"God loves everyone" - false

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awelight

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My comments were clearly addressing only one part of Romans:

(Rom 5:8) But God commends his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Within the context, we must ask:

1) To whom was Paul writing? No to all mankind but to believers. In this case, the Saints who were in Rome. (Do you deny that he was writing to believers in Rome? Rom 1:7 to all that are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. )
2) Then the "us" are the believers in Rome. The message then has applications to all other believers, in all the various assemblies. (This truth still stands)
3) The "we" are the same people as are the "us". (This truth still stands)
4) You cannot apply this to all of humanity, since all of humanity was not being written to, in this particular context. There are many verses of Scripture that are to all mankind but this is not one of them. (This truth still stands)

If you do not understand hermenuetics and do not keep verses within intended contexts, you cannot truly understand the message.
I say this with all humility, in the hopes of being helpful, to those who truly wish to learn. No man has arrived, when it comes to knowledge and we should all strive to be ever learning.

I do appreciate your responding and giving your explanations to the following: Romans 9:13 and Jeremiah 49:10.

I do not disagree with some of the points you were making, However, you are really going out of your way to deny that God has a Holy Hatred. His hatred is indeed not like ours, it is a perfect hatred. We as mortal, sinful, beings, cannot hope to understand what Holy anger, hatred and vengeance really are. We do good to even scratch the surface of what Holiness really is. However, you cannot say that God did these things because He loved them. This eliminates any distinction between His outpouring of emotions for the saved and the unsaved. Yes He has done to the enemies what His Holy Justice requires but you cannot say that He loves those whom He intends to destroy. This would make God conflicted.

You summarized by saying:

Overall
God being just, does not mean He does not have love. (I never claimed He didn't.... So where did you get this?)
The punishment of the wicked by Him is not a sign that He hates them
. (Oh, so now you would have God killing and punishing those He loves?) There is a consequence for every action. For whatever a man sows, that he will also reap (Galatians 6:7) Agree, that man will reap what he sows. God's Holy Justice must be satisfied.

Then you said I should not use the precept that God hates. Why would I repent for a term, that God Himself has used. The word hate is used in Scripture, King James Version, 87 times, in 85 verses, either by God or by man. The word hated is used 60 times in 56 verses, either by God or man.
An addendum to this post for further clarification.

I don't want anyone to think I am saying God hates as we hate. God saying that He hates, must be understood within the harmony of all His Holy Attributes. John Gill expressed God hating Esau, as a form of "neglect". Therefore, God only does positive things for those He loves and neglects those He hates. It has been expressed by many other writers in various ways. But it still stands, that the Scriptures say that God hated. I do not fill qualified to express in what way this is to be understood. John Gill believed it to mean that whom God hated, He passed by. This shows that John Gill believed in "elective grace". Therefore, Gill was equating hate to all of the non-elect of God. Hate is a strong word. God used it in the Old and New Testaments. This cannot be denied but let every person who witnesses, be cautious of how it is discussed.

However, if John Gill's explanation is correct, then God's love or hate is tied to elective grace, the Eternal Convenient of Redemption".

Following this thought, a question needs to be raised. If indeed God loves everyone, then why did He only elect some to salvation and pass by others? The ones on the "loves everybody side", like to throw around John 3:16.... as if it single-handedly answers all questions of Soteriology, while ignoring passages that seem to teach otherwise.

Again I will ask, If Election is not the Truth, then give an interpretation to these verses?

John 6:37) All that the Father gives to me shall come to me; and him that is coming to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise
it at the last day,
John 6:44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

We all await an enlightened answer.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
An addendum to this post for further clarification.

I don't want anyone to think I am saying God hates as we hate. God saying that He hates, must be understood within the harmony of all His Holy Attributes. John Gill expressed God hating Esau, as a form of "neglect". Therefore, God only does positive things for those He loves and neglects those He hates. It has been expressed by many other writers in various ways. But it still stands, that the Scriptures say that God hated. I do not fill qualified to express in what way this is to be understood. John Gill believed it to mean that whom God hated, He passed by. This shows that John Gill believed in "elective grace". Therefore, Gill was equating hate to all of the non-elect of God. Hate is a strong word. God used it in the Old and New Testaments. This cannot be denied but let every person who witnesses, be cautious of how it is discussed.

However, if John Gill's explanation is correct, then God's love or hate is tied to elective grace, the Eternal Convenient of Redemption".

Following this thought, a question needs to be raised. If indeed God loves everyone, then why did He only elect some to salvation and pass by others? The ones on the "loves everybody side", like to throw around John 3:16.... as if it single-handedly answers all questions of Soteriology, while ignoring passages that seem to teach otherwise.

Again I will ask, If Election is not the Truth, then give an interpretation to these verses?

John 6:37) All that the Father gives to me shall come to me; and him that is coming to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise
it at the last day,
John 6:44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

We all await an enlightened answer.

Did Jesus love the rich young ruler who was a sinner?
 

awelight

Active member
Aug 10, 2020
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God did know, by his foreknowledge, and saw that none of mankind would seek him. Psalms 53:2-3.
While I agree with what you are saying, I have a few points I would like to make about the word "foreknowledge". The foreknowledge being referenced here is from Rom 8:28-30, which says:

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom He did foreknow, (completed action in the past), He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.

The word here translated foreknow is a compound Greek word προεγνω, it means "to have knowledge of", prefixed with "beforehand" but this Greek word for knowledge, goes way beyond the idea of simply knowing something beforehand. It is more closely related to the Hebrew word for "intimate knowledge". Such as is used in, "Adam knew his wife." Therefore, the thrust of it's meaning is this: To have an intimate knowledge of one beforehand. Or put another way, to have had an intimate relationship with the elect, before the world was.

Note also, all verb tenses are past tense for: predestinate, called, justified and glorified. From God's eternal decree, these things have already happened.

Hope that gives reason to rejoice.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,891
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An addendum to this post for further clarification.

I don't want anyone to think I am saying God hates as we hate. God saying that He hates, must be understood within the harmony of all His Holy Attributes. John Gill expressed God hating Esau, as a form of "neglect". Therefore, God only does positive things for those He loves and neglects those He hates. It has been expressed by many other writers in various ways. But it still stands, that the Scriptures say that God hated. I do not fill qualified to express in what way this is to be understood. John Gill believed it to mean that whom God hated, He passed by. This shows that John Gill believed in "elective grace". Therefore, Gill was equating hate to all of the non-elect of God. Hate is a strong word. God used it in the Old and New Testaments. This cannot be denied but let every person who witnesses, be cautious of how it is discussed.

However, if John Gill's explanation is correct, then God's love or hate is tied to elective grace, the Eternal Convenient of Redemption".

Following this thought, a question needs to be raised. If indeed God loves everyone, then why did He only elect some to salvation and pass by others? The ones on the "loves everybody side", like to throw around John 3:16.... as if it single-handedly answers all questions of Soteriology, while ignoring passages that seem to teach otherwise.

Again I will ask, If Election is not the Truth, then give an interpretation to these verses?

John 6:37) All that the Father gives to me shall come to me; and him that is coming to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise
it at the last day,
John 6:44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

We all await an enlightened answer.
I do agree with you that God's ways aren't our ways. I don't agree with how exactly you define God, I quote, "hating" people.
God's "hatred" seems more as God says here: "I will spit you out of my mouth"...
God does love everyone, and He's merciful to our weaknesses.
He just can't abide with deliberate sin and unwholesome heart, it repulses Him.
What you call "neglect", I think you're onto something, but I would like to remind of the Scripture that God rains and shines sun on both the evil and the good, which is why that hypothesis doesn't stand.
Then Jesus calls us to be "perfect like our Father in Heaven" who loves both "good" and "bad" people, and not like tax collectors and the ungodly who only love some people. If God did as you described and only loved the elect, that would be hypocrisy.
I would rather use Biblical term "hardening of heart" here.
When a person ignores or disobeys God, they spiritually deteriorate into more sin and heart gets even harder.
And God speaks to them less and less, because they won't listen anyway!
Even Christians are warned to be careful not to stumble in this and quench the Spirit.

Election is explained with God's foreknowledge.
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge...

So with that perspective, how does God's ability to predict the future (because He knows us so well) deny the fact that we make choices? If we deny ability to choose, even though God's grace is prerequisite for salvation, we can't run off into the left field with it. Verses such as "choose ye this day whom ye will serve" then lose every meaning.
Please let's not pit Scripture against Scripture here.

As to you saying about foreknowledge that it marks intimate relationship with God,
I've got one question.
Does eternal life extend only into the future?
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
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First and foremost God is Love and not only that he has the ability to perform it .but is the very essence of His Spirit. God's name is jealous . He alone owns all things. His love is not jealous.

God loved the world by sharing himself with mankind. He did not have a warm a fuzzy feeling but suffered a demonstrated of his love .

He "hates". Another way of saying he does not do the work of blessing love. He hastes the sin and the sinner. (Psalm 5:5 )

Love or God who works in us as to its first work is to be patient longsuffering .If not patient it does not build to next labor of his love. Patient love is kind . The Patient and kind Love does not envy . . no need to boast and it follows through performing all its works as His perfect love.

Only God can love perfectly .We all fail in one attribute or another .Perfect love cast our out all fear. Fear has to do with punishments' .He drank the cup of wrath , We can rest in His love.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
16,142
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So with that perspective, how does God's ability to predict the future (because He knows us so well) deny the fact that we make choices?
Exactly. But this is the great stumbling block for Determinists. They believe that because God has perfect divine foreknowledge, He has predetermined all human choices. But that is total nonsense. It would essentially make God a sinner.

There are consequences to all human choices, either good or bad. That is a part of the Law of Sowing and Reaping, which is a universal law. It applies in the natural realm as well as in the spiritual realm.
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
742
302
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First and foremost God is Love and not only that he has the ability to perform it .but is the very essence of His Spirit. God's name is jealous . He alone owns all things. His love is not jealous.

God loved the world by sharing himself with mankind. He did not have a warm a fuzzy feeling but suffered a demonstrated of his love .

He "hates". Another way of saying he does not do the work of blessing love. He hastes the sin and the sinner. (Psalm 5:5 )

Love or God who works in us as to its first work is to be patient longsuffering .If not patient it does not build to next labor of his love. Patient love is kind . The Patient and kind Love does not envy . . no need to boast and it follows through performing all its works as His perfect love.

Only God can love perfectly .We all fail in one attribute or another .Perfect love cast our out all fear. Fear has to do with punishments' .He drank the cup of wrath , We can rest in His love.
You're right - I agree - well said!
 
Jun 25, 2020
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My comments were clearly addressing only one part of Romans:

(Rom 5:8) But God commends his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Within the context, we must ask:

1) To whom was Paul writing? No to all mankind but to believers. In this case, the Saints who were in Rome. (Do you deny that he was writing to believers in Rome? Rom 1:7 to all that are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. )
2) Then the "us" are the believers in Rome. The message then has applications to all other believers, in all the various assemblies. (This truth still stands)
3) The "we" are the same people as are the "us". (This truth still stands)
4) You cannot apply this to all of humanity, since all of humanity was not being written to, in this particular context. There are many verses of Scripture that are to all mankind but this is not one of them. (This truth still stands)

If you do not understand hermenuetics and do not keep verses within intended contexts, you cannot truly understand the message.
I say this with all humility, in the hopes of being helpful, to those who truly wish to learn. No man has arrived, when it comes to knowledge and we should all strive to be ever learning.

I do appreciate your responding and giving your explanations to the following: Romans 9:13 and Jeremiah 49:10.

I do not disagree with some of the points you were making, However, you are really going out of your way to deny that God has a Holy Hatred. His hatred is indeed not like ours, it is a perfect hatred. We as mortal, sinful, beings, cannot hope to understand what Holy anger, hatred and vengeance really are. We do good to even scratch the surface of what Holiness really is. However, you cannot say that God did these things because He loved them. This eliminates any distinction between His outpouring of emotions for the saved and the unsaved. Yes He has done to the enemies what His Holy Justice requires but you cannot say that He loves those whom He intends to destroy. This would make God conflicted.

You summarized by saying:

Overall
God being just, does not mean He does not have love. (I never claimed He didn't.... So where did you get this?)
The punishment of the wicked by Him is not a sign that He hates them
. (Oh, so now you would have God killing and punishing those He loves?) There is a consequence for every action. For whatever a man sows, that he will also reap (Galatians 6:7) Agree, that man will reap what he sows. God's Holy Justice must be satisfied.

Then you said I should not use the precept that God hates. Why would I repent for a term, that God Himself has used. The word hate is used in Scripture, King James Version, 87 times, in 85 verses, either by God or by man. The word hated is used 60 times in 56 verses, either by God or man.
Hello Awelight, if you read the New Testament you will notice that the books written by Paul were addressed to Believers/Saints.
You read this in the first paragraphs of Romans, Corinthians, Ephesians, and Philippians. Colossians etc.

Every group of people that Paul wrote a letter to had their own unique culture, history, and traditions. And the letters that were written by Paul, were written in such a way that it would be understandable to the people living in that region based on their culture, history, and traditions.

However, whether Paul was writing to the believers in Rome or the believers in Ephesus or the believers in Colossae, he had one main message to preach to everyone, which was how to be saved. This message is a universal message and is not limited to the people living in that region.

Paul in the book of Romans was addressing and speaking to the believers in Rome.
However, the message is not only limited to the believers in Rome.

Christ in Matthew 28:19-20 and Mark 16:15 told his disciples to go to the world and preach the gospel.

This gospel needs to be preached to all mankind. Paul went about preaching this gospel everywhere he went, whether it was in Rome, Ephesus or Galatia etc.
Therefore whether he was writing to the believers in Rome, or the believers in Galatia or the believers in Thessalonica, the gospel that he preached is applicable and is it actually addressed to all mankind/humanity. The only time that the message that Paul or any bible author writes that is not applicable to humanity is if the author addresses an issue that was only done by that nation.

The bible is an inspired book that is written for the benefit of all humanity:
  • Romans 15:4 - For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
  • 2 Timothy3:16 - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. (So whether it is a letter written to the Roman believers or believers in Ephesus, we all can benefit (All humanity) from it and cannot say that that message was only meant for the Roman believers or that message was only meant for the Ephesians believers, not me or not that sinner over there).

Therefore, Romans 5:8, “But God commends/demonstrates his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” Is not only applicable to the believers in Rome, but also to the believers in Ephesus, believers in Thessalonica, and all believers. In fact, it is applicable to all humanity because it is a message that is part of the gospel that should be preached throughout the entire world.
God killing or punishing the wicked

God does not like killing wicked people. Ezekiel 33:10-12 says “Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?”

In fact, God pleads and begs for the wicked and sinners change, so that He does not have to destroy/kill them. (Read Ezekiel 18:30-31). Would God plead for the wicked to change, if He did not love them?

We even read in Matthew 5:44 where Christ tells us that we should love our enemies. The wicked are the enemies of God (Read Colossians 1:21 and Psalm 37:20).
God will not tell us something that He does not believe in or which He will not do. If He expects us to love our enemies, then it means that He also loves his enemies, which are the wicked.

We even see God’s reluctance to kill the wicked in various stories in the bible. For example in the story of the prophet Jonah, He tells him to warn Nineveh that it will be destroyed because of its wickedness. And as soon as Nineveh repented, God decided to not destroy them, which angered Jonah. (Read Jonah 4:1-3).

However, if there is no repentance, then the penalty of sin is death:
  • Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
  • James 1:15 - Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
742
302
63
Hello Awelight, if you read the New Testament you will notice that the books written by Paul were addressed to Believers/Saints.
You read this in the first paragraphs of Romans, Corinthians, Ephesians, and Philippians. Colossians etc.

Every group of people that Paul wrote a letter to had their own unique culture, history, and traditions. And the letters that were written by Paul, were written in such a way that it would be understandable to the people living in that region based on their culture, history, and traditions.

However, whether Paul was writing to the believers in Rome or the believers in Ephesus or the believers in Colossae, he had one main message to preach to everyone, which was how to be saved. This message is a universal message and is not limited to the people living in that region.

Paul in the book of Romans was addressing and speaking to the believers in Rome.
However, the message is not only limited to the believers in Rome.

Christ in Matthew 28:19-20 and Mark 16:15 told his disciples to go to the world and preach the gospel.

This gospel needs to be preached to all mankind. Paul went about preaching this gospel everywhere he went, whether it was in Rome, Ephesus or Galatia etc.
Therefore whether he was writing to the believers in Rome, or the believers in Galatia or the believers in Thessalonica, the gospel that he preached is applicable and is it actually addressed to all mankind/humanity. The only time that the message that Paul or any bible author writes that is not applicable to humanity is if the author addresses an issue that was only done by that nation.

The bible is an inspired book that is written for the benefit of all humanity:
  • Romans 15:4 - For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
  • 2 Timothy3:16 - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. (So whether it is a letter written to the Roman believers or believers in Ephesus, we all can benefit (All humanity) from it and cannot say that that message was only meant for the Roman believers or that message was only meant for the Ephesians believers, not me or not that sinner over there).

Therefore, Romans 5:8, “But God commends/demonstrates his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” Is not only applicable to the believers in Rome, but also to the believers in Ephesus, believers in Thessalonica, and all believers. In fact, it is applicable to all humanity because it is a message that is part of the gospel that should be preached throughout the entire world.
God killing or punishing the wicked

God does not like killing wicked people. Ezekiel 33:10-12 says “Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?”

In fact, God pleads and begs for the wicked and sinners change, so that He does not have to destroy/kill them. (Read Ezekiel 18:30-31). Would God plead for the wicked to change, if He did not love them?

We even read in Matthew 5:44 where Christ tells us that we should love our enemies. The wicked are the enemies of God (Read Colossians 1:21 and Psalm 37:20).
God will not tell us something that He does not believe in or which He will not do. If He expects us to love our enemies, then it means that He also loves his enemies, which are the wicked.

We even see God’s reluctance to kill the wicked in various stories in the bible. For example in the story of the prophet Jonah, He tells him to warn Nineveh that it will be destroyed because of its wickedness. And as soon as Nineveh repented, God decided to not destroy them, which angered Jonah. (Read Jonah 4:1-3).

However, if there is no repentance, then the penalty of sin is death:
  • Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
  • James 1:15 - Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Well said, and true!
 

awelight

Active member
Aug 10, 2020
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I do agree with you that God's ways aren't our ways. I don't agree with how exactly you define God, I quote, "hating" people.
God's "hatred" seems more as God says here: "I will spit you out of my mouth"...
God does love everyone, and He's merciful to our weaknesses.
He just can't abide with deliberate sin and unwholesome heart, it repulses Him.
What you call "neglect", I think you're onto something, but I would like to remind of the Scripture that God rains and shines sun on both the evil and the good, which is why that hypothesis doesn't stand.
Then Jesus calls us to be "perfect like our Father in Heaven" who loves both "good" and "bad" people, and not like tax collectors and the ungodly who only love some people. If God did as you described and only loved the elect, that would be hypocrisy.
I would rather use Biblical term "hardening of heart" here.
When a person ignores or disobeys God, they spiritually deteriorate into more sin and heart gets even harder.
And God speaks to them less and less, because they won't listen anyway!
Even Christians are warned to be careful not to stumble in this and quench the Spirit.

Election is explained with God's foreknowledge.
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge...

So with that perspective, how does God's ability to predict the future (because He knows us so well) deny the fact that we make choices? If we deny ability to choose, even though God's grace is prerequisite for salvation, we can't run off into the left field with it. Verses such as "choose ye this day whom ye will serve" then lose every meaning.
Please let's not pit Scripture against Scripture here.

As to you saying about foreknowledge that it marks intimate relationship with God,
I've got one question.
Does eternal life extend only into the future?

As to foreknowledge, God's foreknowing, taught in Romans 8:29, is limited to the elect, the ones chosen before the foundation of the world, (Eph. 1:4). This intimate relationship does not apply to the non-elect. This is why our Lord said in: (Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. The greek word translated in English, "never knew", means "to not know at any time". (As defined by both the works of: "Strong" and "Thayer"), That is, to have not known this one or these, in an intimate and loving way. Certainly, God has knowledge of everyone, even to the number of the hairs on ones head and in every act that a person commits. But only the chosen of God, does God know in an intimate way.

As to foreknowing events, God does not predict, as one might as a fortune teller. God's foreknowledge, is perfect in every way because it is based on His eternal decrees. The one man, Solomon, called the wisest man to have ever lived, in Scripture, said it this way:

Ecc 3:14-5, I know that, whatsoever God does, it shall be forever (since God is eternal, everything He does and says, is eternal with Him): nothing can be added to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God is doing it, that men should fear before him. That which has been, is now; and that which is to be has already been (By interpretation, That which is the present, has already been and that which is future, has already been); and God requires that which is past. (God requires, that which He decreed, from eternity). This is a deep, deep subject and would take the space of an entire book to do it justice..

You have some interesting points in your reply. It seems to me, the thrust of your statements go to "ability".

God has the right, as God, to place such demands on His creation, as you quoted: "choose ye this day whom ye will serve". This is a "general" proclamation. However, whether one can choose correctly, goes to "spiritual ability". Whether one, is dead (spiritually speaking), in trespasses and sins still or has been made alive, by being "Born from Above". We must always distinguish, which parts of the Bible, are "general" in their proclamations and those that are "effectual". God calls ALL to repent but this call to repent will only be "effectual" in His chosen people. Because God made it effectual in the New Birth, wherein a new heart was regenerated. Apart from this act of God on the sinner, you are left with the reality of Romans Chapter 1 and 2.

Another way ts say this would be: "One may choose Christ but it does not follow that Christ chose that one."

The Gospel message is not about "election", it is about Jesus Christ's crucifixion, death and resurrection and God proclaiming ALL to Repent and Believe on His Son. Learning about things like, Election, Regeneration and Conversion are the things we learn from Truthful, diligent teaching and study, as we are lead by the Holy Spirit. They are not necessary for Salvation. I think it is safe to say, the Thief on the cross, next to Jesus, did not know anything about Election, Regeneration or Conversion. Therefore, if the Good Lord grants us enough time on this Earth, we may move from the "bottle" of our knowledge, to eating "meat"; thus, getting to know the deep things of God.

As to your question about "eternal life":

I believe the right to eternal life, first goes to the Lamb's Book of Life. This BOOK was written in ETERNITY. Every single person who's name is written therein, will have eternal life. God will make sure of that. This in part, goes back to the question about the verses in John 6. Secondly, This eternal life (or adoption), is made legal at the "Time of Love" (Eze 16:8), Also called the New Birth, in the New Testament. Thirdly, it will be experienced when the believer steps out of time and into eternity.

I hope that answers your question.
 

awelight

Active member
Aug 10, 2020
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Hello Awelight, if you read the New Testament you will notice that the books written by Paul were addressed to Believers/Saints.
You read this in the first paragraphs of Romans, Corinthians, Ephesians, and Philippians. Colossians etc.

Every group of people that Paul wrote a letter to had their own unique culture, history, and traditions. And the letters that were written by Paul, were written in such a way that it would be understandable to the people living in that region based on their culture, history, and traditions.

However, whether Paul was writing to the believers in Rome or the believers in Ephesus or the believers in Colossae, he had one main message to preach to everyone, which was how to be saved. This message is a universal message and is not limited to the people living in that region.

Paul in the book of Romans was addressing and speaking to the believers in Rome.
However, the message is not only limited to the believers in Rome.

Christ in Matthew 28:19-20 and Mark 16:15 told his disciples to go to the world and preach the gospel.

This gospel needs to be preached to all mankind. Paul went about preaching this gospel everywhere he went, whether it was in Rome, Ephesus or Galatia etc.
Therefore whether he was writing to the believers in Rome, or the believers in Galatia or the believers in Thessalonica, the gospel that he preached is applicable and is it actually addressed to all mankind/humanity. The only time that the message that Paul or any bible author writes that is not applicable to humanity is if the author addresses an issue that was only done by that nation.

The bible is an inspired book that is written for the benefit of all humanity:
  • Romans 15:4 - For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
  • 2 Timothy3:16 - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. (So whether it is a letter written to the Roman believers or believers in Ephesus, we all can benefit (All humanity) from it and cannot say that that message was only meant for the Roman believers or that message was only meant for the Ephesians believers, not me or not that sinner over there).

Therefore, Romans 5:8, “But God commends/demonstrates his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” Is not only applicable to the believers in Rome, but also to the believers in Ephesus, believers in Thessalonica, and all believers. In fact, it is applicable to all humanity because it is a message that is part of the gospel that should be preached throughout the entire world.
God killing or punishing the wicked

God does not like killing wicked people. Ezekiel 33:10-12 says “Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?”

In fact, God pleads and begs for the wicked and sinners change, so that He does not have to destroy/kill them. (Read Ezekiel 18:30-31). Would God plead for the wicked to change, if He did not love them?

We even read in Matthew 5:44 where Christ tells us that we should love our enemies. The wicked are the enemies of God (Read Colossians 1:21 and Psalm 37:20).
God will not tell us something that He does not believe in or which He will not do. If He expects us to love our enemies, then it means that He also loves his enemies, which are the wicked.

We even see God’s reluctance to kill the wicked in various stories in the bible. For example in the story of the prophet Jonah, He tells him to warn Nineveh that it will be destroyed because of its wickedness. And as soon as Nineveh repented, God decided to not destroy them, which angered Jonah. (Read Jonah 4:1-3).

However, if there is no repentance, then the penalty of sin is death:
  • Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
  • James 1:15 - Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

I take no exception to your main point and agree, The message is for everyone to read. However, if you go back and look at my posts again, you will notice that my comments are defining only that, at the time of Paul's writing, the "us" and "we" were all believers in that assembly. Paul, was not writing to those who were outside the assembly.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
2,630
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Some of yall preaching gandhi again!

He hates THE SINNER

God hates the SINNER, not "the sin"

This is a bible truth in the NEW and the OLD testament.

The precious John 3:16 says as much if you'd keep reading to verse 36.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

WRATH OF GOD ABIDETH ON HIM. ON HIM ON HIM ON HIM ON HIM. Not "the sin" but HIM the person. God's wrath remains on them who dont believe. CLEAR CUT, its the same way in the greek and in ALL the translations and I am close to vomiting from reading this thread where supposed CHRISTIANS dont even know John chapter 3, but they know what their lying pastor told em about God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. "Hate the sin not the sinner, just like God" WELL. God hates the sinner, no matter what gandhi or the lying pastors who preach the same say!

I wont even go to the OT examples which are PLENTY. John 3:36 seals the deal, in the same chapter as everyone's favorite John 3:16. (Also the only verse they know)

If anyoen comes back to me with "NUH-UHH" they have proven themselves to be a Bible rejector, rejecting John 3:36 and numerous other Scriptures and are part of the NEW AGE phony Christianity thats recently been popping up!

This is easy to understand: ALL humanity is wicked. God loved (something happened in the past, 2000years ago..) the world and sent His only begotten son..................... HOWEVER, if folks dont believe in this Son, the WRATH OF GOD still abides on them. VERSE 36 of John chapter 3. KEEP READING. Dont get lazy now
 

awelight

Active member
Aug 10, 2020
856
242
43
66
Some of yall preaching gandhi again!

He hates THE SINNER

God hates the SINNER, not "the sin"

This is a bible truth in the NEW and the OLD testament.

The precious John 3:16 says as much if you'd keep reading to verse 36.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

WRATH OF GOD ABIDETH ON HIM. ON HIM ON HIM ON HIM ON HIM. Not "the sin" but HIM the person. God's wrath remains on them who dont believe. CLEAR CUT, its the same way in the greek and in ALL the translations and I am close to vomiting from reading this thread where supposed CHRISTIANS dont even know John chapter 3, but they know what their lying pastor told em about God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. "Hate the sin not the sinner, just like God" WELL. God hates the sinner, no matter what gandhi or the lying pastors who preach the same say!

I wont even go to the OT examples which are PLENTY. John 3:36 seals the deal, in the same chapter as everyone's favorite John 3:16. (Also the only verse they know)

If anyoen comes back to me with "NUH-UHH" they have proven themselves to be a Bible rejector, rejecting John 3:36 and numerous other Scriptures and are part of the NEW AGE phony Christianity thats recently been popping up!

This is easy to understand: ALL humanity is wicked. God loved (something happened in the past, 2000years ago..) the world and sent His only begotten son..................... HOWEVER, if folks dont believe in this Son, the WRATH OF GOD still abides on them. VERSE 36 of John chapter 3. KEEP READING. Dont get lazy now

You are right on. I hate the nonsense proclaimed by some. God loves the sinner but hates the sin. What a bunch of lies. I guess when exercising assembly discipline, the elder is to excommunicate the sin and not the one who committed it.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
You are right on. I hate the nonsense proclaimed by some. God loves the sinner but hates the sin. What a bunch of lies. I guess when exercising assembly discipline, the elder is to excommunicate the sin and not the one who committed it.
Did Jesus love the rich young ruler?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
1,591
113
Could I ask my brothers and sisters to faithfully read the whole post and seek to understand, rather than have a knee jerk reaction to the thread title.
Sorry that I feel I have to say this, but the reaction I've got in other threads has been as a result of a reaction to the thread title from people who haven't sought to understand the thread content :)


There are many generalised expressions within our faith, that if you take the time to pick apart, just aren't true.
"God loves everyone" is one such false expression.
"Jesus died for everybody's sins" is another one, which is covered in another thread.

John 3:16 is always cited as support for "God loves everyone", but the verse does not say these words.
Below is the full passage that shows the context of the often referenced verse:


John 3:16:
"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten God. 19 And this is the condemnation that light is come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved"


Notice that the verse does not say "God loves everyone".
It says that whosoever believeth should not perish but have eternal life.

Verse 15 always seems to be left out of the "God loves everyone" message because it is restrictive, and does not suit the purpose of those who push the "God loves everyone" message.

"For God so loved the world" refers to the fact that Jesus was speaking to a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews (John 16:1) who believed that only the Jews were saved to the exclusion of the rest of the world. John 3:18 and 19 clear up any question about the matter.

"God loves everyone" is straight from the mind of satan and the ministers that serve him. In essence it teaches that man can lead a sinful life, violate the commandments of God daily, not fear him and still go to heaven.


At this point there may be a few people who will equate having to keep the commandments of God with preaching a 'salvation by works' doctrine, but this is not the case. Those who say this do so because they have no intention of trying to keep God's commandments, and so they seek to accuse.

John 14:15
"If you love me, keep my commandments".

John 15:14
"You are my friends if you do what I command you".

Ecclesiastes 12:13
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man".


"God loves everyone" doctrine implies that man does not have to be accountable for his/her sins. It teaches that because "God loves everyone", that there is no need to fear him.

"God loves everyone", aka
"God loves and accepts everyone no matter what", "God's attributes are ONLY love and forgiveness for all", "God has no anger and is accepting of all behaviors".
False:

Rev 14:10
Jeremiah 25:15
Jude 14-15
Rev 14:11
Deut 32:22
Isaiah 30:33
2 Thes 1:6
2 Thes 1:8-9
Matthew 10:34-35
Matthew 7:21
Matthew 7:22-23
Matthew 12:30
Matthew 12:34-35
Matthew 12: 36-37
Matthew 15:8-9
Matthew 23:14
Matthew 23:15
Matthew 23:29-33
Mark 9:42-48
Mark 16:16
Luke 13:23-28
Luke 16:19-31
Luke 18:6-8
John 8:44
John 17:9
Rev 21:8
Isaiah 13:9
Isaiah 66:24
Psalms 7:11
Romans 1:18
1 Thes 5:3
2 Peter 2:9-10
Rev 6:10
Rev 6:15-17
Rev 20:12-15
Psalms 55:15


I could continue quoting scripture in order to reveal the true nature of God, which flies in the face of the "God loves everyone" doctrine, but I think 36 verses will suffice for now ;)
John 3.
14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Would you agree that all those that looked at the Serpent lived ? Well in the same manner God provides a way for anyone who 'looks 'at Jesus for their salvation is equally saved ? The love is demonstrated in the provision. The provision in the case of Jesus is for the whole world . The love is demonstrated by the cross to the entire world who Jesus paid for the sins of the entire cosmos ,including the entire creation . You could not find a greater example of love than the cross . This shows how anti Christian Calvinism is . Calvinism has this 'me 'centred theology that because of Augustine still cannot grasp that Jesus died for everyone but they still need Glorification. Glorification is only possible by receiving Jesus then the grace is accessed through Faith . But what great love was demonstrated in that He died while ( not for just calvinists who think the word 'us ' ' world ' All men ' means ' us calvinists ' ) we were sinners . Every sinner ,whether they like it or not their sins are paid by the greatest possible expression of love we could ever understand. Your attacking the greatest message ever known to man . God's provision is for all . I don't know of any other expression of love other than Jesus death ,burial and resurrection. Wake up calvinists ,you've been decieved by the system.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
1,591
113
Could I ask my brothers and sisters to faithfully read the whole post and seek to understand, rather than have a knee jerk reaction to the thread title.
Sorry that I feel I have to say this, but the reaction I've got in other threads has been as a result of a reaction to the thread title from people who haven't sought to understand the thread content :)


There are many generalised expressions within our faith, that if you take the time to pick apart, just aren't true.
"God loves everyone" is one such false expression.
"Jesus died for everybody's sins" is another one, which is covered in another thread.

John 3:16 is always cited as support for "God loves everyone", but the verse does not say these words.
Below is the full passage that shows the context of the often referenced verse:


John 3:16:
"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten God. 19 And this is the condemnation that light is come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved"


Notice that the verse does not say "God loves everyone".
It says that whosoever believeth should not perish but have eternal life.

Verse 15 always seems to be left out of the "God loves everyone" message because it is restrictive, and does not suit the purpose of those who push the "God loves everyone" message.

"For God so loved the world" refers to the fact that Jesus was speaking to a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews (John 16:1) who believed that only the Jews were saved to the exclusion of the rest of the world. John 3:18 and 19 clear up any question about the matter.

"God loves everyone" is straight from the mind of satan and the ministers that serve him. In essence it teaches that man can lead a sinful life, violate the commandments of God daily, not fear him and still go to heaven.


At this point there may be a few people who will equate having to keep the commandments of God with preaching a 'salvation by works' doctrine, but this is not the case. Those who say this do so because they have no intention of trying to keep God's commandments, and so they seek to accuse.

John 14:15
"If you love me, keep my commandments".

John 15:14
"You are my friends if you do what I command you".

Ecclesiastes 12:13
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man".


"God loves everyone" doctrine implies that man does not have to be accountable for his/her sins. It teaches that because "God loves everyone", that there is no need to fear him.

"God loves everyone", aka
"God loves and accepts everyone no matter what", "God's attributes are ONLY love and forgiveness for all", "God has no anger and is accepting of all behaviors".
False:

Rev 14:10
Jeremiah 25:15
Jude 14-15
Rev 14:11
Deut 32:22
Isaiah 30:33
2 Thes 1:6
2 Thes 1:8-9
Matthew 10:34-35
Matthew 7:21
Matthew 7:22-23
Matthew 12:30
Matthew 12:34-35
Matthew 12: 36-37
Matthew 15:8-9
Matthew 23:14
Matthew 23:15
Matthew 23:29-33
Mark 9:42-48
Mark 16:16
Luke 13:23-28
Luke 16:19-31
Luke 18:6-8
John 8:44
John 17:9
Rev 21:8
Isaiah 13:9
Isaiah 66:24
Psalms 7:11
Romans 1:18
1 Thes 5:3
2 Peter 2:9-10
Rev 6:10
Rev 6:15-17
Rev 20:12-15
Psalms 55:15


I could continue quoting scripture in order to reveal the true nature of God, which flies in the face of the "God loves everyone" doctrine, but I think 36 verses will suffice for now ;)
///God loves everyone" doctrine implies that man does not have to be accountable for his/her sins. It teaches that because "God loves everyone", that there is no need to fear him.////Do you mean accountable for sins that Jesus paid for in the sense of still being under the penalty of sins even after Jesus has paid for them ? Did Jesus only pay for some sins ? Did Jesus not blot out the hand writing of ordinances? has the cross not really happened . I.m confused by your op ?