Greek/Hebrew vs. KJV Reading of....

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Feb 28, 2016
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#21
Is the KJV from anything other than the Masochistic Text?
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the studies that we have done points to the fact that Jesus quotes from the Septuagint
about 90% of the time, and the Masoretic 10%.
 

DudleyDorite

Active member
Aug 7, 2018
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#22
Matthew 24 passage is a Jewish passage concerning the great tribulation where one must endure to the end to be saved into the Millennial reign of Christ. The church is caught up by that time.

Paul speaks in Romans 13 as a matter of fact. Each passing day is a time to awake and get to work for the Lord for salvation is nearer today than it was yesterday. The two passages have nothing to do with the other.
Mathew 24 is NOT a Jewish passage. The entire chapter is Christ' response to these questions...
1. WHEN shall these things be, i.e. one stone upon another.
2. WHAT shall be the sign of your coming.
3. And the consummation of the age.
Mathew 24 is NOT only for the Jewish nation because the consummation of the age is for everyone.

There is still one stone upon another...

147838-004-0E60F888.jpg
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#23
I would like for Sister Angela, or any of the others here who are versed in the Greek/Hebrew Texts to comment on two Scriptures that I have been thinking of for a couple of days now.

Matthew 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Romans 13:11) And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

To me, these two appear to be related, but I am not sure if that would hold true when reading them in the original Texts. I am also wondering if in the Greek/Hebrew Texts if the word "salvation" used may have a meaning closer to "reward?"

Thanks......ahead of time.....

God bless
I would suggest looking at 1 Peter 1:9-11 as to the work of Christ as a labor of His love that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure, as a living hope that goes beyond human hope. It cannot disappoint us.

From the moment we are given the faith of Christ, to believe God we are filled with the Holy Spirit. In effect we are daily receiving the end of our new faith again as a living hope our new incorruptible bodies .All die not receiving.(Hebrews 11:39)

Receiving "the end" of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.! Peter1:9-11

Having the confidence of Christ who dwells in the believer. He promises if he has begun the good work of salvation in us he will finish it to the end... the receiving of our new incorruptible bodies Philippians 1:6
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
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#24
Mathew 24 is NOT a Jewish passage. The entire chapter is Christ' response to these questions...
1. WHEN shall these things be, i.e. one stone upon another.
2. WHAT shall be the sign of your coming.
3. And the consummation of the age.
Mathew 24 is NOT only for the Jewish nation because the consummation of the age is for everyone.

There is still one stone upon another...

View attachment 186412
I would think when the veil was rent not a stone remained . literal stones yes but they lost their significance when Christ gave up the Spirit and it return to the father of gave it .

I think as Christians we would be concerned about the lively stones that make up the spiritual houses of God the church . And not like the idol worshippers hoping Christ will come in the flesh, again .as if God was a man as us to begin with. The promise was one demonstration of the flesh that could not profit.

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet "now henceforth" know we him no more.Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.2 Corinthians 5:16-17
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
12,647
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#25
Mathew 24 is NOT a Jewish passage. The entire chapter is Christ' response to these questions...
1. WHEN shall these things be, i.e. one stone upon another.
2. WHAT shall be the sign of your coming.
3. And the consummation of the age.
Mathew 24 is NOT only for the Jewish nation because the consummation of the age is for everyone.

There is still one stone upon another...

View attachment 186412
Well, I won't be around, for the body of Christ will already be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
 

DudleyDorite

Active member
Aug 7, 2018
329
110
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#26
Well, I won't be around, for the body of Christ will already be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
We are told repeatedly that we as Christian's will suffer tribulation. Want some scripture references? We are told we are to suffer tribulation until the time of Jacob's trouble. You're wishful thinking will not prevent you from enduring tribulation. Something for you to consider...

Did God remove Daniel from the lions den? Or did he save him THROUGH it?
Did God remove the three Hebrew children from the fiery furnace? Or did he save them through it?
Did God remove Job from his troubles? Or did he save him through them?
Did God remove Noah and his family from the flood? Or did he save them through it?
 
L

LPT

Guest
#27
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the studies that we have done points to the fact that Jesus quotes from the Septuagint
about 90% of the time, and the Masoretic 10%.
The studies I've seen assume that's a Catholic dogma, surely in the synagogues LXX wasn't used in place of the Torah.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
12,647
2,518
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#28
We are told repeatedly that we as Christian's will suffer tribulation. Want some scripture references? We are told we are to suffer tribulation until the time of Jacob's trouble. You're wishful thinking will not prevent you from enduring tribulation. Something for you to consider...

Did God remove Daniel from the lions den? Or did he save him THROUGH it?
Did God remove the three Hebrew children from the fiery furnace? Or did he save them through it?
Did God remove Job from his troubles? Or did he save him through them?
Did God remove Noah and his family from the flood? Or did he save them through it?
Day to day tribulation, yes, but not the great tribulation of Jacob's trouble which is what Matt. 24 and 25 is about. Btw, none of those you listed were part of the body of Christ.
 

DudleyDorite

Active member
Aug 7, 2018
329
110
28
#29
Day to day tribulation, yes, but not the great tribulation of Jacob's trouble which is what Matt. 24 and 25 is about. Btw, none of those you listed were part of the body of Christ.
Day to day tribulation, yes, but not the great tribulation of Jacob's trouble which is what Matt. 24 and 25 is about. Btw, none of those you listed were part of the body of Christ.
What does it matter that they have nothing to do with the body of Christ. It has to do with how God deals with people going through tribulation. I've never known a pre-tribber to change their mind but for the benefit of others...

In the following passage we are told to suffer tribulation up to the time when Christ shall come to be glorified in His saints. Will you accept it?

That no man should be moved by these afflictions; for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
27,971
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#30
...........a life of it's own........

:)

But, I am actually enjoying some of the comments, and Scriptural references
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
6,104
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#31
They are totally related, when Paul wrote "now is our salvation nearer than when we believed' he was speaking of salvation from the "wrath to come" as John the Baptist proclaimed.

Paul most likely had Jesus' statement in mind:

Luke 21:20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

Luke 21:28 “But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

All the Greek "saving/redemption" words are similarly based:

G4991 soteria so-tay-ree'-ah

feminine of a derivative of G4990 as (properly, abstract) noun;

rescue or safety (physically or morally).
------------------------------------------------
G4990 soter so-tare'

from G4982;

a deliverer, i.e. God or Christ.
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G4982 sozo sode'-zo

from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saos, "safe");

to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively).
-------------------------------------------------

We know that Jerusalem was surround by armies in the war of 66-70 AD, Jesus is stating at that time their redemption/salvation was drawing near. Paul is telling them in Romans that it was nearer than when they first believed.

The redemption/salvation that Paul spoke of is not salvation unto eternal life as they already had that. Neither was Jesus claiming that when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies in 66-70AD were they to receive eternal life.

"he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" is likely related to enduring in faith/persecutions. If they fell away the promise of being delivered from the wrath to come of John the Baptist would be lost as they would most likely dismiss the signs Jesus spoke of in Luke 21.

And neither would they heed the warnings of the apostles:

1 Pet 4:7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.

lol Paul has a scripture in mind in Romans that he got from the book of Luke that was written after Romans,,,lol i'll eat popcorn and watch...
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#32
lol Paul has a scripture in mind in Romans that he got from the book of Luke that was written after Romans,,,lol i'll eat popcorn and watch...
Do you think that Paul was excluded from the promise that Jesus made to the apostles sosandso?

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

And it's quite possible Luke relayed Jesus' message to Paul

More reading and less popcorning recommended..

BigSmile.gif
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
27,971
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#33
What John Gill said about Romans 13:11

for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed;
by which is meant, not temporal salvation, or a deliverance from the persecution the saints endured in Judea, from their own countrymen, by the departure of them from Jerusalem, a little before its destruction, by the destruction of that city, and the peaceful times of Vespasian; but a spiritual and eternal salvation: not Christ the author of it, who was come to effect it; nor that itself, as obtained, which was now done, finished, and completed; nor the application of it to their souls, which also had been made; but the consummate enjoyment of it in heaven, the salvation of their souls at death, and both of soul and body at the resurrection; consisting in a freedom from every evil, and in a full possession of all that is good and glorious: this is brought nearer to the saints, to their sight and view, as their faith grows and increases; and they are nearer the enjoyment of that than when they first believed; and which is a strong reason why a sluggish, slothful frame should not be indulged; what, sleep, and heaven so near at hand! just at their Father's house, ready to enter into the joy of their Lord, into his everlasting kingdom and glory, and yet asleep!
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
27,971
5,175
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#34
What Gill said about Matthew 24:13

But he that shall endure to the end
In the profession of faith in Christ, notwithstanding the violent persecutions of wicked men; and in the pure and incorrupt doctrines of the Gospel, whilst many are deceived by the false teachers that shall arise; and in holiness of life and conversation, amidst all the impurities of the age; and shall patiently bear all afflictions, to the end of his life, or to the end of sorrows, of which the above mentioned were the beginning:

the same shall be saved;
with a temporal salvation, when Jerusalem, and the unbelieving inhabitants of it shall be destroyed: for those that believed in Christ, many of them, through persecution, were obliged to remove from thence; and others, by a voice from heaven, were bid to go out of it, as they did; and removed to Pella, a village a little beyond Jordan F21, and so were preserved from the general calamity; and also with an everlasting salvation, which is the case of all that persevere to the end, as all true believers in Christ will.


Now, I do not agree with everything Gill writes, but, in this instance, I believe his assessment of the two Scriptures are in line with what I believed. However the Apostle came to his reasoning written in Romans, it surely mirrors what Jesus spoke in Matthew (in my opinion).

Thanks guys............
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#35
John Gill is wrong as were many protestants of that time period.

"What John Gill said about Romans 13:11"

What he said about Rom 13:12 is correct to a degree but then he contradicts himself by apportioning the day to the future:

the day is at hand;
not the Gospel day, for that was already come; nor the day of grace, and spiritual light and comfort to their souls, for that also had taken place; nor the latter day glory, which then was at a distance; rather the approaching day of deliverance from present persecutions; but it is much better to understand it of the everlasting day of glory,


(Rom 13:12 The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.

What we have here is a kind of double speak rather than letting the scripture speak for itself we have injections of Gills own presuppositions into Paul's writings.

Luke 21:28 “But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Jesus stated that their redemption was near when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies in the war of 66-70 AD, so to suggest that "the day" Paul is speaking of is in the far off future or "the everlasting day of glory" is a complete lack of acknowledgment of audience relevance.

There is no mention by Paul of "the everlasting day of glory" - Paul stated "the day is near" not 2000 years and counting into the future.




 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#36
The Tanakh contains all the prophecies concerning Jesus Christ. It is originally written primarily in Hebrew with Ezra and half of Daniel in Aramaic.

The gospel was first given to Abraham and then the Hebrews on the Munt.

Intellectuals largely agree with each other that what we call the New Testament was written originally in Greek.

What strikes me very odd and truly misunderstood by so many is just one reality.......

The Gospel given to Abraham and the Hebrews is the same as given to we who believe, so how can it be dubbed a new covenant? Just a thought, not an argument.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
6,104
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#37
Do you think that Paul was excluded from the promise that Jesus made to the apostles sosandso?

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

And it's quite possible Luke relayed Jesus' message to Paul

More reading and less popcorning recommended..

View attachment 186488

lol, I believe that the 12 were hand picked and spoken to about that and that Paul.as he said was not taught by a man but received his message by revelation just like he said in Galatians and that Luke wrote the things that he/they surly believed and "received from eyewitnesses" like he said to Theophilus at the beginning of the book of Luke.

You think Luke relayed a message to Paul,,,,but just thinking about it well in Acts 7:58 there is a "young man named Saul" whom Paul confesses to be ,Acts 22:20 ....

Now Luke is a disciple who is a companion of Paul who as we know began to travel with Paul from Acts 16:10 onwards because he began to use first person pronouns (we,us) instead of 2nd or 3rd(they, them ect.).

Now so did Paul receive his message from Luke? popcorns good lest it's bunt...lol
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
684
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#38
Now so did Paul receive his message from Luke? popcorns good lest it's bunt...lol
Paul states himself that he rececived the gospel by no man but that has to be considered in context

When he stayed with Peter for 15 days what do you think they talked about - the price of kosher meat futures?

Gal 1:18 Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him fifteen days.

I've no doubt the sayings of Jesus were discussed, including the message in Luke about the surrounding of Jerusalem and the redemption that would be near in those events - where do you think Luke who was not an "ear" witness got those statements from?

rolleye0010.gif

Nice try soandso, poor logic though.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
8,876
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#39
I would like for Sister Angela, or any of the others here who are versed in the Greek/Hebrew Texts to comment on two Scriptures that I have been thinking of for a couple of days now.

Matthew 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Romans 13:11) And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

To me, these two appear to be related, but I am not sure if that would hold true when reading them in the original Texts. I am also wondering if in the Greek/Hebrew Texts if the word "salvation" used may have a meaning closer to "reward?"

Thanks......ahead of time.....

God bless
Well you have to read above and below the verses, to get a better context to the verse. There is a difference of parallel scriptures and application found in the: text, passage, sentence, paragraph, and chapter of a book and the whole bible.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
6,104
1,048
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#40
Paul states himself that he rececived the gospel by no man but that has to be considered in context

When he stayed with Peter for 15 days what do you think they talked about - the price of kosher meat futures?

Gal 1:18 Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him fifteen days.

I've no doubt the sayings of Jesus were discussed, including the message in Luke about the surrounding of Jerusalem and the redemption that would be near in those events - where do you think Luke who was not an "ear" witness got those statements from?

View attachment 186502

Nice try soandso, poor logic though.

lol,"nice try",,,you always think I'm trying something,lol

http://www.generationword.com/bible_school_notes/Timeline of Acts.htm just follow the chronological order of events,,lol thats why I ask you the things I ask. And it's why I pointed out that in Matthew 24:3 that they could not have been asking Jesus about the signs of his "second" coming...

Thats the thing you see you cant have Luke as the origin when the scriptures say he began to follow Paul in Acts 16:10,, It's putting the cart before the horse.

In Matthew 24:3 at a glance it seems as though the disciples ask Jesus about his "second coming"(sign of thy coming),,,but on the other hand after reading the four Gospels it is clear that Jesus did in fact tell them he was going to die and be in the grave 3 days and then ascend out of it but in the accounts it says that they "did not understand"...

After he was slain on the cross Mary tried to grab a hold of him and he told her that he had not yet ascended to the father. None of the apostles believed he was raised,they thought he was a spirit but everyone believes thats what they ask him about in Matthew 24:3,,,is the very thing the scriptures state they didn't understand.

I suppose it's the power of suggestion in that if everyone has said Matthew 24:3 is asking about the second coming signs for hundreds of years then it must be so right? In the scriptures though irregardless of what people say did the disciples understand Jesus when he told them what was about to take place or that they did not understand it? Did the scriptures say that Jesus told them that there were many things that they could not yet bare and that when the comforter that he spoke of was sent they would then know?

You see if the scriptures say that they didn't understand it,,,the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord at the time they ask him about the sign of his coming then in Matthew 24:3 they(did not understand it) and were not asking about his second coming but rather exactly what they ask "see the building,where is the sign of thy coming?" ,,,that is if those building were not standing how in the wold could this guy we think is the Messiah show those signs and fulfill the stuff we believe in our heads?


lol, It's the cart before the horse,,,how can they ask something they don't understand or believe?