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throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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Your accusation against me as "speaking without scripture" is false. Everything I think and say is based on scripture.

God is NOT a racist thinking of the Jews or gentiles only. God loves both Jews and gentiles. God wants, has wanted, will always want all humans to go to Him, that is the true God told of in all your "context" and "who God speaks to". If we lose sight of that in this "context' and 'who God is speaking to'", we lose sight of scripture. It is simple truth, I don't see why you are on such a high horse with all these objections to that simple truth.
I guess Jesus is a racist then?
eph 2
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Matt 15
5¶These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mtt 10
24¶But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25¶Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26¶But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

Acts 11
19¶Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
 

Evmur

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Feb 28, 2021
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There are multiple ways, throughout both the old and new testaments alike, to disprove the teaching of “once saved, always saved” or “OSAS”. In this post, I’ll begin by examining one of the teachings of Jesus Christ as recorded in one of his parables.

I’ve deliberately chosen the words of Jesus because if anybody knows whether or not “once saved, always saved” is true, then it is most certainly the Savior himself who knows the same. As we’re about to begin to see, Jesus never taught “once saved, always saved” as a doctrine, but, instead, he regularly taught the polar opposite or that people who were “once saved” could later be lost.

We read:

Mark chapter 4

[1] And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great multitude, so that he entered into a ship, and sat in the sea; and the whole multitude was by the sea on the land.
[2] And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,
[3] Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:
[4] And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.
[5] And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:
[6] But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
[7] And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.
[8] And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.
[9] And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
[10] And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
[11] And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
[12] That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
[13] And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
[14] The sower soweth the word.
[15] And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
[16] And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
[17] And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
[18] And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
[19] And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
[20] And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

The first thing that we need to notice is Jesus’ question to his disciples:

“Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?” (vs. 13)

Here, Jesus was informing his disciples that they would not be able to properly understand all of his other parables without first properly understanding this particular parable.

With such being the case, what did Jesus teach in regard to salvation in this parable?

Did he teach “once saved, always saved”, or did he, in reality, teach the polar opposite of the same?

In this parable, Jesus spoke of four different types of soil or four different conditions of the human heart with which the seed of God’s word makes contact.

In relation to the seed which “fell by the way side” (vs. 4), Jesus said:

“And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.” (vs. 15)

This first group of hearers, sad to say, is never “saved” to begin with in that Satan immediately takes away the word that is sown in their hearts. As such, “once saved, always saved” has no real relevance here.

In relation to the seed which “fell upon stony ground” (vs. 5), Jesus said:

“And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.” (vss. 16-17)

This group of hearers “when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness” and “endure but for a time”. Yes, as Jesus said in vs. 5, “immediately it sprang up” or immediately the word which was received had results in regard to salvation.

In the parallel account of this parable in Matthew’s gospel, this group of hearers “dureth for a while” (Matt. 13:21), and in the parallel account in Luke’s gospel, this group of hearers “for a while believe” (Luke 8:13). With such being the case, these hearers are “once saved”, but, sad to say, they are not “always saved” in that “when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended” or, as Luke’s account puts it, these hearers are those who “in time of temptation fall away” (Luke 8:13). One simply cannot “fall away” from something of which he or she was never a part to begin with, so Jesus was definitely NOT teaching “once saved, always saved” here.

In relation to the seed which “fell among thorns” (vs. 7), Jesus said:

“And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.” (vss. 18-19)

This group of hearers initially receive the word and bear fruit until the time comes that “the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful”. Something cannot “become unfruitful” unless it was first fruitful.

In fact, in the parallel account in Luke’s gospel, this group of hearers “bring no fruit to perfection” (Luke 8:14). Again, there was some initial growth in relation to “fruit”, but, sad to say, such got choked and it became unfruitful. No “once saved, always saved” here, either.

In relation to the seed which “fell on good ground” (vs. 8), Jesus said:

“And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.” (vs. 20)

Here’s what Jesus said about this group of hearers in Luke’s parallel account:

“But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.” (Luke 8:15)

It’s not enough to initially receive the word which is sown within our hearts, but we must “keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience”. In other words, as Jesus said elsewhere, it is only “he that endureth to the end” who “shall be saved” (Matthew 10:22, 24:13).

This same principle is found throughout other parables which Jesus taught as well.
In this parable the seed which was sown in good soil bore good fruit ... there was no failure, it didn't lose it's salvation.

"good" here means cultivated, prepared, ready to receive the seed. "whom God foreknew He also predestinated and elected and called and justified ..."

The answer for the other soils is not to abandon them but to cultivate them ... get them thorns and thistles out, clear it of stones
 

Evmur

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Feb 28, 2021
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What you are trying to prove is the idea that we cannot choose to walk
away from the Lord if we once became His forgiven, saved person.

Matthew 24: 12 Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. 13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.
Where yuh gunna walk to? if you make your bed in the sea bed He is there, if you take the wings of the dove and fly to the far side of the mountain behold He is there and His right hand will hold you fast.

He may punish you, He may punish you sore, He may even kill you but He has sworn to save you and He will.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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In this parable the seed which was sown in good soil bore good fruit ... there was no failure, it didn't lose it's salvation.
The parable of the soils isn't about salvation. It's about fruit production. Soil 1 was the only soil that wasn't saved, because the devil stole the seed (Word of God) so they couldn't believe. Soils 2-4 were all saved (Luke 8:13) but only soil 4 produced fruit. Soils 2 and 3 were distracted by testing/temptations, and the worries of this world.

However, my real concern here is the comment about "losing it's salvation". That is impossible, because Jesus taught in Johbn 5:24 that believers those who believe (present tense) HAVE (present tense) eternal life. So, it's clear that at the moment one believes in Christ for salvation, they possess eternal life.

Then, in John 10:28 Jesus said, "I give them (believers, from 5:24) eternal life, and they (believers) shall never perish.

The point is that eternal security is solely based on what Jesus has done. When a person believes, they are given eternal life. And the result is that they shall never perish.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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Where yuh gunna walk to? if you make your bed in the sea bed He is there, if you take the wings of the dove and fly to the far side of the mountain behold He is there and His right hand will hold you fast.

He may punish you, He may punish you sore, He may even kill you but He has sworn to save you and He will.
Amen!
 
Jan 12, 2019
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The parable of the soils isn't about salvation. It's about fruit production. Soil 1 was the only soil that wasn't saved, because the devil stole the seed (Word of God) so they couldn't believe. Soils 2-4 were all saved (Luke 8:13) but only soil 4 produced fruit. Soils 2 and 3 were distracted by testing/temptations, and the worries of this world.

However, my real concern here is the comment about "losing it's salvation". That is impossible, because Jesus taught in Johbn 5:24 that believers those who believe (present tense) HAVE (present tense) eternal life. So, it's clear that at the moment one believes in Christ for salvation, they possess eternal life.

Then, in John 10:28 Jesus said, "I give them (believers, from 5:24) eternal life, and they (believers) shall never perish.

The point is that eternal security is solely based on what Jesus has done. When a person believes, they are given eternal life. And the result is that they shall never perish.
And yet, people can quote you verses where Jesus said he who endures to the end shall be saved.

You cannot just cherry pick what Jesus said like that, to support OSAS. Others can similarly use them otherwise
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
And yet, people can quote you verses where Jesus said he who endures to the end shall be saved.

You cannot just cherry pick what Jesus said like that, to support OSAS. Others can similarly use them otherwise
Jesus was not talking about eternal salvation here

He was talking about those alive and surviving till the nd of tribulation when he returns.

You can;t twist the true meaning of scripture either
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
The parable of the soils isn't about salvation. It's about fruit production. Soil 1 was the only soil that wasn't saved, because the devil stole the seed (Word of God) so they couldn't believe. Soils 2-4 were all saved (Luke 8:13) but only soil 4 produced fruit. Soils 2 and 3 were distracted by testing/temptations, and the worries of this world.

However, my real concern here is the comment about "losing it's salvation". That is impossible, because Jesus taught in Johbn 5:24 that believers those who believe (present tense) HAVE (present tense) eternal life. So, it's clear that at the moment one believes in Christ for salvation, they possess eternal life.

Then, in John 10:28 Jesus said, "I give them (believers, from 5:24) eternal life, and they (believers) shall never perish.

The point is that eternal security is solely based on what Jesus has done. When a person believes, they are given eternal life. And the result is that they shall never perish.
I disagree

The last one was the only one saved

The rest did not produce fruit because they were never saved The seed was planted But it did not produce fruit.

I believe Jesus is speaking of all the different ways people recieve the seed. and how the seed before it produces is killed,

they are trying to use it to show how salvation can be lost. Because the plant sprouted (in their view salvation occured) but died, thus it lost salvation.

which is a faulty view,

and I agree with you about eternaal life

John said we can know we have eternal life. Not might get it. And by this knowledge we can continue to have faith. It is the root of our faith. If we do not KNOW we have it and are secure. we have no basis or hope to continue to hold faith. Thats why so many walk away. they had no root.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Jesus was not talking about eternal salvation here

He was talking about those alive and surviving till the nd of tribulation when he returns.

You can;t twist the true meaning of scripture either
You are free to interpret as that to fit your doctrine.

That doesn’t make that interpretation the true meaning for everyone else.
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
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And yet, people can quote you verses where Jesus said he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Sure. But let's examine the actual context for that verse. The context is the 7 year Tribulation. So "the end" refers to the end of the 7 years of Tribulation.

Therefore, that verse applies ONLY to those who will be going through it. So it cannot be a verse about final salvation. It's about deliverance from danger, and living through the Trib.

You cannot just cherry pick what Jesus said like that, to support OSAS. Others can similarly use them otherwise
Could you explain to me how John 10:28, which is as clear as can be for eternal security, is a "cherry-picked" verse?

What Arminians don't have is any clearly stated verse about losing salvation. So they have to take verses out of context, and mis-interpret them to get to their opinions.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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I disagree

The last one was the only one saved
Many people disagree with my assessment. But I look to Scripture for understanding. Luke 8:13, which I provided in my post makes clear that the second soil DID believe, and therefore, were saved. Period.

And consider this: the FACT that plants actually GREW UP in soils 2-4 demonstrates LIFE, unlike the first soil, where there was NO plant because there was NO seed in the soil. A pretty good analogy.

Where God's Word sprouts, there is LIFE. And that happened in soils 2-4.

The rest did not produce fruit because they were never saved The seed was planted But it did not produce fruit.
Fruit is used throughout the NT to refer to works done in the Spirit. Ever heard of the "fruit of the Spirit"? Sure you have. And in John 15, Jesus made clear that to bear fruit, one had to abide in Him. Since all believers are placed IN union with Christ by the sealing of the Holy Spirit, Jesus wasn't referring to being saved, but to being IN FELLOWSHIP with Him.

iow, when believers are OUT OF fellowship with the Lord (grieving-Eph 4:30 and quenching-1 Thess 5:19) they CANNOT bear fruit.

I believe Jesus is speaking of all the different ways people recieve the seed. and how the seed before it produces is killed,
Jesus spoke of ONLY ONE WAY to receive the seed. Believe it. John 5:24, 11:25. And soils 2-4 ALL produced plants, showing LIFE.

However, just because a person believes and is saved doesn't mean they will produce fruit. That's a myth propagated by wrong headed pastors who don't really study the Word. They can't explain the fact that plants grew in soils 2-4, but only soil 1 didn't have a plant, clearly showing soil 1 wasn't saved.

John said we can know we have eternal life. Not might get it.
The only ones who won't receive eternal life are those who have never believed.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

The red words are the same in both verses. It is only those who have not (never) believed that will be condemned.

And by this knowledge we can continue to have faith. It is the root of our faith. If we do not KNOW we have it and are secure. we have no basis or hope to continue to hold faith. Thats why so many walk away. they had no root.
Not sure what you are referring to here. Please clarify. Thanks.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Many people disagree with my assessment. But I look to Scripture for understanding. Luke 8:13, which I provided in my post makes clear that the second soil DID believe, and therefore, were saved. Period.

And consider this: the FACT that plants actually GREW UP in soils 2-4 demonstrates LIFE, unlike the first soil, where there was NO plant because there was NO seed in the soil. A pretty good analogy.

Where God's Word sprouts, there is LIFE. And that happened in soils 2-4.
I disagree, I used to think this. Then I got to really study it and found that Jesus was talking about all the ways people respond to the gospel. Thus I changed my View.


Fruit is used throughout the NT to refer to works done in the Spirit. Ever heard of the "fruit of the Spirit"? Sure you have. And in John 15, Jesus made clear that to bear fruit, one had to abide in Him. Since all believers are placed IN union with Christ by the sealing of the Holy Spirit, Jesus wasn't referring to being saved, but to being IN FELLOWSHIP with Him.

iow, when believers are OUT OF fellowship with the Lord (grieving-Eph 4:30 and quenching-1 Thess 5:19) they CANNOT bear fruit.


Jesus spoke of ONLY ONE WAY to receive the seed. Believe it. John 5:24, 11:25. And soils 2-4 ALL produced plants, showing LIFE.

However, just because a person believes and is saved doesn't mean they will produce fruit. That's a myth propagated by wrong headed pastors who don't really study the Word. They can't explain the fact that plants grew in soils 2-4, but only soil 1 didn't have a plant, clearly showing soil 1 wasn't saved.


The only ones who won't receive eternal life are those who have never believed.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

The red words are the same in both verses. It is only those who have not (never) believed that will be condemned.


Not sure what you are referring to here. Please clarify. Thanks.
Jesus did not say they produced fruit here and then got out of fellowship and stopped producing fruit. He said it never produced fruit. Yes it is fruit of the spirit. Because the Spirit was involved

The last one produced fruit of the spirit. Because it had the spirit.

I agree with alot you said here. But I did nto want to break it up so kept my comments to the seed passage.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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I disagree, I used to think this. Then I got to really study it and found that Jesus was talking about all the ways people respond to the gospel. Thus I changed my View.
Where did you "find" that idea? It sure isn't in the text. It is a simple parable about fruit production.

Those who aren't saved can't produce any fruit.

Those who are saved can fail to produce fruit because of life's challenges.

Those who are saved and diligent to stay in the Word will produce fruit.

Jesus did not say they produced fruit here and then got out of fellowship and stopped producing fruit. He said it never produced fruit. Yes it is fruit of the spirit. Because the Spirit was involved
I never said what Jesus did not say. I said the whole parable was about fruit production, not salvation.

Those who think "fruit" refers to salvation, they are sorely mistaken.

The last one produced fruit of the spirit. Because it had the spirit.
There is nothing here about the Holy Spirit. It's a parable. And producing fruit (deeds). Only believers can produce fruit (deeds).

There are many believers who don't produce fruit. James made that clear in ch 2.
 

Magenta

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Your accusation against me as "speaking without scripture" is false. Everything I think and say is based on scripture.
Everything you think and say is not based on Scripture. For instance, saying Adam and Eve ate an apple from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; you have repeated that one so many times it would be difficult to count, and it is not Biblical or based on Scripture at all.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Where did you "find" that idea? It sure isn't in the text. It is a simple parable about fruit production.

Those who aren't saved can't produce any fruit.

Those who are saved can fail to produce fruit because of life's challenges.

Those who are saved and diligent to stay in the Word will produce fruit.
Because anyone who is saved will produce fruit. Not sure why you think they may not.


I never said what Jesus did not say. I said the whole parable was about fruit production, not salvation.

Those who think "fruit" refers to salvation, they are sorely mistaken.
And I disagree, I think it is more than that. Remember the last example. Not everyone produced the same amount of fruit. This is true of all believers as a group.


There is nothing here about the Holy Spirit. It's a parable. And producing fruit (deeds). Only believers can produce fruit (deeds).

There are many believers who don't produce fruit. James made that clear in ch 2.
The seed is the gospel.

2 James said people who CLAIM to have faith but had no works. had a dead faith, He then asked if that faith could save them.

How can a non existant faith save someone? James did not say they were saved. He said they were not saved They were hearers only not doers.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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Because anyone who is saved will produce fruit. Not sure why you think they may not.
Jesus gave the reasons why believers may not produce fruit. But, before I explain that, where do you find the verses that fruit production is a guaranteed action of believers?

Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Here, Luke clearly states that they believe. The phrase "for a while" is immaterial, because Scripture does not address length of time as necessary for salvation.

For soil 2, when tested/tempted, they lose faith. To "fall away" here refers to falling away from their faith. Not salvation.

8:14 - The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.

For soil 3 it was life's worries, riches and pleasures that distracted them from producing fruit. iow, the 'details of life'.

And I disagree, I think it is more than that.
You are free to disagree. But "fruit" here refers to deeds, just as it does in John 15.

Remember the last example. Not everyone produced the same amount of fruit. This is true of all believers as a group.
Yes.

The seed is the gospel.

2 James said people who CLAIM to have faith but had no works. had a dead faith, He then asked if that faith could save them.
The word 'sozo' or "save" is a Greek word without theological meaning. It simply means to rescue or deliver from some danger. Just like in the English. Unfortunately believers make the mistake of applying theology every time they see "save". They think of soul salvation. More than half of the uses of "save" in both the OT and NT refer to temporal dangers. Not eternal.

So, what is James saying about saving in v.14? Looking carefully at v.1-13 we see a pattern of hypocrisy. What is that? Saying one thing but doing something contrary to that.

I know many people will then conclude that "claiming to have faith" but not really having it will result in not having deeds, or something like that. But James didnt say that.

He summarizes his point in v.18.

But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

But first, a correction. With the quote marks where they are, the second sentence doesn't make sense. The "someone" said "I have works". So the words "I will show you my faith by my works" also is attributed to the "someone".

iow, the "someone" says both sentences. That's the only way the verse makes sense.

So, James' point is that the only way to demonstrate your faith is by works/deeds.

And James gave an example in v.15,16.

15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?

The "one of you" refers to a believer among the group he was writing to. If they act like this, they are NOT demonstrating their faith to the hungry and cold believers.

We find the same principle in 1 John 3:18 - Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.

So, James wants believers to demonstrate their faith to others by deeds, not by lip service. Because lip service without deeds/works is worthless. Just as James said:

17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. The word 'dead' here is used figuratively, as in unproductive.
20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Same point, faith without works is useless in demonstrating your faith to others.

How can a non existant faith save someone?
That's not what James was saying.

James did not say they were saved. He said they were not saved
He said neither. His topic wasn't even about salvation. It was about fruit production to demonstrate one's faith to others.

They were hearers only not doers.
Correct. But they were still believers. There are many believers who aren't doers. For a lot of reasons. Like the ones Jesus gave in the parable of the soils.

So, again, please provide the best verse that says that all believers will produce fruit.
 

GRACE_ambassador

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Feb 22, 2021
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I believe scripture, not how man changes scripture.
Yep, Blik, my Precious friend = TOTALLY agree with you! Good fellowship, eh?

So, Concerning: your "idea that we cannot choose to walk away from
the Lord if we once became His forgiven, saved person," more questions:

(1) "The LORD Knoweth them that Are HIS!..." (2_Timothy_2:19 KJB!)

a) HOW LONG Has "The LORD KNOWN them That Are HIS Own"?
b) Hint: God's UNchangeable Scriptures in Ephesians_1:4-6 KJB!
c) Since THESE "Are UNchangeable," {as WE BOTH believe}, Then, is​
not "walking away from the Lord if we once became His forgiven,​
saved person" = man's Change?

(2) For those who are LOST, Exactly where is God's UNchangeable
Scripture of HOW LONG "HE KNEW them," Before
they "walked away/
/became LOST"?........................Hint: Matthew_7:21-23 KJB!)

(3) Conclusion:

Thus, the doctrine of "Christ ONCE {Always?} knew one forgiven
And Saved, And, Then when they
walked away, He Did NOT [NEVER knew?]
know them Any Longer, and they Became LOST," sounds Exactly Like:

"man CHANGING" God's Pure And HOLY Scripture, Correct, Blik, Precious friend?

Be Blessed!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Jesus gave the reasons why believers may not produce fruit. But, before I explain that, where do you find the verses that fruit production is a guaranteed action of believers?

Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Here, Luke clearly states that they believe. The phrase "for a while" is immaterial, because Scripture does not address length of time as necessary for salvation.

For soil 2, when tested/tempted, they lose faith. To "fall away" here refers to falling away from their faith. Not salvation.

8:14 - The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.

For soil 3 it was life's worries, riches and pleasures that distracted them from producing fruit. iow, the 'details of life'.


You are free to disagree. But "fruit" here refers to deeds, just as it does in John 15.


Yes.


The word 'sozo' or "save" is a Greek word without theological meaning. It simply means to rescue or deliver from some danger. Just like in the English. Unfortunately believers make the mistake of applying theology every time they see "save". They think of soul salvation. More than half of the uses of "save" in both the OT and NT refer to temporal dangers. Not eternal.

So, what is James saying about saving in v.14? Looking carefully at v.1-13 we see a pattern of hypocrisy. What is that? Saying one thing but doing something contrary to that.

I know many people will then conclude that "claiming to have faith" but not really having it will result in not having deeds, or something like that. But James didnt say that.

He summarizes his point in v.18.

But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

But first, a correction. With the quote marks where they are, the second sentence doesn't make sense. The "someone" said "I have works". So the words "I will show you my faith by my works" also is attributed to the "someone".

iow, the "someone" says both sentences. That's the only way the verse makes sense.

So, James' point is that the only way to demonstrate your faith is by works/deeds.

And James gave an example in v.15,16.

15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?

The "one of you" refers to a believer among the group he was writing to. If they act like this, they are NOT demonstrating their faith to the hungry and cold believers.

We find the same principle in 1 John 3:18 - Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.

So, James wants believers to demonstrate their faith to others by deeds, not by lip service. Because lip service without deeds/works is worthless. Just as James said:

17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. The word 'dead' here is used figuratively, as in unproductive.
20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Same point, faith without works is useless in demonstrating your faith to others.


That's not what James was saying.


He said neither. His topic wasn't even about salvation. It was about fruit production to demonstrate one's faith to others.


Correct. But they were still believers. There are many believers who aren't doers. For a lot of reasons. Like the ones Jesus gave in the parable of the soils.

So, again, please provide the best verse that says that all believers will produce fruit.
Sorry, I have been very busy and do not have time to answer everything at least right now. I also found out my adopted son passed away last night

Please answer to me how a person can have a dead nonexistant faith (mere belief) and be saved?

Paul said we are saved by faith, Not mere belief and he made it clear in eph 2; 10 that saved people will work the works they were crated (saved to do)

We also see in hebrews the faith hall of fame. One thing is clear, People who had faith had works

True faith works. Don't tell me you have faith in someone, yet NEVER do a word they say That is what James was saying.

The people in james 2 were hearers not doers. He called these fake believers out as having a dead faith, Because if they had true saving faith they would not just be hearers, they would also be doers (not perfect. But you would see a change in their life)

Anyway just asking Not trying to be argumentative