Holiness!
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M
Originally Posted by MaggieMye
MaggieMye, if this is true, and it is, wouldn't you consider this emotional sickness as chastisement resulting from the sin of the wife who did not submit to the authority of her husband who is over her in the Lord (1Cor 11:3)? And for her to be healed of this sickness should she repent in her heart to the Lord and her husband so that God could give her grace and restore her?" The question is this: Are the husbands doing what is listed below? Because if they are, no wife in her right mind would ever not want to submit to such a LOVING husband. If a man loves a woman and honors her and respects her and protects her, to the point of being willing to DIE for her, what reason could there possibly BE for not submitting?
Because there are things in her heart that she is not willing to let God deal with and crucify. After all the woman is also an individual with free volition. And see below:
The problem is is that that KIND of LOVE is non-existent at the worst and RARE at best. Only a woman that was full of rebellion and in need of deliverance or possibly sound teaching (which few are humble enough to give) would even desire to not submit to the earthly example of Christ that is supposed to be her husband. The responsibility does not lie with the wife. It lies with the man. Just as in the garden, Adam sherked his responsibility over his wife by standing right beside her and not stopping her from eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
You blame Adam for the woman being deceived and beguiled by the serpent. She had free volition, she listened, rationalized and took of the fruit. Do not the scriptures say... I did not say that Adam was decieved. The garden and all that was in it was his RESPONSIBILITY...Which he negated by standing by and not stopping Eve.
1Tim 2: and 2Cor 11:3 do not negate Adam's responsibility...Adam, BTW was the one God told not to eat. Eve got that from ADam, not directly from God.
In your eyes the wife has an excuse for what she does and how she behaves, it's her husband's fault, he doesn't love me enough, he does not respect or honor me. What you are saying here is just plain silly. God back and read what I wrote. Are you telling us that she is not responsible to live according to knowledge and the word that she has been taught? Whether Adam was with her or not, she had been taught and she had free volition and she made an error when she gave ear to what the serpent was telling her and was beguiled. She doubted and disobeyed. Adam was in charge of her and the rest of the garden.
If the woman was not responsible for her actions when she listened to the serpent, and she ate and also gave to her husband, why did God declare that she would have travail in child bearing? They both sinned, but the responsibility lies with ADAM.
What women are not taught is that by submitting to the man when there is disagreement and they HAVE PRAYED TOGETHER, but do not come to agreement, by submitting to the man she frees herself of ALL RESPONSIBILITY for the outcome or consequences of his decision. The only confession of sin and repenting that will ever have to be done will be on the man's part and that would be because he did not listen to the Lord.
Abraham would not listen to God and cast out the bond woman and her child, Verse? so God spoke to Sara and she informed her husband Abraham to cast her out with her son. She did not go along with Abraham's sentimental love that he had for Hagar and Ishmael. Abraham obeyed and cast them out. Sara also obeyed Abraham and called him lord, whose daughters you are...
MaggieMye, you are an individual believer, if you prayed and heard from God, knowing that your husband was leading you in the wrong way, wouldn't you resist as Sara did and communicate to your husband what God told you hoping that he would humble himself and obey the Lord? The key word is is 'hoping' he would humble himself. I can pray, but that doesn't mean I'm right in the matter or that my husband will seek wisdom on the matter. The decision and the consequences are his and his alone, for he is the head of the house.
MaggieMye, if this is true, and it is, wouldn't you consider this emotional sickness as chastisement resulting from the sin of the wife who did not submit to the authority of her husband who is over her in the Lord (1Cor 11:3)? And for her to be healed of this sickness should she repent in her heart to the Lord and her husband so that God could give her grace and restore her?" The question is this: Are the husbands doing what is listed below? Because if they are, no wife in her right mind would ever not want to submit to such a LOVING husband. If a man loves a woman and honors her and respects her and protects her, to the point of being willing to DIE for her, what reason could there possibly BE for not submitting?
Because there are things in her heart that she is not willing to let God deal with and crucify. After all the woman is also an individual with free volition. And see below:
The problem is is that that KIND of LOVE is non-existent at the worst and RARE at best. Only a woman that was full of rebellion and in need of deliverance or possibly sound teaching (which few are humble enough to give) would even desire to not submit to the earthly example of Christ that is supposed to be her husband. The responsibility does not lie with the wife. It lies with the man. Just as in the garden, Adam sherked his responsibility over his wife by standing right beside her and not stopping her from eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
You blame Adam for the woman being deceived and beguiled by the serpent. She had free volition, she listened, rationalized and took of the fruit. Do not the scriptures say... I did not say that Adam was decieved. The garden and all that was in it was his RESPONSIBILITY...Which he negated by standing by and not stopping Eve.
1Tim 2: and 2Cor 11:3 do not negate Adam's responsibility...Adam, BTW was the one God told not to eat. Eve got that from ADam, not directly from God.
In your eyes the wife has an excuse for what she does and how she behaves, it's her husband's fault, he doesn't love me enough, he does not respect or honor me. What you are saying here is just plain silly. God back and read what I wrote. Are you telling us that she is not responsible to live according to knowledge and the word that she has been taught? Whether Adam was with her or not, she had been taught and she had free volition and she made an error when she gave ear to what the serpent was telling her and was beguiled. She doubted and disobeyed. Adam was in charge of her and the rest of the garden.
If the woman was not responsible for her actions when she listened to the serpent, and she ate and also gave to her husband, why did God declare that she would have travail in child bearing? They both sinned, but the responsibility lies with ADAM.
What women are not taught is that by submitting to the man when there is disagreement and they HAVE PRAYED TOGETHER, but do not come to agreement, by submitting to the man she frees herself of ALL RESPONSIBILITY for the outcome or consequences of his decision. The only confession of sin and repenting that will ever have to be done will be on the man's part and that would be because he did not listen to the Lord.
Abraham would not listen to God and cast out the bond woman and her child, Verse? so God spoke to Sara and she informed her husband Abraham to cast her out with her son. She did not go along with Abraham's sentimental love that he had for Hagar and Ishmael. Abraham obeyed and cast them out. Sara also obeyed Abraham and called him lord, whose daughters you are...
MaggieMye, you are an individual believer, if you prayed and heard from God, knowing that your husband was leading you in the wrong way, wouldn't you resist as Sara did and communicate to your husband what God told you hoping that he would humble himself and obey the Lord? The key word is is 'hoping' he would humble himself. I can pray, but that doesn't mean I'm right in the matter or that my husband will seek wisdom on the matter. The decision and the consequences are his and his alone, for he is the head of the house.
D
I honestly and 100% believe that anyone that loves their spouse, or significant other, would die for them in a heartbeat, without hesitation, if dying for them would save them from harm in any way.
I know I would do that for my future spouse, or even my significant other that I am with at the moment. I would have said the same for any girlfriend I've ever had that I truly loved.
Anyone that would not die for their spouse does not know what true love really means. I know the girl that I'm with would die for me if it came down to it to, just as I would for her.
As far as the rest, Love should ALWAYS come first. As far as being obedient, it only applies if both are following the Word of the Lord, and they both live as he taught us to. If not, then by no means should any wife EVER be obedient to a man that does not love the Lord like she does.
IF both love the Lord, and follow His teachings, then yes, the wife should be obedient in things such as biblical matters. If the subject is about Christianity and worshiping, the husband is the patriarch of the family, and he should lead by example. That being said, the wife is no less of a leader in the family than the man. He should be obedient to her as well, but in religious matters, Eve was seduced by the snake, while Adam was not. Women could be led astray more easily than a man could, at least at the most basic level. Not everyone is the same, however, and some men NEED their wives to lead them in spiritual matters.
This is my two cents. To simply say that the wife should be completely obedient to the husband is false, however. That would not be a healthy family environment whatsoever.
I know I would do that for my future spouse, or even my significant other that I am with at the moment. I would have said the same for any girlfriend I've ever had that I truly loved.
Anyone that would not die for their spouse does not know what true love really means. I know the girl that I'm with would die for me if it came down to it to, just as I would for her.
As far as the rest, Love should ALWAYS come first. As far as being obedient, it only applies if both are following the Word of the Lord, and they both live as he taught us to. If not, then by no means should any wife EVER be obedient to a man that does not love the Lord like she does.
IF both love the Lord, and follow His teachings, then yes, the wife should be obedient in things such as biblical matters. If the subject is about Christianity and worshiping, the husband is the patriarch of the family, and he should lead by example. That being said, the wife is no less of a leader in the family than the man. He should be obedient to her as well, but in religious matters, Eve was seduced by the snake, while Adam was not. Women could be led astray more easily than a man could, at least at the most basic level. Not everyone is the same, however, and some men NEED their wives to lead them in spiritual matters.
This is my two cents. To simply say that the wife should be completely obedient to the husband is false, however. That would not be a healthy family environment whatsoever.
D
TO ADD TO EVERYTHING:
When Paul said that women should remain silent in church, be obedient to men, and so on and so forth... YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THE CONTEXT OF IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART, OF WHICH MANY OF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND, DO NOT CARE TO LEARN, AND ARE MISLED YOURSELVES IN YOUR OWN FALSE RIGHTEOUS HOLIER THAN THOU ATTITUDES. PLEASE READ AND LEARN SCRIPTURE, THEN READ AND LEARN THE CONTEXT OF THAT SCRIPTURE BEFORE YOU TRY TO MISLEAD THE MASSES!
The context of what Paul was saying is EVERYTHING in these verses. Paul was talking to the Church of CORINTH, of which had a MUCH different culture than any other in the known world at that time, or even the known world today.
PLEASE UNDERSTAND! Jonathan, I truly hope you don't pull that attitude on your wife, using scripture to push her and bring her down, because she possibly could show you a lot and you would have a lot to learn about interpreting scripture.
CORINTH had a culture where the WOMAN was seen as being ABOVE MEN. If you look at it in today's standards, it was full of insane man hating feminists, where the MEN were subservant to the women, and the women were naturally seen as above men in all things. Men were the second-class citizens in that culture, whereas today, women are either equal, or THEY are second-class.
These versus that Paul wrote to the Church of Corinth have been misunderstood for so long, and it has demoralized and unfairly knocked down women for way too long in our history.
The reason Paul wrote what he did is for obvious reasons. As a history major, I study the context of these things, and so I find it naturally annoying when people misrepresent and/or misinterpret scripture for their own benefit. WOMEN ARE NOT SECOND-CLASS CITIZENS. Paul wrote what he did, because the women in Corinth were unable to accept men leading the church at that time, and they were causing discourse, strife, and unnatural enmity between the Christian men and the Christian women members of that church.
Paul did the only reasonable solution in that church, which was to tell the women to shut up, sit down, stop causing problems, listen to the men, and STOP HARMING THE CHURCH. That is what they were doing, because of the CULTURE of that area.
This does NOT apply today, so us men would do well to understand that we have no right to oppress women, simply because we do not read the context of what is going in in scripture. Things can be misinterpreted SO EASY by those who want to mold scripture for their own will, and yet, God hates when we do that. The Lord warned about those who would do this, and He said they will be judged for their wickedness. Do not fall into that trap.
I'm responding quickly, but if I need to make a topic about this, I will, and I will continue to prove anyone that disagrees wrong with scripture, historical references, and even commentary and concordances (if that's what it takes), along with many famous Christian men and women who agree. Knowing the context of what you are reading in scripture is EVERYTHING, so why do many of you refuse to understand WHAT you are reading and why? You are doing a great injustice by oppressing ANYONE based on your own misinterpretations of the roles of others that are not like yourself.
When Paul said that women should remain silent in church, be obedient to men, and so on and so forth... YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THE CONTEXT OF IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART, OF WHICH MANY OF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND, DO NOT CARE TO LEARN, AND ARE MISLED YOURSELVES IN YOUR OWN FALSE RIGHTEOUS HOLIER THAN THOU ATTITUDES. PLEASE READ AND LEARN SCRIPTURE, THEN READ AND LEARN THE CONTEXT OF THAT SCRIPTURE BEFORE YOU TRY TO MISLEAD THE MASSES!
The context of what Paul was saying is EVERYTHING in these verses. Paul was talking to the Church of CORINTH, of which had a MUCH different culture than any other in the known world at that time, or even the known world today.
PLEASE UNDERSTAND! Jonathan, I truly hope you don't pull that attitude on your wife, using scripture to push her and bring her down, because she possibly could show you a lot and you would have a lot to learn about interpreting scripture.
CORINTH had a culture where the WOMAN was seen as being ABOVE MEN. If you look at it in today's standards, it was full of insane man hating feminists, where the MEN were subservant to the women, and the women were naturally seen as above men in all things. Men were the second-class citizens in that culture, whereas today, women are either equal, or THEY are second-class.
These versus that Paul wrote to the Church of Corinth have been misunderstood for so long, and it has demoralized and unfairly knocked down women for way too long in our history.
The reason Paul wrote what he did is for obvious reasons. As a history major, I study the context of these things, and so I find it naturally annoying when people misrepresent and/or misinterpret scripture for their own benefit. WOMEN ARE NOT SECOND-CLASS CITIZENS. Paul wrote what he did, because the women in Corinth were unable to accept men leading the church at that time, and they were causing discourse, strife, and unnatural enmity between the Christian men and the Christian women members of that church.
Paul did the only reasonable solution in that church, which was to tell the women to shut up, sit down, stop causing problems, listen to the men, and STOP HARMING THE CHURCH. That is what they were doing, because of the CULTURE of that area.
This does NOT apply today, so us men would do well to understand that we have no right to oppress women, simply because we do not read the context of what is going in in scripture. Things can be misinterpreted SO EASY by those who want to mold scripture for their own will, and yet, God hates when we do that. The Lord warned about those who would do this, and He said they will be judged for their wickedness. Do not fall into that trap.
I'm responding quickly, but if I need to make a topic about this, I will, and I will continue to prove anyone that disagrees wrong with scripture, historical references, and even commentary and concordances (if that's what it takes), along with many famous Christian men and women who agree. Knowing the context of what you are reading in scripture is EVERYTHING, so why do many of you refuse to understand WHAT you are reading and why? You are doing a great injustice by oppressing ANYONE based on your own misinterpretations of the roles of others that are not like yourself.
D
Thank you for correctly righting the wrongs of those men/women who have been led astray by misinterpreting scripture for their own gain and benefit, which is wicked in the eyes of the Lord.
I feel bad for all those who do not read into the context of what each and every scripture verse is saying. They are ignorant, do not care to learn the truth, and they should know better. I feel bad for the women who have been oppressed by men who wrongly push them down, simply based on misinterpreting the Lord's teaching.
Thank you for standing up for what is right. I am in no way a supporter of MODERN DAY feminism, where (some) women view themselves as above men, but I am all for the equalization of both men and women, both within their rightful and just places in a family structure as the Lord defined it for us.
Men are indeed the patriarchs of the family, but no man should ever think he is above a woman. Women have their own place that the Lord defined, and there have been MANY spiritual leaders in scripture that were women. If we ignored those women in scripture based on ignoring the context of what Paul said to the Church of Corinth, we are not only lying to ourselves and others, but we are denying the Power of the Lord, who never contradicts Himself in anything He does.
I feel bad for all those who do not read into the context of what each and every scripture verse is saying. They are ignorant, do not care to learn the truth, and they should know better. I feel bad for the women who have been oppressed by men who wrongly push them down, simply based on misinterpreting the Lord's teaching.
Thank you for standing up for what is right. I am in no way a supporter of MODERN DAY feminism, where (some) women view themselves as above men, but I am all for the equalization of both men and women, both within their rightful and just places in a family structure as the Lord defined it for us.
Men are indeed the patriarchs of the family, but no man should ever think he is above a woman. Women have their own place that the Lord defined, and there have been MANY spiritual leaders in scripture that were women. If we ignored those women in scripture based on ignoring the context of what Paul said to the Church of Corinth, we are not only lying to ourselves and others, but we are denying the Power of the Lord, who never contradicts Himself in anything He does.
We are also to lay our lives down for one another, the brethren (1Jn 3:16). Tell me MaggieMye, if you saw a prostitute all drugged up, walk out in the middle of a busy street with a truck coming, would you run and knock her out of the way and give up your life so that she could have an opportunity in this life to believe on the One that saved and cleansed you from all your sins? Or, would you let the truck hit her and conclude that it must have been the wages of sin that resulted in her death because of her lifestyle? Didn't Christ give up His life when we were enemies, with deceitful and desperately wicked hearts who were dead in trespasses and sins, that we might come to Him and believe? Do we lay our lives down even if it means that we die that others may live?
Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the church and gave Himself for it. This is what the scriptures teach and you teach that if the husband loves his wife this way, she shouldn't have a problem responding to her husband. Think of this. Christ loves the church and laid His life down but has the church responded to His perfect love and laid down life like she should? Christ has given the church good knowledge but the church has had some problems responding to the bridegroom. The church does not always want to reciprocate that love and obey what Christ is calling her to do. He will never leave or forsake her nor will He condemn her, but she is not always willing and obedient. She sins at times and has to be chastised and disciplined. She is not always the best responder but when she humbles herself she will always get mercy and grace.
It follows that even when the husband (who is not perfect like Christ in his initiations) is doing all he can, his wife may act just like the church has from time to time and have problems responding to her head. He stills loves her and forgives her but she must learn to submit to that love so that all that she fears will be cast out. If she responds to His initiations, depression will go, fear will go, anxiety and stress will go, insecurities will go, double-mindedness will go and she will learn how to be the responder that Christ is making her to be.
Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the church and gave Himself for it. This is what the scriptures teach and you teach that if the husband loves his wife this way, she shouldn't have a problem responding to her husband. Think of this. Christ loves the church and laid His life down but has the church responded to His perfect love and laid down life like she should? Christ has given the church good knowledge but the church has had some problems responding to the bridegroom. The church does not always want to reciprocate that love and obey what Christ is calling her to do. He will never leave or forsake her nor will He condemn her, but she is not always willing and obedient. She sins at times and has to be chastised and disciplined. She is not always the best responder but when she humbles herself she will always get mercy and grace.
It follows that even when the husband (who is not perfect like Christ in his initiations) is doing all he can, his wife may act just like the church has from time to time and have problems responding to her head. He stills loves her and forgives her but she must learn to submit to that love so that all that she fears will be cast out. If she responds to His initiations, depression will go, fear will go, anxiety and stress will go, insecurities will go, double-mindedness will go and she will learn how to be the responder that Christ is making her to be.