~Historical Gospel~

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Bingo

Well-known member
Feb 9, 2019
5,830
3,638
113
#1
There was a danger of our thrusting ourselves between men and the Gospels, and refusing to leave the individual man alone with the sayings of Jesus.
There was a danger that we should offer them a Jesus who was too small, because we had forced Him into conformity with our human standards and human psychology. To see that, one need only read the Lives of Jesus written since the 'sixties, and notice what they have made of the great imperious sayings of the Lord, how they have weakened down His imperative world-contemning demands upon individuals, that He might not come into conflict with our ethical ideals, and might tune His denial of the world to our acceptance of it. Many of the greatest sayings are found lying in a corner like explosive shells from which the charges have been removed. No small portion of elemental religious power needed to be drawn off from His sayings to prevent them from conflicting with our system of religious world-acceptance. We have made Jesus hold another language with our time from that which He really held.
In the process we ourselves have been enfeebled, and have robbed our own thoughts of their vigour in order to project them back into history and make them speak to us out of the past. It is nothing less than a misfortune for modern theology that it mixes history with everything and ends by being proud of the skill with which it finds its own thoughts— even to its beggarly pseudo-metaphysic with which it has banished genuine speculative metaphysic from the sphere of religion—in Jesus, and represents Him as expressing them. It had almost deserved the reproach: "he who putteth his hand to the plough, and looketh back, is not fit for the Kingdom of God."
It was no small matter, therefore, that in the course of the critical study of the Life of Jesus, after a resistance lasting for two generations, during which first one expedient was tried and then another, theology was forced by genuine history to begin to doubt the artificial history with which it had thought to give new life to our Christianity, and to yield to the facts, which, as Wrede strikingly said, are sometimes the most radical critics of all. History will force it to find a way to transcend history, and to fight for the lordship and rule of Jesus over this world with weapons tempered in a different forge.
We are experiencing what Paul experienced. In the very moment when we were coming nearer to the historical Jesus than men had ever come before, and were already stretching out our hands to draw Him into our own time, we have been obliged to give up the attempt and acknowledge our failure in that paradoxical saying: "If we have known Christ after the flesh yet henceforth know we Him no more." And further we must be prepared to find that the historical knowledge of the personality and life of Jesus will not be a help, but perhaps even an offence to religion.
But the truth is, it is not Jesus as historically known, but Jesus as spiritually arisen within men, who is significant for our time and can help it. Not the historical Jesus, but the spirit which goes forth from Him and in the spirits of men strives for new influence and rule, is that which overcomes the world.

( anonymous )
 

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Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
15,928
5,462
113
#2
Um ok i thought all christians read the gospels according to matthew, mark, luke and john in the new testament and not 'the lives of Jesus written since the sixties'.

I mean I dont know what book or biography you referring to. Just read the Holy Bible. Its all there written by the people who were with him when he was on earth.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
33,064
11,302
113
#3
Cease striving and know that I am God;
I will be exalted among the nations;
I will be exalted in the earth.
(Psalm 46:10)
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#4
There was a danger of our thrusting ourselves between men and the Gospels, and refusing to leave the individual man alone with the sayings of Jesus.
There was a danger that we should offer them a Jesus who was too small, because we had forced Him into conformity with our human standards and human psychology. To see that, one need only read the Lives of Jesus written since the 'sixties, and notice what they have made of the great imperious sayings of the Lord, how they have weakened down His imperative world-contemning demands upon individuals, that He might not come into conflict with our ethical ideals, and might tune His denial of the world to our acceptance of it. Many of the greatest sayings are found lying in a corner like explosive shells from which the charges have been removed. No small portion of elemental religious power needed to be drawn off from His sayings to prevent them from conflicting with our system of religious world-acceptance. We have made Jesus hold another language with our time from that which He really held.
In the process we ourselves have been enfeebled, and have robbed our own thoughts of their vigour in order to project them back into history and make them speak to us out of the past. It is nothing less than a misfortune for modern theology that it mixes history with everything and ends by being proud of the skill with which it finds its own thoughts— even to its beggarly pseudo-metaphysic with which it has banished genuine speculative metaphysic from the sphere of religion—in Jesus, and represents Him as expressing them. It had almost deserved the reproach: "he who putteth his hand to the plough, and looketh back, is not fit for the Kingdom of God."
It was no small matter, therefore, that in the course of the critical study of the Life of Jesus, after a resistance lasting for two generations, during which first one expedient was tried and then another, theology was forced by genuine history to begin to doubt the artificial history with which it had thought to give new life to our Christianity, and to yield to the facts, which, as Wrede strikingly said, are sometimes the most radical critics of all. History will force it to find a way to transcend history, and to fight for the lordship and rule of Jesus over this world with weapons tempered in a different forge.
We are experiencing what Paul experienced. In the very moment when we were coming nearer to the historical Jesus than men had ever come before, and were already stretching out our hands to draw Him into our own time, we have been obliged to give up the attempt and acknowledge our failure in that paradoxical saying: "If we have known Christ after the flesh yet henceforth know we Him no more." And further we must be prepared to find that the historical knowledge of the personality and life of Jesus will not be a help, but perhaps even an offence to religion.
But the truth is, it is not Jesus as historically known, but Jesus as spiritually arisen within men, who is significant for our time and can help it. Not the historical Jesus, but the spirit which goes forth from Him and in the spirits of men strives for new influence and rule, is that which overcomes the world.

( anonymous )
What I took from "Mr. Anonymous", was what man, and his traditions have done? Is to cease from the "perseverance" of saints, to a more widely accepted seccular/carnally-minded view of seeing "meta-physical" events contained in the Holy Scriptures, as nothing more then a "Grimm's Fairy Tale!"
Pretty sad state of "love grown cold!" Ain't it?

Matthew 15
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
 

Bingo

Well-known member
Feb 9, 2019
5,830
3,638
113
#5
"Bringing to mind the enormous 'change' that has evolved in every aspect of life
since the sixties...but the 'church' in relation to religion, faith, gospel or preaching...be whatever
one choses to define religion...it has evolved into a new era 'about' God. Unless one has
witnessed the time that 'was'...no explanation would suffice...the time has to be LIVED.
'Growing pains' mentioned through the inspiration of Christ, depicts the coming of new messengers
of Christ, too shall be necessary to evolve with the changing of society and know that great deception
in just the last sixty years has brought about a watered down and 'sensitivity' approach, so as
to cater to mankind's 'organized' theme of 'religion'. God's love is not meant to be easy...
a falseness of this truth is dangerous to the pampered souls of today, for the sake of 'fill the pews'!
The ABSOLUTE necessity of APPLYING the teachings of Christ should be BOLDLY told of...
not by bread alone bears a profound significance."
'Praise God'
 

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Bingo

Well-known member
Feb 9, 2019
5,830
3,638
113
#6
What I took from "Mr. Anonymous", was what man, and his traditions have done? Is to cease from the "perseverance" of saints, to a more widely accepted seccular/carnally-minded view of seeing "meta-physical" events contained in the Holy Scriptures, as nothing more then a "Grimm's Fairy Tale!"
Pretty sad state of "love grown cold!" Ain't it?

Matthew 15
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
"Thanks for your input."...:)
 

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NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#7
"Bringing to mind the enormous 'change' that has evolved in every aspect of life
since the sixties...but the 'church' in relation to religion, faith, gospel or preaching...be whatever
one choses to define religion...it has evolved into a new era 'about' God. Unless one has
witnessed the time that 'was'...no explanation would suffice...the time has to be LIVED.
'Growing pains' mentioned through the inspiration of Christ, depicts the coming of new messengers
of Christ, too shall be necessary to evolve with the changing of society and know that great deception
in just the last sixty years has brought about a watered down and 'sensitivity' approach, so as
to cater to mankind's 'organized' theme of 'religion'. God's love is not meant to be easy...
a falseness of this truth is dangerous to the pampered souls of today, for the sake of 'fill the pews'!
The ABSOLUTE necessity of APPLYING the teachings of Christ should be BOLDLY told of...
not by bread alone bears a profound significance."
'Praise God'
You kinda remind me, with this post, of a member long gone. He was gone long before this new "format" came online. His name was "Yet!" He was an "earthy" kinda poster. Much like myself. Of the K.I.S.S. variety. Keeping it simple, in speech and vocabulary. "Brother Yet", as he was referred to, like myself, for that matter, were/are very against "churches of stone", as Brother Yet called, 'em! I liked his description so much, I rather adopted that assessment myself. Churchianity, is a term I use, as well.
He took a lot of heat from the people in here. Which could be a reason he's not here anymore. Hard to tell. Things change!
Anyways. Welcome to CC!
 

Bingo

Well-known member
Feb 9, 2019
5,830
3,638
113
#8
You kinda remind me, with this post, of a member long gone. He was gone long before this new "format" came online. His name was "Yet!" He was an "earthy" kinda poster. Much like myself. Of the K.I.S.S. variety. Keeping it simple, in speech and vocabulary. "Brother Yet", as he was referred to, like myself, for that matter, were/are very against "churches of stone", as Brother Yet called, 'em! I liked his description so much, I rather adopted that assessment myself. Churchianity, is a term I use, as well.
He took a lot of heat from the people in here. Which could be a reason he's not here anymore. Hard to tell. Things change!
Anyways. Welcome to CC!
"Most 'preachers' in today’s world are at the 30% spiritual level and as a result they are neither able to understand the true implied meaning of the Scriptures they quote, nor have they experienced first-hand everything that has been written. Thus, the possibility of leading the audience astray is high."
'Praise God'
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
2,630
113
#9
"Most 'preachers' in today’s world are at the 30% spiritual level and as a result they are neither able to understand the true implied meaning of the Scriptures they quote, nor have they experienced first-hand everything that has been written. Thus, the possibility of leading the audience astray is high."
'Praise God'
Which spiritual-level meter are you using?

Im using the spiritlevel max 9000 DELUXE edition. It also measures how likely the preacher is to be in error.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,182
3,478
113
#10
"Most 'preachers' in today’s world are at the 30% spiritual level and as a result they are neither able to understand the true implied meaning of the Scriptures they quote, nor have they experienced first-hand everything that has been written. Thus, the possibility of leading the audience astray is high."
'Praise God'
Seems to me for someone to know someone else is at the 30% level, they themselves would have to be at the 100% level. Is that where you are at?
 

Locoponydirtman

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2018
2,872
1,731
113
Texas
#11
I usually avoid long winded accusations framed in generalities.
Purely from anecdotal evidence, I find these to be categorically wrong. In my travels I find that there are many who preach that are sincerely inspired.
Now honestly I don't bother with mega churches or charismatic non-denominational churches. So my experience is limited to some degree.
 

Bingo

Well-known member
Feb 9, 2019
5,830
3,638
113
#12
"Contempt in any form is kin to anger, said to be an abomination. Often in the intellectual
world, truth is offensive and also often displays doubt in what is perceived as differences
in ones own comprehended understanding of not knowing."
'Praise God'.........:)
 

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NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#13
"Most 'preachers' in today’s world are at the 30% spiritual level and as a result they are neither able to understand the true implied meaning of the Scriptures they quote, nor have they experienced first-hand everything that has been written. Thus, the possibility of leading the audience astray is high."
'Praise God'

Actually, never put a number to it. But, I'd say that's being very generous to most of 'em!

(true story....mine...lol) After I experienced an "event", to which the only Biblical comparison, I could relate it to was the the "Great and Terrible Day of the Lord?" (to which I've described it in more fuller detail, more times then once in here. posted 3 er 4 times in this thread page 2 and onwards)

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...god-right-now-what-would-you-tell-him.158806/

After that, I ordered a home school course from Moody. I finished and turned in my first lesson, and as I was making ready to start the 2nd lesson, His voice came and asked me: "You want "them" to teach you, or Me?" Couldn't close those books fast enough! Never looked at 'em again. Now, I don't even know, nor care whatever became of 'em. That was 30+ years ago.

Although, I would say with much confidence that those 30%'ers, are quite capable concerning ones' obtaining salvation in Christ. I can also say (which is why I concur with your 30% number), with just as much certainty, that they are just as incapable of thier assuring of one's keeping one's election assured.
 

Bingo

Well-known member
Feb 9, 2019
5,830
3,638
113
#14
Actually, never put a number to it. But, I'd say that's being very generous to most of 'em!

(true story....mine...lol) After I experienced an "event", to which the only Biblical comparison, I could relate it to was the the "Great and Terrible Day of the Lord?" (to which I've described it in more fuller detail, more times then once in here. posted 3 er 4 times in this thread page 2 and onwards)

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...god-right-now-what-would-you-tell-him.158806/

After that, I ordered a home school course from Moody. I finished and turned in my first lesson, and as I was making ready to start the 2nd lesson, His voice came and asked me: "You want "them" to teach you, or Me?" Couldn't close those books fast enough! Never looked at 'em again. Now, I don't even know, nor care whatever became of 'em. That was 30+ years ago.

Although, I would say with much confidence that those 30%'ers, are quite capable concerning ones' obtaining salvation in Christ. I can also say (which is why I concur with your 30% number), with just as much certainty, that they are just as incapable of thier assuring of one's keeping one's election assured.
:)
"Political or religious correctness is always in some order, as we live in a world out of order.
In today's restlessness, lies a profound reality of truth...we as a society have lost our spiritual equilibrium.
Myself, you and everyone has contributed to this by being saturated with deceptive practices of the 'adversary'
of many 'faces'. The solution, there is none. Is not God's love a tough love. We need to be tough
and bold in our love of Christ our Lord God, and loving one another, whatsoever the way one may choose
to define their faith. Unity of one purpose, as to share the glory of God in today's world has been
drastically fragmented by mankind's imaginary 'thinking'. Free will does have grave consequences."
'Praise God'.....:)
 

Attachments

Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,375
113
#15
Cease striving and know that I am God;
I will be exalted among the nations;
I will be exalted in the earth.
(Psalm 46:10)
Amen and from the rising of the Sun to it's setting his NAME will be great among the Gentiles.....and EVERY KNEE WILL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESS to the glory of God......
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
6,989
2,239
113
#17
There was a danger of our thrusting ourselves between men and the Gospels, and refusing to leave the individual man alone with the sayings of Jesus.
There was a danger that we should offer them a Jesus who was too small, because we had forced Him into conformity with our human standards and human psychology. To see that, one need only read the Lives of Jesus written since the 'sixties, and notice what they have made of the great imperious sayings of the Lord, how they have weakened down His imperative world-contemning demands upon individuals, that He might not come into conflict with our ethical ideals, and might tune His denial of the world to our acceptance of it. Many of the greatest sayings are found lying in a corner like explosive shells from which the charges have been removed. No small portion of elemental religious power needed to be drawn off from His sayings to prevent them from conflicting with our system of religious world-acceptance. We have made Jesus hold another language with our time from that which He really held.
In the process we ourselves have been enfeebled, and have robbed our own thoughts of their vigour in order to project them back into history and make them speak to us out of the past. It is nothing less than a misfortune for modern theology that it mixes history with everything and ends by being proud of the skill with which it finds its own thoughts— even to its beggarly pseudo-metaphysic with which it has banished genuine speculative metaphysic from the sphere of religion—in Jesus, and represents Him as expressing them. It had almost deserved the reproach: "he who putteth his hand to the plough, and looketh back, is not fit for the Kingdom of God."
It was no small matter, therefore, that in the course of the critical study of the Life of Jesus, after a resistance lasting for two generations, during which first one expedient was tried and then another, theology was forced by genuine history to begin to doubt the artificial history with which it had thought to give new life to our Christianity, and to yield to the facts, which, as Wrede strikingly said, are sometimes the most radical critics of all. History will force it to find a way to transcend history, and to fight for the lordship and rule of Jesus over this world with weapons tempered in a different forge.
We are experiencing what Paul experienced. In the very moment when we were coming nearer to the historical Jesus than men had ever come before, and were already stretching out our hands to draw Him into our own time, we have been obliged to give up the attempt and acknowledge our failure in that paradoxical saying: "If we have known Christ after the flesh yet henceforth know we Him no more." And further we must be prepared to find that the historical knowledge of the personality and life of Jesus will not be a help, but perhaps even an offence to religion.
But the truth is, it is not Jesus as historically known, but Jesus as spiritually arisen within men, who is significant for our time and can help it. Not the historical Jesus, but the spirit which goes forth from Him and in the spirits of men strives for new influence and rule, is that which overcomes the world.

( anonymous )
What you say has much truth to it, but there are other things that are happening today that we also must know and understand.

History is almost always distorted in the telling of it. It is inevitable because it can be done so innocently by telling of only one side pertaining to any subject. Yet, it takes an understanding of the background of any scripture. We must know of how the world was that Moses lived in and the culture of the people Moses interacted with to fully understand the spiritual messages of Moses. That is so of any culture spoken of in scripture. Because there has been more and more findings, more understanding of different historical times, we have more facts of history available to us today than ever before. If you read the books put out be men who have worked with the dead sea scrolls, you find much of what they learned and wrote about a help to understanding God.

This understanding has also been used as you say, and it is a history without the spirit of the Lord in it.

Not long ago TV gave a secular commentary on the book of Genesis, given by a charismatic speaker who oozed a convincing, sensible personality. It was the book of Genesis without God. All the facts given on this TV program could be verified, and yet without including God, it was completely misleading.
 

Bingo

Well-known member
Feb 9, 2019
5,830
3,638
113
#18
What you say has much truth to it, but there are other things that are happening today that we also must know and understand.

History is almost always distorted in the telling of it. It is inevitable because it can be done so innocently by telling of only one side pertaining to any subject. Yet, it takes an understanding of the background of any scripture. We must know of how the world was that Moses lived in and the culture of the people Moses interacted with to fully understand the spiritual messages of Moses. That is so of any culture spoken of in scripture. Because there has been more and more findings, more understanding of different historical times, we have more facts of history available to us today than ever before. If you read the books put out be men who have worked with the dead sea scrolls, you find much of what they learned and wrote about a help to understanding God.

This understanding has also been used as you say, and it is a history without the spirit of the Lord in it.

Not long ago TV gave a secular commentary on the book of Genesis, given by a charismatic speaker who oozed a convincing, sensible personality. It was the book of Genesis without God. All the facts given on this TV program could be verified, and yet without including God, it was completely misleading.
"Thanks for sharing. A statement shared to ponder on was intended, but comments are always interesting.
As we live and learn in this age...in spirit and truth may have gone with the wind. Thank God for a love
with no end. Spiritual beings having a human experience can be a perplexing place we find life to be,
here in the now."
'Praise God'...:)
 

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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,223
2,993
113
#19
Seems to me for someone to know someone else is at the 30% level, they themselves would have to be at the 100% level. Is that where you are at?
Actually, never put a number to it. But, I'd say that's being very generous to most of 'em!

(true story....mine...lol) After I experienced an "event", to which the only Biblical comparison, I could relate it to was the the "Great and Terrible Day of the Lord?" (to which I've described it in more fuller detail, more times then once in here. posted 3 er 4 times in this thread page 2 and onwards)

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...god-right-now-what-would-you-tell-him.158806/

After that, I ordered a home school course from Moody. I finished and turned in my first lesson, and as I was making ready to start the 2nd lesson, His voice came and asked me: "You want "them" to teach you, or Me?" Couldn't close those books fast enough! Never looked at 'em again. Now, I don't even know, nor care whatever became of 'em. That was 30+ years ago.

Although, I would say with much confidence that those 30%'ers, are quite capable concerning ones' obtaining salvation in Christ. I can also say (which is why I concur with your 30% number), with just as much certainty, that they are just as incapable of thier assuring of one's keeping one's election assured.
I think God does this on purpose for our growth and development.

There is definitely a call for some people with the gift to encourage people to come to Christ. But this is mostly the milk of the word. Those with this call would not agree. They would think they are doctorates in the Will of God.

But as we grow in Grace and work out our own Salvation we learn that there is much more to Christianity than the beginning of Salvation.

Don't think I am knocking these beginning stages. I love the preachers who are called to this and I love (most of) what they preach.

But then the question begs "I am saved, now what?". Or even more important "Am I truly Saved?"


On a side note I once had the Lord say to me also "Men cannot give you what I give you". These seemingly small statements show us where our reliance must always be. Learning from and relying on the Lord rather than the teachings of your denomination or preacher/pastor.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
33,064
11,302
113
#20
Seems to me for someone to know someone else is at the 30% level, they themselves would have to be at the 100% level. Is that where you are at?
well, maybe minimally, they would have to be at 31%

i can tell someone is not as good of a racquetball player than me, if we play a match, and if they aren't i could i guess assign a measure to how 'beneath' my skill theirs is. but i'm not a 'perfect' racquetball player -- and if i play someone better than me, i can discern that too, and i would have a harder time ascribing a number to that sort of player. all i could really legitimately say is, if for example i have 35% racquetball prowess, that that person has 36% or better.