Hard sayings

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
687
113
#1
There are a lot of things written in the bible, that IMO if we're honest, we'll admit that we really don't understand. Here's one that stumps me.

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13

Supposedly, Jesus said no man ascended to heaven except himself (who had not yet ascended to heaven), but he was on earth when he spoke this and not in heaven as the text says. Now did Jesus say this, or was this John speaking from his perspective after the resurrection? At some point in John 3, it is John's words and not Jesus' words, but it's not clear where that point is.

There's actually a textual variant in this verse. This is how it reads in some manuscripts

And no one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man. John 3:13

That removes the difficulty of Jesus being on earth and saying that he is in heaven.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,838
583
113
#2
There are a lot of things written in the bible, that IMO if we're honest, we'll admit that we really don't understand. Here's one that stumps me.
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13

Supposedly, Jesus said no man ascended to heaven except himself (who had not yet ascended to heaven), but he was on earth when he spoke this and not in heaven as the text says. Now did Jesus say this, or was this John speaking from his perspective after the resurrection? At some point in John 3, it is John's words and not Jesus' words, but it's not clear where that point is.

There's actually a textual variant in this verse. This is how it reads in some manuscripts
And no one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man. John 3:13

That removes the difficulty of Jesus being on earth and saying that he is in heaven.
Look at revelation 12.
That also is hard to understand how HE who was there from the beginning came forth into the world and was snatched up (right away) to GOD and HIS THRONE...

Another thing that seems hard to understand is this:
When HE said:

I came forth from GOD and into the world...AGAIN...I leave the world and go back to THE ONE who sent ME.

Again means a repeated process and And implies both subjects?
I came forth from GOD and Again I go to HIM
I came into the world and Again I leave the world.
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
687
113
#3
Look at revelation 12.
That also is hard to understand how HE who was there from the beginning came forth into the world and was snatched up (right away) to GOD and HIS THRONE...
I don't think Rev. 12 is referring to Jesus.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,838
583
113
#4
There are a lot of things written in the bible, that IMO if we're honest, we'll admit that we really don't understand. Here's one that stumps me.
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13

Supposedly, Jesus said no man ascended to heaven except himself (who had not yet ascended to heaven), but he was on earth when he spoke this and not in heaven as the text says. Now did Jesus say this, or was this John speaking from his perspective after the resurrection? At some point in John 3, it is John's words and not Jesus' words, but it's not clear where that point is.

There's actually a textual variant in this verse. This is how it reads in some manuscripts
And no one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man. John 3:13

That removes the difficulty of Jesus being on earth and saying that he is in heaven.
Bu, I am sorry. To answer your question, which I did not do...I believe it is Jesus' testimony of HIMSELF...and I believe that John later also says the same thing when he says:

Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30He must increase, but I must decrease. 31He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. 32And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. 33He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. 34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. 36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,838
583
113
#5
I don't think Rev. 12 is referring to Jesus.
Oh, then who is born of woman and is snatched up to HIS THRONE?
I believe that this is the recap of the very story and plan of GOD from the beginning...which is why satan was angry with the children of flesh...and went out to deceive them...those who hold to the TESTIMONY of JESUS.

Please expound who this child could be other than CHRIST.

thanks
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,838
583
113
#6
This is what I am referring to and I believe that this to be a visual of the SON OF MAN...who is CHRIST....who is also the SON OF GOD born of THAT SEED, which is HEAVENLY. CHRIST is a visible image (vessel) of the invisible image of GOD (SPIRIT)...

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
687
113
#7
Oh, then who is born of woman and is snatched up to HIS THRONE?
I believe that this is the recap of the very story and plan of GOD from the beginning...which is why satan was angry with the children of flesh...and went out to deceive them...those who hold to the TESTIMONY of JESUS.

Please expound who this child could be other than CHRIST.
I think that is speaking of the body of Christ (or some part of it) at some point in time. Rev. 3:26-27 says that those who overcome will rule the nations with a rod of iron.
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
687
113
#8
Bu, I am sorry. To answer your question, which I did not do...I believe it is Jesus' testimony of HIMSELF...and I believe that John later also says the same thing when he says:
No reason to apologize. This thread is for anyone to post the hard sayings that stump them.
 

Word_Swordsman

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2014
1,666
100
48
#9
There are a lot of things written in the bible, that IMO if we're honest, we'll admit that we really don't understand. Here's one that stumps me.
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13

Supposedly, Jesus said no man ascended to heaven except himself (who had not yet ascended to heaven), but he was on earth when he spoke this and not in heaven as the text says. Now did Jesus say this, or was this John speaking from his perspective after the resurrection? At some point in John 3, it is John's words and not Jesus' words, but it's not clear where that point is.

There's actually a textual variant in this verse. This is how it reads in some manuscripts
And no one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man. John 3:13

That removes the difficulty of Jesus being on earth and saying that he is in heaven.
Jesus temporarily gave up his position (of the Son) in Heaven with the Father, was sent to earth to dwell among men. He was the first man to have ever ascended to Heaven after having first descended from Heaven to be born of a woman. Others had been taken from a natural man position on earth to Heaven before that, but none of them traveled both to and from Heaven.

Jesus was speaking that to Nicodemus.

Jesus had to have ascended twice in those last days with his disciples. The position of High Priest of the Jews was created after the Heavenly model, as was the tabernacle of Moses, even the sacrifice at that altar, and application of that blood, which was sprinkled over the ark of the covenant. After arising from death, hell and the grave, Mary encountered him in the garden.
John 20:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Jesus saith unto her,
Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Jesus warned her not to touch him, as commanded of old, so as not to defile the High Priest of the New Covenant, rather let him take some of his blood to the Heavenly altar before the Father, to finally satisfy him concerning the covenant. Like the earthly high priest, once that duty was finished, loved ones could once again touch the priest. That day Jesus was not found until evening when he walked in on the disciples (Jn 20:19).

That was Jesus' first ascension (after his first descent/"Advent" to be born a mortal man). He ascended then descended in that same day. He then remained teaching until ascending for the last time.
 

Utah

Banned
Dec 1, 2014
9,701
249
0
#10
HRFD, I know this isn't what you're talking about regarding Scripture that is difficult, but on a different level, had I been a disciple of Jesus and heard the following words at the time He spoke them, I probably would have walked away.

Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.

I literally thank God I understand this today.
 
Dec 10, 2015
494
14
0
#11
Everything said in the Scriptures is from the Holy Spirit. Its what the Holy Spirit says.

Are you implying that Jesus cannot tell us what will happen in the Future? When Jesus spoke He was speaking about the events that will happen in the Future.

No wonder you have such a hard time understanding the Scriptures if you cannot even understand this simple statement made by Jesus.

Also this verse John 3:13 proves Mary never was assumed into Heaven.

John 3:13
[SUP]13[/SUP]No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
 

Word_Swordsman

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2014
1,666
100
48
#12
I think that is speaking of the body of Christ (or some part of it) at some point in time. Rev. 3:26-27 says that those who overcome will rule the nations with a rod of iron.
According to God's promise to Abraham to save a remnant of Israel, after rapture of the Church before Rev 12, 12,000 babies born of each of Israel's tribes are raptured even as Satan plans to destroy the babies of Israel (the Woman giving birth to a whole group). Rev 12:5 is only about the Redeemed Church's chosen ones of Israel protected by God from Satan. As a group they were taken up to Heaven. Satan wanted them dead for the same reason Herod ordered all male children 2 and under to be slaughtered to prevent the coming King Jesus being born then usurping power to rule instead of Satan.

The first group taken to Heaven is the Church, the second is the 144 thousand of Israel, to return with Jesus to rule together with Jesus. Satan destroyed much of the Church group, but many were missed. All of that select group of Jews will go to Heaven undefiled and unharmed by Satan.

Then comes the brief war against Heaven itself by Satan and his fallen angels, and unleashnig of unimaginable horrors (tribulation) on the earth until Jesus returns.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,838
583
113
#13
I think that is speaking of the body of Christ (or some part of it) at some point in time. Rev. 3:26-27 says that those who overcome will rule the nations with a rod of iron.
Who has overcome and why have they but because of THE ONE who overcame for us.
Please review 1John 5.

The SON of MAN/THE SON of GOD is the FIRST and before all things so that HE alone should have the preeminence...this is even why HE had to descend so as to ascend so as to fill all things and so as to be over all things created...all flesh is under HIS AUTHORITY but HE alone is both the FOUNDATION and the HEAD of HIS BODY...and as such, is able to direct the "members (of which those who belong to HIM are) of HIS BODY as HE purposes...all for HIS GLORY and HIS GLORY alone...
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,838
583
113
#14
HE told us that in this world we would have trouble but to take heart for HE has overcome the world...
This is why HE forewarns HIS BODY to "overcome"...and "overcome' means to remain faithful and look and keep our eyes on HIM who is OUR HOPE of GLORY...and only because of HIM do we even have THIS HOPE...
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,838
583
113
#15
No reason to apologize. This thread is for anyone to post the hard sayings that stump them.
I am apologizing for not including that this hard saying was JESUS' TESTIMONY of HIMSELF and which also John Testified, which is why John said what he said in John 3

This was John's testimony of THE SON OF GOD/SON OF MAN:
Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30He must increase, but I must decrease. 31He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. 32And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. 33He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
 
Last edited:

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,838
583
113
#16
According to God's promise to Abraham to save a remnant of Israel, after rapture of the Church before Rev 12, 12,000 babies born of each of Israel's tribes are raptured even as Satan plans to destroy the babies of Israel (the Woman giving birth to a whole group). Rev 12:5 is only about the Redeemed Church's chosen ones of Israel protected by God from Satan. As a group they were taken up to Heaven. Satan wanted them dead for the same reason Herod ordered all male children 2 and under to be slaughtered to prevent the coming King Jesus being born then usurping power to rule instead of Satan.

The first group taken to Heaven is the Church, the second is the 144 thousand of Israel, to return with Jesus to rule together with Jesus. Satan destroyed much of the Church group, but many were missed. All of that select group of Jews will go to Heaven undefiled and unharmed by Satan.

Then comes the brief war against Heaven itself by Satan and his fallen angels, and unleashnig of unimaginable horrors (tribulation) on the earth until Jesus returns.
And they are all born of HIS SEED.
Regardless the first "batch" (sorry, for lack of a better word), that is THE CHURCH
and the second "batch", the Jewish Remnant?
Yes?

One "Olive Tree" yes?
One High Priest over the whole House and not limited only to the 12 tribes of Israel...because HE, as a High Priest is after the order/pattern of Melchizadek (who was simply a shadow forespeaking of THE SON), without genealogy...and because HE (THAT IS, CHRIST) is without genealogy, HE was always before all creation and able to serve all men...all nations...both the younger generational sons (gentile and jew believers who make up HIS BODY/HIS BRIDE/HIS CHURCH now) as well as the older generational sons (Jewish believers, the remnant who comes in last but will be first).
 
Apr 11, 2015
890
1
0
#17
Everything said in the Scriptures is from the Holy Spirit. Its what the Holy Spirit says.

Are you implying that Jesus cannot tell us what will happen in the Future? When Jesus spoke He was speaking about the events that will happen in the Future.

No wonder you have such a hard time understanding the Scriptures if you cannot even understand this simple statement made by Jesus.

Also this verse John 3:13 proves Mary never was assumed into Heaven.

John 3:13
[SUP]13[/SUP]No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

you are a fine one to talk about not understanding Scriptures and state that the holy Spirit says when in fact the HS says nothing of His own but only reveals what has been said - btw Jn.3:13 means under his own steam or power - Jesus ascended Mary was assumed - wincam
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,838
583
113
#18
you are a fine one to talk about not understanding Scriptures and state that the holy Spirit says when in fact the HS says nothing of His own but only reveals what has been said - btw Jn.3:13 means under his own steam or power - Jesus ascended Mary was assumed - wincam
AND GLORIFIES THE SON.

You are referring to John 16 yes?
HE will take from ME and give to you, and HE will not speak of HIMSELF but what HE hears and HE shall glorify ME (Paraphrased)

But you forgot the last part of what you were referring to which says that the HOLY SPIRIT will GLORIFY THE SON...
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,838
583
113
#19
John 16:
I (Jesus speaking to His Disciples) have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 16A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
 
Apr 11, 2015
890
1
0
#20
why this is hard to understand or misunderstood is because here it is meant no one under their own power or steam has or can ascend into heaven - only God can - only Jesus as God could or did ascend into heaven - even Mary did not ascend but was assumed - wincam