. And both aspects of sanctification are for every believer. So what is this doctrine that says that a person can be saved and not experience transformation? I don't see such a salvation in my bible.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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Quote from O.P- Or, they'll say, if you don't live and act in a Christian "manner" it proves you were never saved at all.

This is the part from the O.P that I am focusing on (not the OSAS question). Budman takes issue with the idea that if a person is truly saved, it will manifest in his life. Or in other words, if you do not live and act in a Christian manner, you were never saved. I would say and agree with John, that if "if we say that we know Him, and do not keep His commandments, we lie and the truth is not in us. (1 John 2:4)" Does this mean we are sinless? No. "For if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8) So we have now avoided two extreme doctrines that are both incorrect.

a. One extreme and incorrect doctrine says "it doesnt matter how we live as long as we at some point in our lives get our tickets punched" Now I'm not talking about "retaining salvation". I do not keep myself, I am kept by the power of God. (1 Peter 1:5)But if our lives bear no fruit, and if we are not growing, we need to take inventory, because every good tree bears fruit and every good tree grows. It's not a matter of what we are doing, it is a matter of what GOD SAID HE WOULD DO IN US. (Philippians 1:6)

b. The other extreme is the extreme of the deceived person who thinks they are sinless, or thinks that their works are meritorious towards salvation, (not of works, lest any man should boast), or thinks that they keep themselves by their own willpower. We are not saved or kept by our will power. We are saved AND kept by the grace and power of God through faith. (1 Peter 1:5)

We all as human beings struggle with avoiding extremes.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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Its sad, ut they are the ones who will reep their reward,

We can must proclaim the truth and pray that God will open their eyes before it is too late, but God will not force them against their will
Well, I hope God opened John the apostle's eyes before it was too late, for it was he who said "if we say that we know Him and do not keep His commandments, we lie and the truth is not in us.

That's pretty heavy-handed.
What became of the transformed person you were glowing about earlier?
Read what he is replying to. He is replying to a false accusation of "works of the Law salvation".

It is not us.. he perfected us forever, and he is sanctifying us in an ongoing wrk which is him acting on us
OF COURSE. But if you ARE BEING SANCTIFIED IN HIM, it will MANIFEST in your life. If it is not, then you need to take inventory. What did Paul mean when he said EXAMINE YOURSELVES? How do we examine ourselves if there is nothing to examine except a one time momentary decision, as Budman once described it?

I think some of us are being accused of arguing for a "works salvation" when in fact what we are arguing against is mere decisional regeneration and easy believism. I do not believe we are saved by a momentary decision we make or an intellectual assent to the gospel. We are saved by a mighty work of God called the New Birth, which makes us new creatures in Christ. Decisions and intellectual assent may only make us nominal christians.

And what did John mean when he said "by this we know?" several times? Know what?

1 John 2:3-And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 3:14- We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not hisbrother abideth in death.

1 John 3:19- And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

I am not arguing against saved by grace through faith, I am not arguing against justified through faith alone, and I am not arguing for or against OSAS. I am arguing against MERE DECISIONAL SALVATION and EASY BELIEVISM.

Paul and James did not contradict each other on the relationship of faith and works. Paul was refuting LEGALISTS. James was refuting the opposite extreme. And John was refuting the same basic error (but of a different strain) that James was in his epistles.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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exactly what I said earlier. And both aspects of sanctification are for every believer. So what is this doctrine that says that a person can be saved and not experience transformation? I don't see such a salvation in my bible.
The ones that state the transformation is based upon the study and application of the word.....the ones which state a believer can fail to go on to perfection (maturity) .....the ones which state believers are to move beyond the milk of the word that they may grow and mature.....the ones which state our lives can be weighed down with surfeiting...the ones which state some have works of wood, hay and stubble burnt to a crisp with nothing to show, yet saved so as by fire.....and on and on and on
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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That's pretty heavy-handed.
What became of the transformed person you were glowing about earlier?
Now you want an apology, or I'm a liar? (maybe you should apologize instead)
Calling me out? Seriously? Get over yourself. Like you said, "Let's go no further."

Here's what I actually said:
"Unless I misunderstood, you seem to be promoting the works of the law. Even calling those who don't agree "works-aphobics". "
You're right, I thought about this a lot last night and I should apologize. I could have come at it a lot more collected and found myself doing the same thing I was accusing others of and I do apologize. I truly don't want to be divisive, so I sincerely apologize.

That said, I just take this very seriously, it is literally life and death, and I couldn't be more clearly against works for, to get, to maintain, or anything to pay for salvation. It is a free gift by His grace and ONLY through His Son Jesus the Christ. We cannot give the Creator of everything anything, period, point blank, take it to the bank. I proclaim boldly and loudly that it is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

With that said, and all due respect and a better tone, I see you had to kind of back peddle on what you said and get "offended" and still kind of bail out. You can't produce anything I said as "works based salvation", at all brother because I do not believe that. I'm not even taking about salvation. I'm moving to the next chapter, what happens after I'm saved, see. Also worth noting that you either will not, or can not answer a single question I ask, not one, why?

You did misunderstand me though, and honestly by saying "Unless I misunderstood, you seem to be promoting the works of the law. Even calling those who don't agree "works-aphobics". were you not in fact "calling me out"? Admittedly not as over aggressively, and thank you for that, but I am so serious about this, can you understand even a little? I am not "promoting the works of the law", I am promoting "the power of Jesus to change men", see the difference? You very much did misunderstand me, and honestly I don't know how and that's why I "demanded" a quote to back up your "unless". If you go back and read what I wrote you can see where I very clearly state this, what I will talk about, and that seems to offend so many, is what happens AFTER we are saved. I now do things I would have never done before I was reborn. I know it's different for each individual, but you have to understand for me it was an overnight complete transformation. Here's the quote-
I agree and it's (salvation) not a matter of grabbing a list of commandments and forcing yourself in fear to uphold them. This is what being reborn of the Spirit is all about, but we are told by Jesus, that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. When this happens the old us is crucified with Christ and we are made ALL NEW creatures. He changes our natures, the old man that could NOT please God is put to death and you are, by His grace, made all new, the "new man", if you will, now born of the Spirit and forever changed. I agree with the OP that Jesus with lose NONE the Father gives Him, I also agree that the "they" (whoever this "they is, "they" are never named) in the OP that save salvation is somehow maintained by works, well I agree that is dead wrong, I can't recall seeing anyone make that argument before honestly.

I do however run into people that can seem to understand the concept "works are evidence of my salvation", as in a result of the salvation given to me by His grace. Be cause I am a "whole NEW creature", the things I do in His name, the things I NEVER would have done before when I was the old man in the flesh, these things are works, and God gets ALL the glory for them because of this. For those of the Spirit this is crystal clear, but I am baffled by the resistance I have run into proclaiming this truth. A bunch of "work-a-phobics" I guess. Anyway I don't think I'm far off, here are a few verses to make my point.
I said "work-a-phobics" to describe those who take what I said here, that BY GRACE God changes us, and I am made new, so the "new" things I now do differently, I do because God changed me, He get the glory, and I get to glorify Him. The "work-a-phobics" thing is when someone takes this and just because I proclaim I now do things for the Lord as a result of salvation, that, unless they misunderstood, "seem to be promoting the works of the law".

I wasn't raised in the church, nor was this taught to me by men, in fact I went to church later in life, repeated the prayer, was dunked under water and declared "saved", and was not saved. God granted me repentance and I woke up a new man, in a radical way overnight, and I will proclaim it as He commanded me to. So when anyone is "unless I misunderstooding" me in a way that is a flat out heresy, and 180* opposite of what I am clearly trying to say in this way, I got over emotional and passionate and text being the worst place to do that, I acted wrong and not in a loving uniting way at all, and I'm actually ashamed of that. I am truly sorry, and you're right. I hope this helps explain my position, and more than that help you see that I do want to come together, recognize I was not doing that yesterday.
 

Sketch

Well-known member
Nov 1, 2018
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You're right, I thought about this a lot last night and I should apologize. I could have come at it a lot more collected and found myself doing the same thing I was accusing others of and I do apologize. I truly don't want to be divisive, so I sincerely apologize.
Apology accepted.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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Yep and sanctification is dual in usage and application.....one is positionally and eternally in Christ, the other has to do with our daily transformation and walk which is subject to successes and or failure.......
Fair enough, and yesterday I was coming wording everything very harshly, and I just wanted you to know that I hope I wasn't overly aggressive with you, because I already love you brother, and I understand what your talking about here. It's just I truly think that both sides of this have a false picture of what the other believes, but honestly I don't think many believe that strait up "works save", just like I don't believe anyone is rely saying "I got my Jesus "get out of hell free" ticket punched, lets go sin till the end", you know what I mean. We start talking past each other and to a small degree I feel I did that to you yesterday too. I just wanted to tell you, I'm sorry about that man. From what you can learn about someone in a chat site, you're a solid guy, a brother, and I'm honestly glad I had/have a chance to get to know you a little bit. Have a good day man.
 

Sketch

Well-known member
Nov 1, 2018
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I wasn't raised in the church, nor was this taught to me by men, in fact I went to church later in life, repeated the prayer, was dunked under water and declared "saved", and was not saved. God granted me repentance and I woke up a new man, in a radical way overnight, and I will proclaim it as He commanded me to. So when anyone is "unless I misunderstooding" me in a way that is a flat out heresy, and 180* opposite of what I am clearly trying to say in this way, I got over emotional and passionate and text being the worst place to do that, I acted wrong and not in a loving uniting way at all, and I'm actually ashamed of that. I am truly sorry, and you're right. I hope this helps explain my position, and more than that help you see that I do want to come together, recognize I was not doing that yesterday.
This was the sentence from your original post that put me off in the wrong direction.
"I agree and it's (salvation) not a matter of grabbing a list of commandments and forcing yourself in fear to uphold them."

I had just challenged someone about the scripture they had quoted being a reference to the Ten Commandments, which it is not. You seemed to be in agreement with that. (seemed) And I handled it poorly as well. I can apologize for that part. I was quoting scriptures and not answering questions. (which you found infuriating, because it was) I think I was trying to avoid a lengthy argument about the law. Anyway... not to justify myself... bad is bad. Period.
 

louis

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2017
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Well, I hope God opened John the apostle's eyes before it was too late, for it was he who said "if we say that we know Him and do not keep His commandments, we lie and the truth is not in us.



Read what he is replying to. He is replying to a false accusation of "works of the Law salvation".



OF COURSE. But if you ARE BEING SANCTIFIED IN HIM, it will MANIFEST in your life. If it is not, then you need to take inventory. What did Paul mean when he said EXAMINE YOURSELVES? How do we examine ourselves if there is nothing to examine except a one time momentary decision, as Budman once described it?

I think some of us are being accused of arguing for a "works salvation" when in fact what we are arguing against is mere decisional regeneration and easy believism. I do not believe we are saved by a momentary decision we make or an intellectual assent to the gospel. We are saved by a mighty work of God called the New Birth, which makes us new creatures in Christ. Decisions and intellectual assent may only make us nominal christians.

And what did John mean when he said "by this we know?" several times? Know what?

1 John 2:3-And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 3:14- We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not hisbrother abideth in death.

1 John 3:19- And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

I am not arguing against saved by grace through faith, I am not arguing against justified through faith alone, and I am not arguing for or against OSAS. I am arguing against MERE DECISIONAL SALVATION and EASY BELIEVISM.

Paul and James did not contradict each other on the relationship of faith and works. Paul was refuting LEGALISTS. James was refuting the opposite extreme. And John was refuting the same basic error (but of a different strain) that James was in his epistles.
I like the way you reason.

We are saved by grace, which is Gods mercy on us who through our faith (believing in Christs Way of love, truth, justice, humility) are ultimately saved, overcoming the world and its passions.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: