Hebrews 10:26-31
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Evening.
If you don't mind me doing so I would like to respond with a few points to your responses above.
Mind you if you do mind I'm going to respond anyway
I think firstly when it comes to repentance in terms of righteousness and sin we need to look at what Jesus said.
John 16:7-11
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
What is the sin that Jesus says the Holy Spirit will convict us of?
The sin of unbelief in him.
To me this is essential to true saving faith. So this is the change of mind that Jesus calls for.
So what are we obedient to?
His calling to faith in him?
So assuming that one places genuine faith in him, then we have the Holy Spirit in us to testify this.
What worries me is that then we get into "evidenced by obedience" and how we interpret it
What is this obedience, how is it evidenced, how do we quantity and qualify?
Yes I agree that we should be addressing any concerns, just like Paul did in Romans.
But the truth is today its not done.
People are just written off because they do not display the level of obedience or works that we define.
There is no desire for discipleship.
Just write them off.
Yet people assume this is the case for newborns but also for those who go missing in action.
No desire to walk the walk with people.
Fruit takes time to grow.
People need pruning.
If a person has no desire to change then leave them to it, but at least find out first.
I believe the passage we are discussing here relates to Hebrews 6.
The willful sin is to reject the sacrifice they Jesus made on the cross for forgiveness of sins.
They in effect reject Jesus full stop and have no desire to change, therefore not saved in the first the place.
Belivers will struggle with sins, those sins being of the flesh but also doubt.
This doubt being that because they struggle with sin and can't seem to overcome sin then God does not love them, which leads to a works based theology.
Work well and overcome then God will love you, if not then he will not.
There is a difference between sinning willfully in terms of our walk.
If we sin willingly with no regrets or not wanting to change then that is different from sinning and hating it.
If you don't mind me doing so I would like to respond with a few points to your responses above.
Mind you if you do mind I'm going to respond anyway
I think firstly when it comes to repentance in terms of righteousness and sin we need to look at what Jesus said.
John 16:7-11
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
What is the sin that Jesus says the Holy Spirit will convict us of?
The sin of unbelief in him.
To me this is essential to true saving faith. So this is the change of mind that Jesus calls for.
So what are we obedient to?
His calling to faith in him?
So assuming that one places genuine faith in him, then we have the Holy Spirit in us to testify this.
What worries me is that then we get into "evidenced by obedience" and how we interpret it
What is this obedience, how is it evidenced, how do we quantity and qualify?
Yes I agree that we should be addressing any concerns, just like Paul did in Romans.
But the truth is today its not done.
People are just written off because they do not display the level of obedience or works that we define.
There is no desire for discipleship.
Just write them off.
Yet people assume this is the case for newborns but also for those who go missing in action.
No desire to walk the walk with people.
Fruit takes time to grow.
People need pruning.
If a person has no desire to change then leave them to it, but at least find out first.
I believe the passage we are discussing here relates to Hebrews 6.
The willful sin is to reject the sacrifice they Jesus made on the cross for forgiveness of sins.
They in effect reject Jesus full stop and have no desire to change, therefore not saved in the first the place.
Belivers will struggle with sins, those sins being of the flesh but also doubt.
This doubt being that because they struggle with sin and can't seem to overcome sin then God does not love them, which leads to a works based theology.
Work well and overcome then God will love you, if not then he will not.
There is a difference between sinning willfully in terms of our walk.
If we sin willingly with no regrets or not wanting to change then that is different from sinning and hating it.
R
True. Salvation is not earned by works, but what the church does not understand is you won't be saved when Jesus comes back if you don't have works.
21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."-Matthew 7:21
The church keeps listening to people who say you do not need to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back. But Jesus said you will not enter into the kingdom if you don't. That's not a works gospel. You owe it to yourself to learn what Jesus meant.
You have to get out of the 'once saved always saved' rut of thinking and be able to see how works are necessary to enter the kingdom without those works earning your way into the kingdom. The church has made it so countless people are literally incapable of understanding the necessity for works without those works earning salvation. You're probably scratching your head right now wondering how and are sure that I, and Jesus, are wrong.
21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."-Matthew 7:21
The church keeps listening to people who say you do not need to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back. But Jesus said you will not enter into the kingdom if you don't. That's not a works gospel. You owe it to yourself to learn what Jesus meant.
You have to get out of the 'once saved always saved' rut of thinking and be able to see how works are necessary to enter the kingdom without those works earning your way into the kingdom. The church has made it so countless people are literally incapable of understanding the necessity for works without those works earning salvation. You're probably scratching your head right now wondering how and are sure that I, and Jesus, are wrong.
R
Which part, specifically, do you think I'm in disagreement about?
Evening.
If you don't mind me doing so I would like to respond with a few points to your responses above.
Mind you if you do mind I'm going to respond anyway
I think firstly when it comes to repentance in terms of righteousness and sin we need to look at what Jesus said.
John 16:7-11
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
What is the sin that Jesus says the Holy Spirit will convict us of?
The sin of unbelief in him.
To me this is essential to true saving faith. So this is the change of mind that Jesus calls for.
So what are we obedient to?
His calling to faith in him?
So assuming that one places genuine faith in him, then we have the Holy Spirit in us to testify this.
What worries me is that then we get into "evidenced by obedience" and how we interpret it
What is this obedience, how is it evidenced, how do we quantity and qualify?
Yes I agree that we should be addressing any concerns, just like Paul did in Romans.
But the truth is today its not done.
People are just written off because they do not display the level of obedience or works that we define.
There is no desire for discipleship.
Just write them off.
Yet people assume this is the case for newborns but also for those who go missing in action.
No desire to walk the walk with people.
Fruit takes time to grow.
People need pruning.
If a person has no desire to change then leave them to it, but at least find out first.
I believe the passage we are discussing here relates to Hebrews 6.
The willful sin is to reject the sacrifice they Jesus made on the cross for forgiveness of sins.
They in effect reject Jesus full stop and have no desire to change, therefore not saved in the first the place.
Belivers will struggle with sins, those sins being of the flesh but also doubt.
This doubt being that because they struggle with sin and can't seem to overcome sin then God does not love them, which leads to a works based theology.
Work well and overcome then God will love you, if not then he will not.
There is a difference between sinning willfully in terms of our walk.
If we sin willingly with no regrets or not wanting to change then that is different from sinning and hating it.
If you don't mind me doing so I would like to respond with a few points to your responses above.
Mind you if you do mind I'm going to respond anyway
I think firstly when it comes to repentance in terms of righteousness and sin we need to look at what Jesus said.
John 16:7-11
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
What is the sin that Jesus says the Holy Spirit will convict us of?
The sin of unbelief in him.
To me this is essential to true saving faith. So this is the change of mind that Jesus calls for.
So what are we obedient to?
His calling to faith in him?
So assuming that one places genuine faith in him, then we have the Holy Spirit in us to testify this.
What worries me is that then we get into "evidenced by obedience" and how we interpret it
What is this obedience, how is it evidenced, how do we quantity and qualify?
Yes I agree that we should be addressing any concerns, just like Paul did in Romans.
But the truth is today its not done.
People are just written off because they do not display the level of obedience or works that we define.
There is no desire for discipleship.
Just write them off.
Yet people assume this is the case for newborns but also for those who go missing in action.
No desire to walk the walk with people.
Fruit takes time to grow.
People need pruning.
If a person has no desire to change then leave them to it, but at least find out first.
I believe the passage we are discussing here relates to Hebrews 6.
The willful sin is to reject the sacrifice they Jesus made on the cross for forgiveness of sins.
They in effect reject Jesus full stop and have no desire to change, therefore not saved in the first the place.
Belivers will struggle with sins, those sins being of the flesh but also doubt.
This doubt being that because they struggle with sin and can't seem to overcome sin then God does not love them, which leads to a works based theology.
Work well and overcome then God will love you, if not then he will not.
There is a difference between sinning willfully in terms of our walk.
If we sin willingly with no regrets or not wanting to change then that is different from sinning and hating it.
R
Right, but in the end, generally speaking, if you're not 'shined up' in some measure of spiritual growth when Jesus comes back you won't be saved. You still being in your old self - the flesh - shows you were not saved in this life.....or you forfeited your salvation through a return to unbelief.
Too many people are using God's grace as the excuse and rationalization that they do not have to be changed/changing and can continue to live in their old lives or that would be them trying to earn their own salvation. That is some of the worst doctrine I have ever heard. But it is winning over the church at this time in church history. The end is near, IMO.
Too many people are using God's grace as the excuse and rationalization that they do not have to be changed/changing and can continue to live in their old lives or that would be them trying to earn their own salvation. That is some of the worst doctrine I have ever heard. But it is winning over the church at this time in church history. The end is near, IMO.
R
Or better, to examine the characteristic qualities that signify the presence of the Holy Spirit in salvation in a person. Paul does that here:
"the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."-Galatians 5:23-24
These traits don't earn you salvation. They show you have it. But so many people are sure they don't have to have to this change of life in them to be saved. Because they instantly and narrow mindedly think that if they HAVE to have them that means salvation is by works.
They do not realize that you HAVE to have them in your life growing and increasing to some degree because that's what the change of life faith in Christ makes in a person. Speaking very generally here, of course, but if you life a full life and your faith has not changed you even some according to the fruit of the Spirit listed above, you don't have the salvation, and the life that accompanies salvation, that you think you do. That's not a works gospel, people. But I know, 'once saved always saved' has trained you to only be able to understand the necessity for works as you trying to save yourself.
"the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."-Galatians 5:23-24
These traits don't earn you salvation. They show you have it. But so many people are sure they don't have to have to this change of life in them to be saved. Because they instantly and narrow mindedly think that if they HAVE to have them that means salvation is by works.
They do not realize that you HAVE to have them in your life growing and increasing to some degree because that's what the change of life faith in Christ makes in a person. Speaking very generally here, of course, but if you life a full life and your faith has not changed you even some according to the fruit of the Spirit listed above, you don't have the salvation, and the life that accompanies salvation, that you think you do. That's not a works gospel, people. But I know, 'once saved always saved' has trained you to only be able to understand the necessity for works as you trying to save yourself.
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When we confess Christ we have not received the Spirit yet,so all we can have is faith,and our works cannot save us.
But after we have the Spirit we better have works,and if not then our faith is dead.
Can a person sit around and be lazy and not labor for the kingdom of God,and not care about the poor and needy,and helping people with their needs,and be saved.
For if they do not care about people,and laboring for the kingdom of God,how are they saved,which Jesus said if you do not do the things He says then you do not love Him.
They do not want to be like their Master Jesus,and then they think they are saved,for if you do not want to be like Jesus you do not love Him.
But they say but if we have the Spirit then we will do works.
Then why do they lack works then,for if they were led of the Spirit they would always do works,but they say,we cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect our relationship with God,and He blesses us with our wants.
Why the lack of works if they are led of the Spirit,and why the sin if they are led of the Spirit,which they say they cannot abstain from sin despite the Spirit given to people.
But living for God is not a part time thing,it is always to be done,and if you hold unto sin,or anything contrary to being a Christian,and not loving people,then you cannot be saved.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
People better have works or that means they do not care,or love properly.
Why?Because we are not forced to be led of the Spirit,for if we were we would never sin again,and would always do works nothing wavering,and act like Jesus all the time,so if we are not forced to be led of the Spirit,and do right then it is our responsibility to do such,and if not we are not right with God for we do not care,or love,like we should.
When we confess Christ we have not received the Spirit yet,so all we can have if faith,and our works cannot save us.
But after we have the Spirit we better have works,and if not then our faith is dead,which Paul says the same thing as James,they have erred from the faith.
Paul was dealing with Gentiles,and their false religions,so of course none of their works can save them in their false religions,but only having faith in Christ,but after they receive the Spirit then they have to have works,which Paul went against them for their fleshy ways because they were not being spiritual by the Spirit,but if it is once saved always saved why would Paul go against them if sin does not affect their relationship with God.
But after we have the Spirit we better have works,and if not then our faith is dead.
Can a person sit around and be lazy and not labor for the kingdom of God,and not care about the poor and needy,and helping people with their needs,and be saved.
For if they do not care about people,and laboring for the kingdom of God,how are they saved,which Jesus said if you do not do the things He says then you do not love Him.
They do not want to be like their Master Jesus,and then they think they are saved,for if you do not want to be like Jesus you do not love Him.
But they say but if we have the Spirit then we will do works.
Then why do they lack works then,for if they were led of the Spirit they would always do works,but they say,we cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect our relationship with God,and He blesses us with our wants.
Why the lack of works if they are led of the Spirit,and why the sin if they are led of the Spirit,which they say they cannot abstain from sin despite the Spirit given to people.
But living for God is not a part time thing,it is always to be done,and if you hold unto sin,or anything contrary to being a Christian,and not loving people,then you cannot be saved.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
People better have works or that means they do not care,or love properly.
Why?Because we are not forced to be led of the Spirit,for if we were we would never sin again,and would always do works nothing wavering,and act like Jesus all the time,so if we are not forced to be led of the Spirit,and do right then it is our responsibility to do such,and if not we are not right with God for we do not care,or love,like we should.
When we confess Christ we have not received the Spirit yet,so all we can have if faith,and our works cannot save us.
But after we have the Spirit we better have works,and if not then our faith is dead,which Paul says the same thing as James,they have erred from the faith.
Paul was dealing with Gentiles,and their false religions,so of course none of their works can save them in their false religions,but only having faith in Christ,but after they receive the Spirit then they have to have works,which Paul went against them for their fleshy ways because they were not being spiritual by the Spirit,but if it is once saved always saved why would Paul go against them if sin does not affect their relationship with God.
At some point when I was doing research about the scripture passages concerned, I too learned it was in reference to the animal sacrifice rituals. Considering the time period the text was written, one could come to the conclusion that there would of been those who were still practicing the animal sacrifice but not aware of The Messiah's finished work on the cross.
But, on the hand, there were those that were still doing the animal sacrifice simply because they didn't accept The Messiah's finished work on the cross and just stuck to doing the animal sacrifices, which as far as I know, officially the animal sacrifices stopped around 70AD, as reading up a bit on history, and that time period is when the temple concerned was destroyed back then. Now today, there is still this mindset of those wanting to return officially to the animal sacrifices, but whether people today are still sacrificing animals unofficially (even though there is no 3rd temple yet) I cannot comment on, but it wouldn't surprise me if it is done still.
Context of the Scripture passages concerned is the key here.
But, on the hand, there were those that were still doing the animal sacrifice simply because they didn't accept The Messiah's finished work on the cross and just stuck to doing the animal sacrifices, which as far as I know, officially the animal sacrifices stopped around 70AD, as reading up a bit on history, and that time period is when the temple concerned was destroyed back then. Now today, there is still this mindset of those wanting to return officially to the animal sacrifices, but whether people today are still sacrificing animals unofficially (even though there is no 3rd temple yet) I cannot comment on, but it wouldn't surprise me if it is done still.
Context of the Scripture passages concerned is the key here.
If I'm totally honest and I will be honest.
I'm not gonna put OSAS aside as I know it's an issue for you.
Firstly I will say that if I understand you then I think you believe a person can struggle with sin yet hate it and want rid of it.
That being the case they are genuine belivers.
If I'm right then we agree.
Yet if a person does not overcome then that's evidence they are not saved.
That being the case then you deserve the right to say they are not saved.
Yet I can't recall you ever saying you would walk with people who struggle with sin.
I remember asking you if you would and you said "Yes and no" and left it at that.
When I pressed in you just said along the lines (my interpretation) if they continue in it they are not saved.
So you use this to lambast OSAS because it's a license to sin but do not seem willing to come alongside those who struggle with sin.
Maybe you think I'm a greasy gracer, I think you do.
I'm not gonna put OSAS aside as I know it's an issue for you.
Firstly I will say that if I understand you then I think you believe a person can struggle with sin yet hate it and want rid of it.
That being the case they are genuine belivers.
If I'm right then we agree.
Yet if a person does not overcome then that's evidence they are not saved.
That being the case then you deserve the right to say they are not saved.
Yet I can't recall you ever saying you would walk with people who struggle with sin.
I remember asking you if you would and you said "Yes and no" and left it at that.
When I pressed in you just said along the lines (my interpretation) if they continue in it they are not saved.
So you use this to lambast OSAS because it's a license to sin but do not seem willing to come alongside those who struggle with sin.
Maybe you think I'm a greasy gracer, I think you do.