Healing through the Son

[tourist]

I have not been healed of my severe anxiety.
Prayed many times and been prayed over.
Named it and claimed it but still have it.

At the age of 49 I have severe arthritis in both knees as a result of football.
In fact it ruined a professional football career.

Even had a Christian tell me God wrecked my knees because I trained on a Sunday morning (even though I went to the evening service which he never went to)

Now counsel me.

You were a professional football player? That's kind of impressive, apparently bad for the knees though.

I have had many episodes of anxiety as well in my life.

Personally, I don't believe that name & claim is scripturally sound because what is happening is a single or a few connected verses are claimed while ignoring the many supporting verses that provide context. You can have great faith that God will heal you but that healing may or may not happen in your lifetime.

My late wife suffered horribly from arthritis yet had a deep abiding faith that God would indeed heal her but only at the right time and place. She was ridiculed horribly by her family because they kept telling her that the reason she was not healed was because she had no faith which was entirely untrue.

Truly, they were the real sick ones for saying such cruel things to a sweet spiritual daughter of the Lord. God may heal their twisted hateful attitude but perhaps not in their lifetime.

Maybe they lack the deep abiding faith that my late wife had.

 

[joaniemarie]

“I have been asking God to heal me for years. I don’t understand why He hasn’t me. I guess it’s not God’s will for me to be healed.”

If you’ve been following this short series on prayer, I’m hoping you can spot at least two things wrong with these statements. First, it is always God’s will to heal the sick just as it is always His will to save the lost. Jesus died to save us and His atonement provides for our forgiveness, healing, deliverance and provision. Second, there’s no power in asking God to do something He’s already done. As we saw in Part 1, Jesus instructed us to “heal the sick,” not “ask God to heal the sick.” And as we saw in Part 2, Jesus wants us to speak directly to our mountains.

On my journey I have discovered that there is a huge difference between the traditional view of prayer and what the Bible teaches. We have already looked at six differences. Here is one more:

Traditional: Sometimes the answer is no
Biblical: God is faithful!

Some people will tell you that God hasn’t answered your prayers because you are not doing enough works. They’ll say you’re out of fellowship with Him or you haven’t pounded the gates of heaven or you haven’t confessed all of your sins. Others will try and manage your expectations with doctrine based on their experience rather than His word. Listen to these sorts of people and I guarantee it’ll neutralize your faith.

We need to rest in Jesus’ promise that whatever we ask in His name we shall receive (Jn 14:13, 16:24). “Ask me,” says Jesus, “and I will do it” (Jn 14:14). What is the key to doing the works and greater works of Jesus? It is simple faith in Jesus Christ (Jn 14:12). But sometimes we pray and there is no immediate manifestation. The sickness lingers. Does that mean God said no? Not according to Matthew 21:22 and John 16:24. Let God be true and every man a liar! God’s faithfulness is the one constant in the equation. He is the Rock on which we stand.

Daniel famously prayed two prayers that were both answered instantly. But the manifestation of one prayer took a few minutes, while the other took three weeks (Dan 9:23, 10:12). What was the variable? Not God! In Daniel’s case there was demonic resistance to the second prayer.

One reason why our problems sometimes linger is because the enemy is challenging our authority. He wants to see how serious we are. What should we do? Should we quit? Should we ask God to take over? No. Be encouraged. The devil will flee when we resist him and we do that by submitting to God and His rock-solid promises (Jas 4:7). That sword in your hand isn’t for decorative purposes. Use it! Here’s Andrew Wommack in his book A Better Way to Pray:

“When I minister healing to someone, I’ll pray for them two, three, four, or more times. I don’t care! I’m willing to pray for them until I rub all the hair off of their head! However, I’m not going back to God and saying, ‘Father, it didn’t work the first time. Let it work now, please!’ No! I believe it happened because God is faithful. He gave, but something’s wrong with our receiver. So I work on it. If the devil withstands one dose of the Holy Spirit, I’ll shoot him again! Just like Jesus did with the blind man of Bethsaida (Mark 8:22-26), I pray until I see the answer manifest. You need to get this attitude that God is faithful and He’s already met your need before you ever had it.” (p.125)

Understand that we’re not fighting to get the victory; we’re fighting to enforce the victory that Christ has already won. Satan and sickness were disarmed at the cross (Col 2:15). That’s why we’re called to stand rather than advance (Eph 6:13). We’re not taking ground, we’re holdingground that’s already ours through Christ. So stand firm and declare God’s word over your circumstances. Your tongue holds the power of life and death (Pro 18:21), so proclaim life and grace and health and freedom over your situation.


This taken from Paul Ellis and I agree with him. If I surround myself with unbelief I will not be "thinking on these things" We are told to hold to the truth. I'd encourage anyone who is not finding answers to think differently about what you have been taught about healing. Dare to step out in faith. I can only share what has been true for me and Jesus has healed me and IS healing me each day. And He will you too.

 

[joaniemarie]

Here is an example of how healing is working in those who have walked out their faith in this matter much longer than I have. I'm learning by seeing the familiar experiences my brothers and sisters have gone through too. Below is a short letter describing what I'm learning about and have also been experiencing. I speak in tongues and many things are going on that I have no idea about concerning the workings of the HolySpirit. He makes sense of the things I don't understand. And He has worked out many things I had no idea how to work out. I will always pray in tongues because it's a gift we were given for such times as this.

Steadfast believing in the face of what we don't see is what we are called to. It's the walk of faith and how our new spirit man lives here on earth. We pay attention to our new creation more than we do our flesh. This is what I'm learning. And I share it gladly here.



.... I do ask for things – these days I seem to be asking for a lot of wisdom! – but I don’t ask for things provided in the atonement. Let me give you an example. The other day I had a pain in my body, so I prayed much like I’ve described in these last two posts. I thanked God for the healing and I rebuked the pain. I declared life and health over that part of my body.
However, even though the pain wasn’t bothering me at the time, I didn’t feel like I could stop praying just there. I had a sense of “wait, Son, I’ve got something special just for you.” I didn’t know what to do next, so I asked the Holy Spirit for insight. I also began to pray in tongues. Within 10 seconds a scripture address came to mind. I read it and saw there was a part that I had never noticed that spoke exactly and specifically right to my particular need.

Call it a revelation, a rhema, the result was I was super-encouraged. I began to declare that particular promise over myself with boldness. I hope you’ll understand when I say it just “felt” powerful. (There’s no rhema without power – Luke 1:37, ASV.) So the short answer to your question – do you ask or declare? – is, it’s both: I have faith in His finished work but there are plenty of times when I ask for direction, insight, understanding on how to tackle a particular problem. It just seems to be the smart thing to do because while we only ever have partial knowledge, He knows exactly what’s going on in a situation and why things may be taking longer than they should.

 

[BillG]

You were a professional football player? That's kind of impressive, apparently bad for the knees though.

I have had many episodes of anxiety as well in my life.

Personally, I don't believe that name & claim is scripturally sound because what is happening is a single or a few connected verses are claimed while ignoring the many supporting verses that provide context. You can have great faith that God will heal you but that healing may or may not happen in your lifetime.

My late wife suffered horribly from arthritis yet had a deep abiding faith that God would indeed heal her but only at the right time and place. She was ridiculed horribly by her family because they kept telling her that the reason she was not healed was because she had no faith which was entirely untrue.

Truly, they were the real sick ones for saying such cruel things to a sweet spiritual daughter of the Lord. God may heal their twisted hateful attitude but perhaps not in their lifetime.

Maybe they lack the deep abiding faith that my late wife had.

I was offered a contract but it was withdrawn when my cruciate ligaments were ruptured.

I'm not a name it claim person now in terms of healing etc.

But I am a name and claim it person in the sense that God promises to work good in our circumstances in order to conform us to the image of Jesus.

Your testimony above breaks my heart but also I rejoice in it.

You and your late wife know the truth. That I rejoice in.

 

[BillG]

I'm sorry for what has happened to you and is happening to you but I can't counsel you Bill. I can only share what I've been learning and it isn't what you've been told or supposed. I go one day at a time and that is how the Holy Spirit has been teaching me. I was once without any means in this world and then started learning about what it means to trust Jesus and the righteousness He gave me way back in the 1980s.

I've only recently begun learning how to walk by faith and not by sight. I can't answer for anyone else except myself. But I found out that to see God I have to see His Son. Not through the eyes of other people or opinions. But through His grace and truth. That is a daily thing.

Looking at other people is not where the answers are. I believe Jesus loves me and will take care of me and He has. I believe that Psalm 91 is for us today and I claim His promises for my life. I don't try to figure out why some don't and some do. I don't even go there. There is a rest for us and that is where I go.

When I read these verses I know that Jesus met every single requirement and condition for these promises. And I walk them out as mine because Jesus paid for them by His stripes we are healed and we have His Holy Spirit to show us the way to believe. I need the Holy Spirit every day.

[SUP]1 [/SUP]He who [SUP][a][/SUP]dwells in the secret place of the Most High shall remain stable and fixed under the shadow of the Almighty [Whose power no foe can withstand].
[SUP]
2 [/SUP]I will say of the Lord, He is my Refuge and my Fortress, my God; on Him I lean and rely, and in Him I [confidently] trust!
[SUP]
3 [/SUP]For [then] He will deliver you from the snare of the fowler and from the deadly pestilence.
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4 [/SUP][Then] He will cover you with His pinions, and under His wings shall you trust and find refuge; His truth and His faithfulness are a shield and a buckler.
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5 [/SUP]You shall not be afraid of the terror of the night, nor of the arrow (the evil plots and slanders of the wicked) that flies by day,
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6 [/SUP]Nor of the pestilence that stalks in darkness, nor of the destruction and sudden death that surprise and lay waste at noonday.
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7 [/SUP]A thousand may fall at your side, and ten thousand at your right hand, but it shall not come near you.
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8 [/SUP]Only a spectator shall you be [yourself inaccessible in the secret place of the Most High] as you witness the reward of the wicked.
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9 [/SUP]Because you have made the Lord your refuge, and the Most High your dwelling place,
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10 [/SUP]There shall no evil befall you, nor any plague or calamity come near your tent.
[SUP]
11 [/SUP]For He will give His angels [especial] charge over you to accompany and defend and preserve you in all your ways [of obedience and service].
[SUP]
12 [/SUP]They shall bear you up on their hands, lest you dash your foot against a stone.
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13 [/SUP]You shall tread upon the lion and adder; the young lion and the serpent shall you trample underfoot.
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14 [/SUP]Because he has set his love upon Me, therefore will I deliver him; I will set him on high, because he knows and understands My name [has a personal knowledge of My mercy, love, and kindness—trusts and relies on Me, knowing I will never forsake him, no, never].
[SUP]
15 [/SUP]He shall call upon Me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him.
[SUP]
16 [/SUP]With long life will I satisfy him and show him My salvation.
Footnotes:

1. Psalm 91:1 The rich promises of this whole chapter are dependent upon one’s meeting exactly the conditions of these first two verses (see Exod. 15:26).

When you post what you have, when you start a thread then you counsel.
When you post Bible verses then you counsel.

One sentence is to counsel.

 

[joaniemarie]

And another thought to you guys. I'm not a spring chicken anymore and have to say it's never too late to learn. None of us have "arrived" on the 100% truth train of life. We all have a long way to go. Your experiences and mine are no more important than someone else's. Everyone has a different life lived up till now and is about always learning more about who Jesus is or staying put where we are in our limited understanding up till now.

For myself., I'm moving forward and learning more and more about who Jesus is and what this great salvation He gave us is all about. So if there is annoyance because I see this healing thing differently than most of you I can't help that. I'm learning to step out in faith and HE MEETS US THERE.

If we don't step out we can't see. Faith is about first stepping out and then seeing. We won't see until we dare to step out upon His Word and believe His love and provision is there.

 

[joaniemarie]

When you post what you have, when you start a thread then you counsel.
When you post Bible verses then you counsel.

One sentence is to counsel.

Well Bill., I can't be any one else but me. If you think I'm "counseling" you I can't change your mind. I'm just sharing what I've learned. I admit I'm no expert on anything but I do believe what Jesus said and I believe His Word and His promises are for us.

 

[joaniemarie]

[FONT=&quot]
Ever since James wrote that “faith without works is dead,” Christians have been busying themselves with all sorts of busy-ness to prove to themselves that they really, positively do have faith. But much of what passes for Christian works could be done by anyone, with or without faith.

Let’s not kid ourselves. If what we’re doing is humanly possible, it can’t be a work of faith. I don’t say that to make you feel bad, but to free you to do great exploits! Faith is for moving mountains. Faith is for healing the sick, raising the dead and otherwise demonstrating the gospel. To be specific, faith is for doing the works and greater works of Jesus:[/FONT]
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The person who trusts me will not only do what I’m doing but even greater things, because I, on my way to the Father, am giving you the same work to do that I’ve been doing. You can count on it. (Jn 14:12, MSG)[/FONT]
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I suspect the chief reason why many Christians live no different from their unsaved neighbors is they don’t know about the awesome authority that God has given us. So instead of healing the sick, as Jesus instructed us to do, they’re asking God to heal the sick. Instead of proclaiming life over their hurts, they’re complaining and speaking death over themselves.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
In this short series on prayer, we have contrasted the Biblical way with the traditional way to pray. In Part 1 we saw that there is a difference between praying with hope and praying with faith. In Part 2 we learned that faith doesn’t move God – He’s already moved! In Part 3 we saw from scripture that answered prayers are sometimes delayed by the devil.

The enemy is surely opposed to our prayers, but he’s probably not the main reason why our prayers aren’t answered. No, the hindrance to most of our prayers lies between our ears. The problem is we don’t appreciate what God has already done for us. More to the point, we don’t know how awesome and powerful is the One who now lives within us.[/FONT]
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Children, you belong to God, and you have defeated these enemies. God’s Spirit is in you and is more powerful than the one that is in the world. (1 Jn 4:4 CEV)[/FONT]
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Who do you think you are?[/FONT]
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In Part 3 the punch-line was resist the devil. Here’s today punch-line: Renew your mind and learn to interpret your circumstances through the finished work of the cross. What do I mean by that? I mean it should be normal for you to see yourself as completely forgiven, sanctified, righteous, healthy and prosperous – all because of Jesus.
Is this how you see yourself? Here’s a simple way to find out. When you get sick, which of the following statements best describes how you respond?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](1) “I am sick but I’m going to ask God to heal me.”
(2) “I am healthy but the devil’s trying to rob me.”[/FONT]
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If you chose response No.1 then you’re starting from a place of defeat. By asking God to do something He’s already done, you are confessing ignorance of what Jesus has accomplished on the cross. Maybe you’re not sure of what He’s done. Then you had better find out because faith, by definition, is being sure (He 11:1).

How can you be sure when you’re unsure? Look at what you’re saying: I am sick… The focus is squarely on your physical condition. Do you know what the King Jimmy Bible calls it when we are more mindful of our physical circumstances than God’s word? Carnal mindedness. And you know what that means, right?[/FONT]
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To be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (Rms 8:6, KJV)[/FONT]
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Do you know that you can be in the Spirit yet walk after the flesh? This happens when you put your feelings (what you see and hear etc.) ahead of your faith in God’s word. In effect, you are trusting in your praying performance instead of resting in His finished work. Pray like this and you will reap nothing because your faith is misplaced. Instead of standing on what Christ has done, you’re essentially saying God needs to act again and He won’t unless I first do something. You have more faith in you’re doing than in what Jesus has done.[/FONT]
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If you want to release life and peace into our circumstances, be spiritually minded. That doesn’t mean “think spiritual thoughts.” To be spiritually minded means be led by the spirit. Your renewed spirit, like the Holy Spirit, already trusts God regardless of the circumstances. To be spiritually minded is to walk by faith, not by sight. So speak to your condition and say, “By His stripes I have been healed” (1 Pe 2:24).[/FONT]
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If you chose response No.2 then you’re starting from the place of victory. You might declare, “As He is so am I in this world. The old man who suffered sin’s curse is dead and buried and I am a new creation. Sin and sickness no longer have dominion over me.” I’m not asking you to deny your physical reality but to have faith in a higher reality. I’m not saying the problem you are facing isn’t nothing; I’m saying that this Jesus who lives in you is Really Something! Here’s Andrew Wommack writing in Grace – The Power of the Gospel:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
I’ve changed. I know now that I’m not the sinner trying to become holy. I am the righteous whom Satan is trying to make unholy. I’m not the sick trying to get well. I am the well that the devil is trying to make sick. I’m not the poor trying to be prosperous. I am the prosperous that the Enemy is trying to make poor. This is a totally different attitude and mindset. But I’ve found it much easier to fight from the position of victory than to try to fight to obtain a position of victory. It’s infinitely easier to release something I already have than to go get something I don’t. (pp.117-8)

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When you’re sick your flesh will pull in one direction (“I need healing!”) but your spirit will pull in the other (“By His stripes I am healed!”). Flesh and spirit are opposed to each other and you will have to choose (Gal 5:17). The carnally minded believer will heed the flesh, but the spiritually minded believer will heed God’s word. This is not a question of having more or less faith – you already have the same measure of faith as Jesus (2 Pet 1:1). This is about putting your faith to work and releasing what God has already given you.[/FONT]
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Plant this seed[/FONT]
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In this short series I’ve given you some keys on how to pray effectively. I have given you truth in seed form. Perhaps you’ve been blessed reading these posts. Maybe you even clicked the “like” button or forwarded posts to your friends. But understand that nothing will change in your life unless this seed takes root in your heart and grows. It’s now up to you. Are you content to live no differently from your unsaved neighbors? Or do you want to see the Kingdom come and His will done in your world?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Be warned that neither the devil nor your flesh will like what you’ve read here (Ga 5:17). Jesus said the devil is a thief who likes to steal seed (Mk 4:15). Right about now this thief will be suggesting you go visit Facebook or he’ll be reminding you to take care of some task that really needs to get done. He’ll do whatever it takes to get your focus off Christ and the cross. But we are not ignorant of his schemes.[/FONT]
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I began this series with Wommack and I’ll finish with him. Here he is writing in Spirit, Soul and Body:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
I’d confess aloud, ‘By His stripes I was healed.’ My body would counter, ‘Oh no you’re not!’ Then I’d answer, ‘Yes I am – the Word says so!’… You will have to overcome the same conflict! You don’t just say, ‘All right, I see the truth. Flesh, I now renounce you and choose to walk by the spirit!’ No, it’ll be a traumatic experience when you turn around and head the other direction. Your mind and emotions have been indulged now for many years. They’ve always said that whatever you see is more real than what’s invisible. There’s going to be a fight. (p.117)[/FONT]
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The good news is it’s a fight you can win, for greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world. Have faith in Jesus! Speak to your mountains! Heal the sick! Rebuke that storm! Change the world![/FONT]

 

[BillG]

Well Bill., I can't be any one else but me. If you think I'm "counseling" you I can't change your mind. I'm just sharing what I've learned. I admit I'm no expert on anything but I do believe what Jesus said and I believe His Word and His promises are for us.

Not saying you are counseling me.
I'm just saying when you offer advice, post Bible verses, post extracts from preachers then you are counseling.

 

[joaniemarie]

Not saying you are counseling me.
I'm just saying when you offer advice, post Bible verses, post extracts from preachers then you are counseling.

No., I don't see it like that at all. If that were true than all people on CC are doing that and you should correct everyone Bill.
And you should correct yourself too then. Then no one can share here on cc without being called counselors. And we are not counselors., we are Christians sharing what we believe.

If I don't agree with someone on these threads., I don't follow them. I don't listen to them., I'm not threatened or angry at them. They believe what they believe and it's going to take the Holy Spirit to show them otherwise. It's not our job as Christians to be a mini holyspirits. We already each of us ... already has the Counselor., Comforter., Teacher., Guide. We each must ask Him to reveal the truth and when we hear or read something we ask Him to show us if it's true or not. And He always will.

 

[BenFTW]

But you WoFers don't encourage focusing on the Lord. You encourage focusing on self to get to the point of God owing you. The center of WoF is ME, not God! That's your opening sentence, your closing summary, and the center of the message.

You really have set that pedestal so very high. It is God who declares Himself as our provider, and so, to encourage others to seek Him is not all about self, but rather obedience to His word. Seek first the kingdom, yes? And all these things shall be added unto you. As much as you think so little of your fellow humans, God has set us as the apple of His eye.

 

[Angela53510]

So, I have been thinking over all the reasons the Word Faith doctrine is so dangerous.

1. Damages people’s hearts and souls when they believe, as they have been lied to, yet they are not healed. Well, the part that is damaging is not God saying “no” or “not yet.” The part that is damaging is the people who are not sick, who condemn and judge the ones who are not healed.

Word Faith drives people away from God. Fortunately, he is faithful, and will minister and teach us, in spite of the condemnation of this unBlblical hypocrisy.

2. Kills people. When there is medical treatment available, but you feel pressured by ego, or because of others, and you do not take that medical treatment, but claim healing and die.

Of course, I am thinking of my friend who died of breast cancer, but many others have sent me pms telling me someone they knew someone that this happened with, especially with cancer, and died very soon.

3. UnBiblical - Takes Scriptures out of context - cobble together some verses that should not be together, violà! Bad doctrine. And people are so desperate, with pain or neediness, or greed or lust for things, and they have no real all -encompassing knowledge of the Bible, because they have limited themselves to sound bites, you end up thinking you are on the right track, when in fact, you are walking straight towards hell. If in fact, you were ever on the narrow way.

4. Divides the body of Christ - because “I” have a special, new revelation, that all you people “walking in the flesh” don’t have. Talk about pride and arrogance! We all have the Holy Spirit working in our hearts and lives, if God has saved us.

5. It is a false gospel. The emphasis is on “me” instead of Jesus. The emphasis is on “getting” instead of serving and obeying Jesus. And mostly important, the emphasis is on a gospel of “abundance” instead of the gospel of being saved from sin!

6. It allows false teachers into our midst to deceive people who don’t know better. Creates “new” revelations that are contrary to the Bible.

”Now I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who create dissensions and obstacles contrary to the teaching that you learned. Avoid them! 18 For these are the kind who do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By their smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of the naive.” Romans 16:17-18


Of course, Joanie is going to come back with:

We all have our own opinions.
Some of us are walking in the Spirit, but most are in the flesh, or they would be healed.
Pamphlet
Pamphlet
Pamplet
Oh, and “I agree with you, other Word Faith person on this thread!”

 

[Didymous]

JoanieMarie, the problem I see with Dan Mohler's-and by extension your-belief on healing is this: while all can agree that Jesus came to do the will of the Father, we obviously differ on your contention that it's always the will of the Father that everyone should be healed, every time. You either believe that God couldn't heal because people's unbelief was too strong for Him to overpower(which is ridiculous, because God can do anything); or that He clearly had another reason than unbelief(for we know that Jesus healed even unbelievers). What is His reason, only He knows. And then there's the matter of new testament Christians not being healed-of whom Paul is the chief, but what about Epaphroditus, or Timothy? Was it GOD's will to skip over them because they didn't believe? Paul himself recorded what Jesus answered when he requested three times for deliverance. No mention of unbelief there, but pride seems to be implied, but we don't know for sure.

 

[joaniemarie]

JoanieMarie, the problem I see with Dan Mohler's-and by extension your-belief on healing is this: while all can agree that Jesus came to do the will of the Father, we obviously differ on your contention that it's always the will of the Father that everyone should be healed, every time. You either believe that God couldn't heal because people's unbelief was too strong for Him to overpower(which is ridiculous, because God can do anything); or that He clearly had another reason than unbelief(for we know that Jesus healed even unbelievers). What is His reason, only He knows. And then there's the matter of new testament Christians not being healed-of whom Paul is the chief, but what about Epaphroditus, or Timothy? Was it GOD's will to skip over them because they didn't believe? Paul himself recorded what Jesus answered when he requested three times for deliverance. No mention of unbelief there, but pride seems to be implied, but we don't know for sure.

I already mentioned this before. I don't believe the way you do about Paul's thorn in the flesh because Jesus never zapped anyone with sickness to teach lessons. If we want to know how God works today., we look to the Son through the Spirit.

 

[joaniemarie]

This is another amazing truth about seeing Jesus when we are trying to understand the Scriptures. Seeing Jesus must be the goal when we read the Bible. I put a post up about this many times because it's so very true and hit home to me.

It takes the Holy Spirit to show us the truth of who Jesus is., and to see who God the Father is. When we see God through the old covenant mindset there is a veil over our eyes. It was true for me as a Christian. Never heard of new covenant Christians trying to live under the old covenant and ended up spinning their wheels sort of speak. I figured the requirements were all the same but they are not. Covenants are all different. And today we live under the covenant of grace not works.


John 5:39-40 is Jesus speaking to the Jews that rejected Him.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]You search and investigate and pore over the Scriptures diligently, because you suppose and trust that you have eternal life through them. And these [very Scriptures] testify about Me!
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And still you are not willing [but refuse] to come to Me, so that you might have life.
We can make the scriptures "God" When I say that - it is really our "interpretation" of the scriptures that we make to be a "god" in our own mind. Without the Holy Spirit's revelation to show us Christ - we are at the mercy of our own religious un-renewed minds.

The Bible is not a roadmap or instruction manual in a"completed" sense. The Bible is NOT God - God breathed - inspired - YES!
But the Bible is a book about Jesus. The Bible is not an end to itself - the Bible speaks of Jesus. He is the true reality that the scriptures speak off ( This is why there is so much controversy on the Sabbath Day issue )

Jesus said "...you search the scriptures because you think ( human reasoning ) "in them" you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life." John 5:39-40

Reading the Bible without wanting to know and see Jesus and the Father for whom they truly are is like reading someone else's love letters. You might learn a few things about love but this will not move you toward the one who wrote the letters.

Some people get confused because they think the Bible has all the answers - it does not. It does however point us to the One who "is"the answer! James never said - "If anyone lacks wisdom you should study the Bible - He said - you should ask God Himself. James 1:5 ( God may use a verse in the scriptures or a word from another teacher...etc )

God surely speaks to us through the Bible but if the Bible doesn't lead you to the revelation of the One called Wisdom - you will be no wiser than a Pharisee. If we look for Jesus - the Holy Spirit will reveal Him in the Old Testament.

A mis-guided ( albeit maybe a well intentioned ) teacher/preacher will use the scriptures to tell you what you should do, but a grace/Christ oriented teacher/preacher will use the scriptures to show you what Jesus has done and who you are in Him now because we are in Christ and He is in us. The Holy Spirit in us teaches/guides/reveals to us Jesus and the Father's true character and finished work.

Read the scriptures with the view to "see" Jesus. In Him we see the heart and will of the Father being manifested on this earth. The best translation of the Bible is Jesus!

He is the "living word" within the written word and He is flawless and free of translation errors. All of man's translations have biases and inaccuracies. Sometimes translators give their "doctrinal beliefs" when translating a verse or word.

The scriptures teach us that we are not living by the teaching of the Bible per se - we are living by the life of Christ in us. The source of our life is not the Bible - the source of our life is the Lord Jesus Christ and the Father.

In the Old Testament when it refers to "the word of God" and the life it brings - it was in reality talking about "the living word of God" ( Jesus Himself ) - of which the scriptures are a "shadow" of the real substance - Jesus. ( another reason why strict Sabbath Keepers cannot see Christ as our true Sabbath rest now in the New Covenant - they are stuck in the shadow and think that it is the real )

The Bible shows us the ways Jesus Christ wants to express His life through us to a hurt and dying world. In Him we live, move and have our being. The Bible leads us to the source of life = Jesus Himself.

The Bible is NOT God but we can make our own interpretations of the Bible to be our "god" in our own un-renewed minds. The Holy Spirit has come in us to show us the things "of Christ" and reveal them to us - His beloved children.
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Seeing Jesus shows us how to interpret this verse about Paul's thorn in the flesh. Jesus never put sickness on anyone nor did He teach anyone that way. It was a messenger of satan who had a bunch rotten people following Paul around being a pain in the behind. Each time Paul taught in an assembly and left to teach in other places., these same people came and sought to confuse the brethren. It was a major thorn in Paul's flesh.

This also makes it clear that in Acts 5 about Ananias and Sapphira were not believers because Jesus isn't about killing His sheep He's about protecting His sheep. I see Jesus. That is why I know without a doubt how to interpret these Scriptures and I'm not alone. And how I can stand firm in my own understanding of these issues when there are differing views on it. I have a confidence in Jesus love for me and know He doesn't kill off His sheep. It's the devil who comes to kill...steal..and destroy. Jesus came to give life and that more abundantly.

 

[joaniemarie]

I've learned by progressively becoming more intimately acquainted with Jesus. We cannot learn all about Jesus in one life time. But we will learn what we need to know for each day by His Spirit ministering to our spirit and by the Bible read and meditated on and heard preached by anointed preachers and teachers.

 

[Didymous]

What about Timothy, or Epaphroditus? If you dis count Paul, then tell me how you discount these, please.

 

[Didymous]

JoanieMarie, what you don't do-and I've seen people ask you several times-is share your own thought. Posting videos of people with suspect theology, and not even giving scriptural reasons why YOU agree with their doctrine-from your own point if view-makes anyone question the videos at best, and question your intelligence at worst. I'm neither criticizing you, nor calling you names-just pointing out what your actions hear look like to even an impartial observer. If you truly believe you're right-then try to look like it.

 

[Blain]

I have no intention to hound anyone who believes in wof even if I don't agree with them but I do wonder if they have ever considered the blessings that come from not being healed? I bear chains that I have prayed and have been prayed over many times many times that I can never hope to break myself I have sickness that is always affecting my health and well being and my body itself still damaged from the cancer I had and likely will remain this way and even gradually get worse as I get older.

But because I was never healed it helped make me who I am today, he has taught me patience and blind faith through it even though I have no real reason to believe that one day these chains I bear will be shattered considering never once has any of them been shattered I still firmly believe that one day they will be and that even though right now they are perhaps my greatest weakness they will one day become my greatest strength. I didn't learn to believe like this through healing rather I learned to believe like this because I was tried by fire- a fire in which I had to learn to trust him and see with my heart not my eyes. True I have never once seen or experienced healing yet I believe in it firmly regardless.

Honestly had I not gone through all I have and had I received healing true I would have experienced a part of him i have never experienced before but how precious is it when you are able to connect to others who have known such trials and such pain? Empathy is a very powerful tool and a very amazing way to connect to the hearts of others that couldn't be reached before

 

[Angela53510]

I already mentioned this before. I don't believe the way you do about Paul's thorn in the flesh because Jesus never zapped anyone with sickness to teach lessons. If we want to know how God works today., we look to the Son through the Spirit.

Straw man!

No one has ever said God sends sickness on people. Sickness is a result of living in a fallen world. Sickness entered through Adam and Eve, and it will not be gone until Jesus Christ returns!

And this is exactly the crux of the matter!

We live in a fallen world, and we see through a glass darkly.

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

The first century AD had primitive medicine, and people grew sick and died young! Paul, Timothy and Epaphroditus all were mentioned as being ill, Epaphroditus almost died.

”But for now I have considered it necessary to send Epaphroditus to you. For he is my brother, coworker and fellow soldier, and your messenger and minister to me in my need. 26 Indeed, he greatly missed all of you and was distressed because you heard that he had been ill. 27 In fact he became so ill that he nearly died. But God showed mercy to him—and not to him only, but also to me—so that I would not have grief on top of grief. 28 Therefore I am all the more eager to send him, so that when you see him again you can rejoice and I can be free from anxiety” Phil. 2:25-28

God showed him mercy, so that Paul would not have grief on top of grief. And certainly mercy to poor Epaphroditus! But!, isn’t it interesting that there is no mention from Paul of naming and claiming it, of being healed, just God showed mercy to him! I guess Paul missed an opportunity to speak words of faith and healing! He just trusted God to show him mercy.

A vastly different thing than the name and claim it! Yes, people got sick and died, even though they loved Jesus. No, God didn’t send sickness on them. But, sickness was just part of how they, and we live!

No more stupid straw men, please!