Gods will vs mans free will

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Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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Absolutely false. Wrong again buddy.

UNFALLEN Adam and Eve had the free will to make bad/wrong decisions.
Decisions that led to their "death" aka separation from God.

FALLEN Adam and Eve had the free will to make good/right decisions.
Decisions that led to "life" aka "salvation" aka "reconciliation" aka "renewed fellowship" with God.
You're tone deaf, aren't you? A&E were the only human beings to truly have "free will" because they were created "very good"; and therefore, were free FROM all evil influences and a sin nature, thereby having no excuse to not freely choose to trust and obey God. But this is not so with Adam's progeny. Adam's sons and daughters come into this world as spiritual stillborns, having no spiritual ability to choose contrary to their sinful nature -- to choose to become something they are not, e.g. righteous.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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You're tone deaf, aren't you? A&E were the only human beings to truly have "free will" because they were created "very good"; and therefore, were free FROM all evil influences and a sin nature
Absolutely false backed up with bafflegab.

Eve was UNFALLEN when she was seduced by the lies of Satan.
Adam was UNFALLEN when he made the FREE WILL DECISION to eat from the tree of death.
Satan was created UNFALLEN then he CHOSE to rebel.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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So, how long have you been worshiping this Chronister god of yours? I'm not surprised at all that you would support your heresies with extra-biblical works.

I chuckled reading though your bullet points, especially this one:

"Nothing Is Impossible? Then can the notion of Total Inability be right?
Stephen A. Chronister"

This guy can't be serious, can he, to ask such a ridiculous question? Logically, the two ideas are not mutually exclusive. Of course, Total Inability can be right! Aren't the physically dead totally unable to function in the physical world? And, yet, one day Jesus is going to raise the physical dead -- the goats will be condemned for all eternity and the sheep will dwell with God all eternity -- all because God also raised his sheep from their spiritual tombs to give them the ability to believe.
Oh I am sure that you will suffer plenty of sleepless nights now that these lectures have been posted.
I, on the other hand, will be sleeping like a baby tonight.

The inmates at the Calvinist prison now have the keys to their freedom.
So good luck trying to round up and hogtie all of the escapees who CHOOSE to escape.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
802
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Oh but the Calvinist say that this salvific indwelling only happens after Pentecost. What did you do switch teams?

The fact is this. ANYBODY can choose to believe when GOD CALLS. Anybody. And He is always calling.
Anybody can believe and enter into the covenant of life and peace.
Its FREELY available, and OPEN to anybody.

Whether it is righteous Abraham or doomed Canaanites or wretched Ninevites or a thief on a cross.

Gal 3:6
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Jon 3:5
So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.

Hear the epilogue to the entire Bible. THIS is the sum and total of the salvation message.

Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him ***take*** the water of life freely.
And by their(calvies) logic....... There can not be a false believer. Nobody can fake it. The natural man cannot fake something they are totally blind and deaf to. So blessed I dumped reformed theology!
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
802
312
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Hi cv5,

Thanks for an overview of what you believe, but i was actually looking for an answer to the question ' what is Calvinism'.

I can only assume you actually don't know. Sometimes it is wise not to argue against or make accusations about something to which you don't know anything about. Have a blessed day.
@cv5 summed it up quite well. I went to a reformed church for many years. there are "word salad" differences in many but in the end...........they are ALL hyper Calvinist . Look up Johnny Piper, my old church worshiped his theology. That will give you a good idea of the Calvinist and their theology.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
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I know exactly what Calvinism teaches.
After reading your post I would strongly disagree with your self assesment. You don't know what Calvinism is or teaches.

You said:
So I advise you to go pick up your own manna and find out.
It could take years.

I have spent years reading the reformers and reformed theology. Am I an expert? Far from it, yet, when reading your posts, I perceive that you do not know what reformed theology teaches.

Anyhow it's been an interesting exchange, dissappointing, but interesting nonetheless. stay blessed cv5.
________________________________________
If you (or anyone else) would like to learn what reformed theology is all about here are two book recommendations. These are easy to read books. And after reading and you still disagree, atleast you will be more informed and not making false claims.

1. What is Reformed Theology - understanding the Basics (R C Sproul)

2. The Doctrines of Grace - Rediscovering the Evangelical Gosoel (James Montgomery Boice and Philip Graham Ryken)

Some other recommendations:

Introducing Covenant Theology (Michael Horton)

And if your really into your reading you could go for:

Institutes of the Christian religion (translated from the french edition 1541(in contemporary english)) - John Calvin. NB. this one of Calvins early editions, but great as it is in modern english.



If you were to ask me to pick just one book as a primer or even a refresh the go with Sprouls, what is reformed theology. Hortons intro to covenant theology a close second although not quite as easy to grasp.

with that said we can say this to each other.

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (1 Cor 13:14)
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
802
312
63
Hi cv5,

Interesting comments you make, is it really true... Wow.. Now you have me intrigued.

These comments caught my eye:-

Calvinism -

"accuse God of being the author of evil, the origin of evil, the cause of evil."

" espouses that humans are soulless mindless robots"

And eapexially this claim you have made :-

"Calvinism teaches that God is an all-powerful cosmic tyrant"

I've never heard a calvinist say those things, can you provide references? Are you being honest in presenting what Calvinism is and what you have said it teaches?
This is why in his post earlier, he said, "It may take years." He is spot on with his assessment above. If you sit in reformed theology and don't bite hook,line and sinker and parse out their word salads.......you will come to these conclusions about Calvinism.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,554
29,796
113
So, how long have you been worshiping this Chronister god of yours? I'm not surprised at all that you would support your heresies with extra-biblical works.

I chuckled reading though your bullet points, especially this one:

"Nothing Is Impossible? Then can the notion of Total Inability be right?
Stephen A. Chronister"

This guy can't be serious, can he, to ask such a ridiculous question? Logically, the two ideas are not mutually exclusive. Of course, Total Inability can be right! Aren't the physically dead totally unable to function in the physical world? And, yet, one day Jesus is going to raise the physical dead -- the goats will be condemned for all eternity and the sheep will dwell with God all eternity -- all because God also raised his sheep from their spiritual tombs to give them the ability to believe.
So weird that people take the "with man it is impossible" to mean that with man it is possible.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
802
312
63
You're tone deaf, aren't you? A&E were the only human beings to truly have "free will" because they were created "very good"; and therefore, were free FROM all evil influences and a sin nature, thereby having no excuse to not freely choose to trust and obey God. But this is not so with Adam's progeny. Adam's sons and daughters come into this world as spiritual stillborns, having no spiritual ability to choose contrary to their sinful nature -- to choose to become something they are not, e.g. righteous.
Which makes Absolutely no sense. They sinned. So they were influenced by evil and were sinners. So how did they Keep their "freewill" to be saved? They were in the EXACT same boat we are in for their salvation.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,554
29,796
113
Hi cv5,

Interesting comments you make, is it really true... Wow.. Now you have me intrigued.

These comments caught my eye:-

Calvinism -

"accuse God of being the author of evil, the origin of evil, the cause of evil."

" espouses that humans are soulless mindless robots"

And eapexially this claim you have made :-

"Calvinism teaches that God is an all-powerful cosmic tyrant"

I've never heard a calvinist say those things, can you provide references? Are you being honest in presenting what Calvinism is and what you have said it teaches?
He also says God is a rapist and kidnaps people against their will, being a tyrant, and that God's
offer of repentance is fraudulent... apparently because God has the audacity to act unilaterally.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,554
29,796
113
Which makes Absolutely no sense. They sinned. So they were influenced by evil and were sinners. So how
did they Keep their "freewill" to be saved? They were in the EXACT same boat we are in for their salvation.
Adam and Eve were of the natural world and I agree: they were in as much need of being born again as we
start out being. One difference I see is that they became children of wrath, whereas that is our starting point.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
113
He also says God is a rapist and kidnaps people against their will, being a tyrant, and that God's
offer of repentance is fraudulent... apparently because God has the audacity to act unilaterally.

Hi Magenta,

Its mind boggling how people think and sad.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,554
29,796
113
All "calvinism" is awful ..... whether the lite version, regeneration before faith, or people cannot understand or believe the Gospel and God chooses who to enlighten while leaving others in their sin to the logical end of "calvinism" that God assigns people to perdition before they are born.

Romans 9:19-21 One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?” Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,986
2,314
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This is why in his post earlier, he said, "It may take years." He is spot on with his assessment above. If you sit in reformed theology and don't bite hook,line and sinker and parse out their word salads.......you will come to these conclusions about Calvinism.
Yes stripped of its grand rhetoric it is ultimately a harmful doctrine about God and to people.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,588
297
83
Absolutely false backed up with bafflegab.

Eve was UNFALLEN when she was seduced by the lies of Satan.
Adam was UNFALLEN when he made the FREE WILL DECISION to eat from the tree of death.
Satan was created UNFALLEN then he CHOSE to rebel.
Wow! You are so filled with hate for the truth that it has blinded your eyes so that you can't read what people say. Did I not say earlier that A&E were created VERY GOOD and had no sin nature to hinder them from making the right choice; and therefore were free FROM all evil influences? Did Jesus ever teach anywhere that Adam's progeny are good? I seem to recall him saying that that no one but God alone is good! So what does that make fallen man today?
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,986
2,314
113
Hi Magenta,

Its mind boggling how people think and sad.

this is sad....

In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace.

To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves.

He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives. Even in the case of the "hardening" of the sinners' already recalcitrant hearts, God does not, as Luther stated, "work evil in us (for hardening is working evil) by creating fresh evil in us."
https://www.the-highway.com/DoublePredestination_Sproul.html
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,554
29,796
113
Hi Magenta,

Its mind boggling how people think and sad.
Hello, Phil! So lovely to see you being active again... I do hope you are well.

It does seem strange that so much wool gathering is done in the name of the cause of defending free will,
which is not taught in the Bible. Those who defend free will are often totally hypocritical because they cannot
supply one verse in defence of their position while demanding verse after verse from those with whom they
disagree, who supply a multitude of verses, which they deny. I have shown a number of times how John 12 makes
plain free will is nowhere in sight, but nobody responds to this. That is, nobody that I see, for I do have some
people on ignore. I find their lack of honesty and anti-Biblical rants and rhetoric quite repulsive.



John 12:38b-40“Lord, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord
been revealed?” For this reason they were unable to believe. For again, Isaiah says: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they cannot see with their eyes, and understand with their hearts, and turn, and I would heal them.”
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,588
297
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Which makes Absolutely no sense. They sinned. So they were influenced by evil and were sinners. So how did they Keep their "freewill" to be saved? They were in the EXACT same boat we are in for their salvation.
Eve was influenced from without by the evil one but not from within her own nature. (Conversely all her offspring come into this world influenced by their evil nature, by the evil one and the world But Adam was not influenced from without; for the devil did not tempt him. This is what made his transgression so egregious and why Adam has the very dubious distinction of being contrasted with Christ in the scriptures. There is nothing ever positive said about Adam in the bible.

The only place in the bible where a positive statement about man's spiritual condition is stated is right after creation of our first parents. God created them "very good". You will be very hard pressed to find this kind of statement about mankind after the Fall.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
802
312
63
Adam and Eve were of the natural world and I agree: they were in as much need of being born again as we
start out being. One difference I see is that they became children of wrath, whereas that is our starting point.
Adam and Eve were fallen creatures in need of salvation.

We are fallen creatures in need of salvation.

How many ways can man be saved?

We have to do exactly the same thing Adam and Eve had to do to be saved............Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and YOU shall be saved.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,588
297
83
this is sad....

In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace.

To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves.

He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives. Even in the case of the "hardening" of the sinners' already recalcitrant hearts, God does not, as Luther stated, "work evil in us (for hardening is working evil) by creating fresh evil in us."
https://www.the-highway.com/DoublePredestination_Sproul.html
And do you have a problem with what I bolded above?

And as you rightly said, God chooses to leave many to their own evil devices. God doesn't have to work evil in anyone. Man's heart naturally overflows with evil. Man drinks evil like water (Job 15:16). That's how natural it is to all in Adam.