Have you believed the false grace message?

[garee]

I would like to make an observation. People appear to believe as one we are saved in Christ and as a fruit of this we walk inobedience to Christ.

We walk by faith (Christ’s) not after something we could perform.(reading the Bible, going to church,helping a neighbor in need gathering together with those who say they have been born again from above.

The apostate Jews required the fruit of their own works as a false sign that they had favor with God before they would believe. While the Greeks sought after the philosophies of this world as the wisdom thereof.

Both proved to be a stumbling block making the cross , the emblem of suffering without effect. . .

1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

There is discussion about how the fruit shows, what it is and how long it takes.But without the fruit, one could doubt anything happened.

Yes doubt is not the opposite of faith, unbelief is. (no faith) .

We walk(understand God) by that faith of Christ that works in us. It’s when He sees the fruit, or the blood used to represent the work of His Spirit working in us, as that not seen.. You could say when he sees the outcome of the work of His Spirit.

How Long? Well if he has begun the good work of salvation in us he promises he will work to perform it to the very end. His love is Long suffering or it could not be kind.

Exodus 12:13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

Not when they see the blood.

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

We do have the privilege to loving rebuke each other so that we do not share in each other’s guilt .But only God can see into the hearts of all men and work in it to give us His desires of a new heart and new spirit that will never die. God is able.(1Ki 8:39)

As we are informed in Job 23. Our God is of one mind and always does whatsoever His soul pleases. For He works in us to perform that which he appoints to His new creature, to both will and do His good pleasure as a imputed righteousness ,not of our own selves .lest any man boast in false pride. It is He who can make our new hearts soft. We can offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving but we cannot change the law in respect to the word grace(truth and mercy)and whose work of faith (Christ )which it is after..

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

For most of us our problem isn't sin. It's evil. The lust of the flesh also is being righteous on my own. Being good apart from God.

Like, " Thank God I am not a sinner like him!"

Yes...I agree. I don't understand the desire to grasp for a saved status, but apart from abiding...I don't even understand why the argument is necessary. It seems to me like a deal to cheat death, to say that I believe He died for me and that my sins are forgiven, and now, even if I don't abide in Him, walk apart from Him, I still have this saved status. It is mine now and even if I don't abide in Him, it is mine. This goes contrary to almost everything our Lord said. He IS the life, so not abiding in Him is to walk apart from that life. I really don't understand the argument or why it is necessary to even have it...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Abiding in Him, walking in the Spirit so you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, (like murdering men in your heart in anger, because no murderer will enter heaven). So if we abide in Him, we will not sin, we will be fruitful instead of cut off for bearing no fruit.

do we do this 24/7. Are their areas of our life we are not "abiding" while other areas we are?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

4 commands for the believer.....and it takes a lot of bible doctrine to operate in them or a lot of grace and knowledge to truly operate this way.

Do not grieve the Spirit.

Do not quench the Spirit.

Walk in the Spirit.

Be filled with the Spirit.

And how often do we do this?

Or should I say (since it seems to the the argument) How much are we "required" to do this, and what happens if we do not live up to that requirement?

 

[PeterJens]

So would you say that the point in which they got it wrong was that they tried to obey outwardly but kept their hearts from Him? That they didn't understand that He wanted their hearts? Like when Jesus said that anger in your heart is murder, they didn't understand inner purity of heart? They only obeyed outwardly and not clear into the heart?

Yes, the heart is everything.

What blind sides me is one simple reality. Two people can walk into the room with
the same beliefs, one speaking from the heart and the other the head.
To speak from the head is hard work, to speak from the heart is who they are.
But first off they appear to be the same, and it is not for us to discover either.

Now we defend ourselves a lot inside , and do not behave in ways we should.
Sometimes the light comes on and we get angry or cry and do not know why.
It is because something inside is hidden and unresolved. No one but ourselves
knows these things. People talk about masks, a front, behaving as expected.

It is easy to loose ourselves in this so the person we live as is not the same as
the person inside. Christ wants these two people to be one. And life is so much
easier this way. But without the cross, I do not think I would have understood this
or had a light at the end of the tunnel to walk towards. God is our Father, Jesus
our friend and brother. Amen.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG - this has never been an argument, it is an experience, God finding us.

When you find you love someone, you do not ask, do I love them or have I created
this love to prove I love them. Do I buy flowers or want to spend time with them
because I want to prove something is happening or it has happened?

Whatever you or I do, we are lost if we do not love Christ, and no one can imagine
or make up this love. You either do love Him or you do not. And I love Christ.

here we go again, Are you afraid peter? I asked you a simple question. Why is it you can never give a simple answer. if any answer at all?

You yell and scream people misunderstand you,, or slander you, Yet anytime they tru to understand, You never let them know.

again,

1. Can a believer (true) not do any works

2. Can a believer, who is saved, and has eternal life, If they stop doing works. lose salvation?

A simple...

No/No,
Yes/No,
Yes/Yes or
No/Yes

with a simple explanation of why you answered that way, will suffice..

It could help so much in clearing up any supposed misunderstanding,

 

[wsblind]

Yes...I agree. I don't understand the desire to grasp for a saved status, but apart from abiding...I don't even understand why the argument is necessary. It seems to me like a deal to cheat death, to say that I believe He died for me and that my sins are forgiven, and now, even if I don't abide in Him, walk apart from Him, I still have this saved status. It is mine now and even if I don't abide in Him, it is mine. This goes contrary to almost everything our Lord said. He IS the life, so not abiding in Him is to walk apart from that life. I really don't understand the argument or why it is necessary to even have it...

Because if we don't believe we are saved and eternally secure..........We are quenching the Spirit. We are not abiding in Him.

And if we are quenching the Spirit............We are not walking in the Spirit nor are we filled with Spirit. And we are failing to walk in His ways.

 

[PeterJens]

4 commands for the believer.....and it takes a lot of bible doctrine to operate in them or a lot of grace and knowledge to truly operate this way.

Do not grieve the Spirit.

Do not quench the Spirit.

Walk in the Spirit.

Be filled with the Spirit.

My impression of the Spirit is very gentle and desiring the best of a situation.
Everything is geared towards bringing blessing and encouragement, to heal,
restore, make complete His people.

It is easy to change this and miss His move.

 

[Bladerunner]

I think this is where the confusion comes in

One must define what "walk in his ways" means..

You ask for anybody....in one of your post...'"2 statements concerning waling in the ways of God are being promoted here on CC.

1. Repent and have faith in God (trust) and you will be saved, And since you are saved, you WILL walk in his ways.

2. Repent, Have faith in God, walk in his ways, and you will be saved


Both of these statements are not the same,, Who can tell the difference? and why?


"And since you are saved, you WILL walk in his ways." Being Saved by Grace NOT by Works!

"Repent, Have faith in God, walk in his ways, and you will be saved". Being Saved BY Grace plus Works........

 

[PeterJens]

Because if we don't believe we are saved and eternally secure..........We are quenching the Spirit. We are not abiding in Him.

And if we are quenching the Spirit............We are not walking in the Spirit nor are we filled with Spirit. And we are failing to walk in His ways.

I have never found this to be true. The Lord is not a respecter of doctrine, rather of
faith and love. I have seen people blessed tremendously yet go off the rails, because the
emotional affirmation was interpreted as doctrinal and life affirmation, when it was like meeting
you favourite uncle as a kid, and you were having so much fun. It is the relationship that brings
the blessing, and the flow, the structure makes it all possible.

 

[gb9]

here we go again, Are you afraid peter? I asked you a simple question. Why is it you can never give a simple answer. if any answer at all?

You yell and scream people misunderstand you,, or slander you, Yet anytime they tru to understand, You never let them know.

again,

1. Can a believer (true) not do any works

2. Can a believer, who is saved, and has eternal life, If they stop doing works. lose salvation?

A simple...

No/No,
Yes/No,
Yes/Yes or
No/Yes

with a simple explanation of why you answered that way, will suffice..

It could help so much in clearing up any supposed misunderstanding,

funny how some folks love to talk, and lecture, until someone asks them a question, then all of a sudden, they don't have a straight answer.

lots of words, but no answer.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

do we do this 24/7. Are their areas of our life we are not "abiding" while other areas we are?

Yes, of course I can only speak for myself, but yes, there are definitely areas of unbelief and areas where I am not walking in pure faith. And this brings me to work out my salvation with fear and trembling and causes me to see that the way to life is narrow and few find it. But it also causes me to see how patient He is and has been with me. And there is such great relief and peace to know that if I confess my sin of unbelief when He shows me these areas, He is merciful and forgives. And how wonderful that when He sees I am ready to bear more truth and shows me, and when I agree with Him about what I am doing, He changes my heart in those areas where I was not believing and abiding. The truth He shows me about it sets me free from the deception I was in but then, even more, I cry out to Him and He washes me. He causes me to walk uprightly. It's all too amazing...

 

[wsblind]

You ask for anybody....in one of your post...'"2 statements concerning waling in the ways of God are being promoted here on CC.

1. Repent and have faith in God (trust) and you will be saved, And since you are saved, you WILL walk in his ways.

2. Repent, Have faith in God, walk in his ways, and you will be saved


Both of these statements are not the same,, Who can tell the difference? and why?


"And since you are saved, you WILL walk in his ways." Being Saved NOT by Works!

"Repent, Have faith in God, walk in his ways, and you will be saved". Being Saved BY Works ........

I am going to get in trouble!

They are both saying that works saves. One just says that if you don't have works you were really not saved.

So both statement's ultimately rely on works.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Because if we don't believe we are saved and eternally secure..........We are quenching the Spirit. We are not abiding in Him.

And if we are quenching the Spirit............We are not walking in the Spirit nor are we filled with Spirit. And we are failing to walk in His ways.

I would say at times, if not all the time, we would be carnal, Because we would have to always focus on self. and wondering are we saved or not, and not Christ, and what he did for us so we can serve others.

whcih is where all the pride comes in.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have never found this to be true. The Lord is not a respecter of doctrine, rather of
faith and love. I have seen people blessed tremendously yet go off the rails, because the
emotional affirmation was interpreted as doctrinal and life affirmation, when it was like meeting
you favourite uncle as a kid, and you were having so much fun. It is the relationship that brings
the blessing, and the flow, the structure makes it all possible.

when will people realize our security in Christ is not a doctrine, it is a state of mind. It is biblical reality, it is a truth.

This is exactly what I think Ariel was trying to get to earlier.. We focus so much on DOCTRINES (like OSAS, baptism etc) we can't see beyond them,,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

funny how some folks love to talk, and lecture, until someone asks them a question, then all of a sudden, they don't have a straight answer.

lots of words, but no answer.

Usually goes to show who they are..

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

here we go again, Are you afraid peter? I asked you a simple question. Why is it you can never give a simple answer. if any answer at all?

You yell and scream people misunderstand you,, or slander you, Yet anytime they tru to understand, You never let them know.

again,

1. Can a believer (true) not do any works

2. Can a believer, who is saved, and has eternal life, If they stop doing works. lose salvation?

A simple...

No/No,
Yes/No,
Yes/Yes or
No/Yes

with a simple explanation of why you answered that way, will suffice..

It could help so much in clearing up any supposed misunderstanding,

You already know that he does not call abiding a work of the law, or works in the same way you view works. He views abiding as the only way for a branch to remain alive. So I don't understand why you keep asking him the same question when he does not view abiding as filthy rags. I don't get it...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, of course I can only speak for myself, but yes, there are definitely areas of unbelief and areas where I am not walking in pure faith. And this brings me to work out my salvation with fear and trembling and causes me to see that the way to life is narrow and few find it. But it also causes me to see how patient He is and has been with me. And there is such great relief and peace to know that if I confess my sin of unbelief when He shows me these areas, He is merciful and forgives. And how wonderful that when He sees I am ready to bear more truth and shows me, and when I agree with Him about what I am doing, He changes my heart in those areas where I was not believing and abiding. The truth He shows me about it sets me free from the deception I was in but then, even more, I cry out to Him and He washes me. He causes me to walk uprightly. It's all too amazing...

what about areas of your life your not ready to give up yet?

What happens then?

 

[PeterJens]

1. Can a believer (true) not do any works
2. Can a believer, who is saved, and has eternal life, If they stop doing works. lose salvation?

A believer is a believer, with or without works.
A believer is no longer a believer if they loose their faith.
A believer will always have changes and fruit in their life, because it is impossible to know
and love God without following Him. It is like saying can a boat float, or a bicycle ride down
a road, or a violin play a note. We are created to be in communion with God, to be one with
Him, to be Christ on earth.

EG - I know in your heart you will find another way to say nothing and spin it.
So what is the point of your efforts to convert me to your ways, as if I do not already
know them. I know my sharing from my heart means nothing to you, and you do not
know why. That is enough for me, my friend. God bless you, May Jesus heal you of
your burdens and bring light into your life, Amen.

 

[wsblind]

I would say at times, if not all the time, we would be carnal, Because we would have to always focus on self. and wondering are we saved or not, and not Christ, and what he did for us so we can serve others.

whcih is where all the pride comes in.

If someone can correct me?

We would be carnal ALL the time if we don't believe in eternal security. I just can't see it any other way.